Time Warp HOF Ballot 1971

[jdw]

As Pete pointed out in another thread, the Time Warp Baseball League is on an extended hiatus midway through the 1971 season and we're not sure if it's going to come back. One of the open items we have for the current season is the annual Hall of Fame balloting.

This is a loaded class of newcomers. It includes the only player to reach 3000 hits who played the majority of his career in the Live Era (1946-71). It includes four players who ranked #4, #5, #6 and #11 all-time in HR's when they retired at the end of 1965. It includes a 294 game winner and a 272 game winner who combined to win five Pitcher of the Year awards. It also includes a pitcher widely considered to be one of the two best post season pitchers of all-time.

A couple of us throught that if the league ends up being in permanent hiatus, that having these players get their shot on the ballot might be a decent way to wrap it.


John

[jdw]

1936 Initial Ballot Results, 1937 Results, 1938 Results, 1939 Results, 1940 Results, 1941 Results, 1942 Results, 1943 Results, 1944 Results, 1945 Results, 1946 Results, 1947 Results, 1948 Results, 1949 Results, 1950 Results, 1951 Results, 1952 Results, 1953 Results, 1954 Results, 1955 Results, 1956 Results, 1957 Results, 1958 Results, 1959 Results, 1960 Results (lost in board crash), 1961 Results, 1962 Results, 1963 Results, 1964 Results, 1965 Results, 1966 Results, 1967 Results, 1968 Results, 1969 Results, 1970 Results

For one of the rare times in its history, no one was elected from the BBWAA balloting in 1970 to the RL HOF. Dave Bancroft, Jake Beckley, Chick Hafey, Harry Hooper, Joe Kelley and Rube Marquard were elected in what would become seen by some as the most infamous class of VC picks since the 1945-46 packing of the Hall. Yankees GM George Weiss was elected by the VC as a Executive. Satchel Paige was the first Negro League player elected to the Hall by the Special Committee.

All players who received at least 5% of votes on the last ballot were retained for this ballot. I also added players who became eligible for the ballot in 1970 (retired after 1964 season).

All players not receiving 5% of votes on this ballot will be removed. Also, all players who have been retired for 20 years fall off this ballot if not elected.

Vote for as many or as few as you want. Max votes are 10.

HOF Standard: 50 is considered an average HOF'er. 100 is max.

PLEASE NOTE:
Players who lost service time to the war are denoted with: WWII

Note: OPS+ and ERA+ are listed for all players now. 100 is considered league average. The higher the # the better the player. This lets you see how they did in relation to the players of their generation while also letting you compare their dominance of the league to players from different eras.

[jdw]

Here's all HOF'er OPS+ for reference:

189 - Woody Woodson
186 - Ray Kress
166 - Dark Horse Allen
163 - Jason Tedford
159 - Whitey Kohse
158 - Oscar Vancini
152 - Jed Burke
152 - Patrick Seifried
149 - Genaro Nunez
148 - Whiskey Allen
148 - Ken Chaucer
146 - Peaches Badeau
145 - Blake Crocitto
142 - Hershel Lee
141 - Ben Baum
141 - Tee Carver
141 - Ogden Wing
140 - Bud Breckenridge
140 - John Falise
140 - Ray Brown
140 - Scott Podlasek
140 - Dale Lamberty
140 - Bobby Martin
139 - Dewey Mickelsen
139 - Tom Howard
138 - Tyrell Chestnut
138 - Wolter Tjeenk-Willink
137 - Kid Fite
137 - Will Miller
137 - Steven Bussell
137 - Ted McMurray
136 - Harry Cohan
136 - Jared Jarry
135 - John Klehammer
135 - Jimmy Ditty
134 - Carl Kahle
133 - Slap Hertzog
133 - Flaky Arsenault
133 - Roy Hobbs
133 - Dave Arkless
133 - Matt Perly
133 - Mark Silcox
132 - Adolf Greisbach
132 - John Schmieder
132 - Cookie Parrish
131 - Chuck Rauch
131 - Nick Graves
130 - Sunny Davie
129 - Tom Turley
129 - George Ward
129 - Ping Hung
129 - Herman Dunkel
129 - Moonlight Graham
128 - Morris Lutske
127 - Campbell Ditty
127 - Troy Kinnear
127 - Mike Fellner
126 - Bull Zegri
125 - Herm Vardaman
124 - Levi Walls
123 - Dale Reneau
123 - Alan Liao
122 - Sam Kass
122 - Sal Rossi
121 - Quenton Misisca
120 - Ervin Skjerly
118 - Gus Kahle
114 - Jonny Perly
114 - Jon Minzey
110 - David McAuliffe
110 - Ted Stuart
102 - Harry Finley

[jdw]

Batters

Current Career Leaders (Click to View Entire List):
AVG: .364
Hits: 4000
HR: 585
RBI: 1906
2B: 665
BB: 1962
R: 2004
SB: 1297



Al Arsenault, LF, Last Season: 1950, HOF Standard: 47
2359 H, 557 2B, 285 HR, 1458 RBI, 1341 R
414 K, 941 BB, 129 SB
.287 AVG, .360 OBP, .494 SLG, .854 OPS
OPS+: 135
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: NONE
Pennants: 4
WS Victories: 2
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: 2B 2, 3B 1, RBI 1
Career Top 25: HR (16), RBI (22), 2B (10)
Final Year on Ballot: 1971



Maurice Misisca, 3B, Last Season: 1950, HOF Standard: 34
1657 H, 214 2B, 233 HR, 944 RBI, 849 R
453 K, 674 BB, 68 SB
.291 AVG, .367 OBP, .467 SLG, .835 OPS
OPS+: 137
BOY Award: 1943, 1944, 1946
ROY Award: 1931
Gold Gloves: NONE
Pennants: 4
WS Victories: 3
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: OBP 2, SLG 2, OPS 1, HR 2, RBI 1
Career Top 25: NONE
Final Year on Ballot: 1971



Genarito Nunez, 3B/1B, Last Season: 1954, HOF Standard: 49
2432 H, 425 2B, 144 HR, 1151 RBI, 1159 R
554 K, 567 BB, 141 SB
.314 AVG, .358 OBP, .454 SLG, .812 OPS
WWII - 2 Yrs
OPS+: 127
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: NONE
Pennants: 3
WS Victories: 1
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: Hits 1, 2B 1
Career Top 25: NONE
Final Year on Ballot: 1975



Luther Ormiston, 3B, Last Season: 1956, HOF Standard: 38
1309 H, 262 2B, 281 HR, 1039 RBI, 888 R
614 K, 886 BB, 27 SB
.273 AVG, .385 OBP, .524 SLG, .909 OPS
OPS+: 150
BOY Award: 1948, 1952
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: NONE
Pennants: 5
WS Victories: 4
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: SLG 1, HR 2, RBI 4
Career Top 25: NONE
Final Year on Ballot: 1977



Lonny Arrendale, 1B, Last Season: 1958, HOF Standard: 38
2063 H, 238 2B, 324 HR, 1148 RBI, 1050 R
914 K, 979 BB, 11 SB
.306 AVG, .393 OBP, .495 SLG, .888 OPS
WWII - 1 Yr
OPS+: 147
BOY Award: 1949
ROY Award: 1944
Gold Gloves: 2
Pennants: 3
WS Victories: 2
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: NONE
Career Top 25: HR (24)
Final Year on Ballot: 1979



Bud Ayers, 3B, Last Season: 1959, HOF Standard: 44
2347 H, 393 2B, 261 HR, 1313 RBI, 1124 R
438 K, 811 BB, 3 SB
.290 AVG, .355 OBP, .443 SLG, .798 OPS
WWII - 1 Yr
OPS+: 121
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 2
Pennants: 3
WS Victories: 2
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: NONE
Career Top 25: NONE
Final Year on Ballot: 1980



Bobby Johnson, 1B, Last Season: 1960, HOF Standard: 29
1932 H, 380 2B, 363 HR, 1348 RBI, 989 R
861 K, 527 BB, 12 SB
.286 AVG, .338 OBP, .511 SLG, .849 OPS
WWII - 2 Yrs
OPS+: 133
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 4
Pennants: 3
WS Victories: 1
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: SLG 1, 2B 2, HR 1, RBI 2
Career Top 25: HR (11)
Final Year on Ballot: 1981



Ben Giordano, 1B, Last Season: 1961, HOF Standard: 31
2362 H, 274 2B, 224 HR, 1242 RBI, 999 R
584 K, 589 BB, 7 SB
.310 AVG, .359 OBP, .442 SLG, .801 OPS
OPS+: 124
BOY Award: 1953
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 1
Pennants: NONE
WS Victories: NONE
Batting Titles: 1957
Led League in: Hits 2, TB 1, RBI 1
Career Top 25: NONE
Final Year on Ballot: 1982



Ben Cook, 3B/CF, Last Season: 1961, HOF Standard: 36
1722 H, 175 2B, 129 HR, 665 RBI, 1254 R
476 K, 1391 BB, 575 SB
.260 AVG, .389 OBP, .371 SLG, .760 OPS
OPS+: 114
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: NONE
Pennants: 5
WS Victories: 3
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: Runs 2, SB 7, BB 5
Career Top 25: SB (19), BB (20)
Final Year on Ballot: 1982



Rudel Dietrich, CF, Last Season: 1963, HOF Standard: 48
2277 H, 380 2B, 203 HR, 1088 RBI, 1088 R
787 K, 875 BB, 20 SB
.313 AVG, .385 OBP, .473 SLG, .858 OPS
OPS+: 138
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 1
Pennants: NONE
WS Victories: NONE
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: Hits 1, 2B 3
Career Top 25: NONE
Final Year on Ballot: 1984



Biff Betters, C, Last Season: 1963, HOF Standard: 34
1937 H, 360 2B, 88 HR, 845 RBI, 791 R
730 K, 653 BB, 18 SB
.292 AVG, .355 OBP, .395 SLG, .751 OPS
OPS+: 110
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 5
Pennants: 3
WS Victories: 2
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: NONE
Career Top 25: NONE
Final Year on Ballot: 1984


NEW



Charlton Brown, 1B, Last Season: 1964
2039 H, 240 2B, 475 HR, 1329 RBI, 1173 R
817 K, 7052 BB, 7 SB
.303 AVG, .369 OBP, .564 SLG, .934 OPS
OPS+: 156
BOY Award: 1956, 1957, 1958, 1962
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: NONE
Pennants: 2
WS Victories: 1
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: HR 5, RBI 2, Runs 2, SLG 3, OPS 2, TB 5
Career Top 25: HR (5)
Final Year on Ballot: 1985



John Degal, C/3B, Last Season: 1965
2218 H, 183 2B, 482 HR, 1620 RBI, 1334 R
1043 K, 1050 BB, 13 SB
.280 AVG, .363 OBP, .493 SLG, .856 OPS
OPS+: 138
BOY Award: 1962*
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 1954 at C, 1961 at 3B
Pennants: 7
WS Victories: 5
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: HR 1, RBI 1, SLG 1, OPS 2
Career Top 25: HR (4), RBI (16)
Final Year on Ballot: 1985



Hans Habermehl, 2B, Last Season: 1965
3139 H, 404 2B, 267 HR, 1257 RBI, 1767 R
1335 K, 1250 BB, 542 SB
.306 AVG, .381 OBP, .454 SLG, .836 OPS
OPS+: 131
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: NONE
Pennants: 3
WS Victories: 2
Batting Titles: 1960
Led League in: Runs 1, Hits 3, 3B 1, SB 6
Career Top 25: Hits (16), Runs (5), SB (24)
Final Year on Ballot: 1986



William Perry, RF, Last Season: 1964
2510 H, 369 2B, 363 HR, 1521 RBI, 1544 R
855 K, 1199 BB, 172 SB
.282 AVG, .368 OBP, .467 SLG, .835 OPS
OPS+: 131
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: NONE
Pennants: 1
WS Victories: NONE
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: Runs 1
Career Top 25: HR (11), RBI (20)
Final Year on Ballot: 1985



Wilford Woodworth, 3B, Last Season: 1965
1663 H, 305 2B, 408 HR, 1278 RBI, 1141 R
1286 K, 1051 BB, 57 SB
.244 AVG, .350 OBP, .483 SLG, .833 OPS
OPS+: 128
BOY Award: 1955
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: NONE
Pennants: 2
WS Victories: 1
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: HR 1, SLG 1, TB 1
Career Top 25: HR (6)
Final Year on Ballot: 1985

[jdw]

Pitchers
Current Career Leaders (Click to View Entire List):
ERA: 2.10
W: 446
K: 4028
CG: 601
SHO: 95

Here's all HOF'er OPS+ for reference:

210 - Andrew Murphy
163 - Frank Smith
162 - Tim Lopresto
161 - Raymond Gindler
158 - Allen Albertini
157 - Jethro Lee
157 - Cecil Tan
145 - Punchy Cote
145 - Howard Adams
145 - Bourbon Allen Jr.
144 - Johnny Cakes Sutton
142 - Cotton Simson
138 - Dave McBean
137 - Mark Krosser
137 - Johnny Swinson
137 - Carpenter Erickson
136 - Bowie Castellon
135 - Ken Zinn
134 - Otto Kahle
134 - Scott Fenner
133 - Jassen Nelson
131 - Remmy Paul
131 - Luke Riley
131 - Tobe Palmer
129 - David Wiskersham
125 - Grady Ingram
124 - Bourbon Allen
124 - Art Booth
121 - Ahrend Nagel
120 - Terry Schukraft
116 - John Nolting
116 - Hal Andrew
115 - Mark Ponfick

[jdw]

Corky Stell, Last Season: 1956
163-108, 60.2%, 3.30 ERA
2409 IP, 820 BB, 986 K, 30 CG, 8 SHO, 1.27 WHIP
ERA+: 131
POY Award: 1949, 1952, 1953
ROY Award: NONE
Pennants: 4
World Championships: 4
WS Record: 2-2, 5.04 ERA
No-Hitters: NONE
Led League in: ERA 2, WHIP 1, Wins 2
Career Top 25: NONE
Final Year on Ballot: 1977



Bud Ulrich, Last Season: 1962, HOF Standard: 35
210-125, 62.7%, 3.88 ERA
3274.2 IP, 1411 BB, 2085 K, 73 CG, 16 SHO, 1.34 WHIP
ERA+: 108
POY Award: NONE
ROY Award: 1949
Pennants: 5
World Championships: 5
WS Record: 4-1, 4.77 ERA
No-Hitters: NONE
Led League in: NONE
Career Top 25: NONE
Final Year on Ballot: 1983



Lex Tjeenk-Willink, Last Season: 1964, HOF Standard: 46
245-170, 59.0%, 3.79 ERA
3877 IP, 1287 BB, 3069 K, 121 CG, 19 SHO, 1.19 WHIP
ERA+: 112
POY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Pennants: NONE
World Championships: NONE
WS Record: N/A
No-Hitters: 2
Led League in: Wins 1
Career Top 25: K's (10)
Final Year on Ballot: 1985


NEW



Martin Gwaltney, Last Season: 1965
294-155, 65.5%, 3.09 ERA
4229.1 IP, 1210 BB, 2975 K, 215 CG, 44 SHO, 1.15 WHIP
ERA+: 138
POY Award: 1953, 1957
ROY Award: NONE
Pennants: 2
World Championships: 1
WS Record: 1-2, 2.30 ERA
No-Hitters: NONE
Led League in: ERA 1, Wins 1, SHO 1, IP 2, WHIP 1
Career Top 25: Wins (19), K's (8)
Final Year on Ballot: 1986


Adam Sardina, Last Season: 1964
272-174, 61.0%, 3.46 ERA
4304.6 IP, 1621 BB, 2291 K, 262 CG, 44 SHO, 1.32 WHIP
ERA+: 125
POY Award: 1955, 1958, 1962
ROY Award: NONE
Pennants: 2
World Championships: 1
WS Record: 1-3, 5.77 ERA
No-Hitters: NONE
Led League in: Wins 3, SHO 2, IP 6,
Career Top 25: K's (19)
Final Year on Ballot: 1986


Hank Makris, Last Season: 1964
214-173, 55.3%, 3.48 ERA
3634.0 IP, 1092 BB, 1563 K, 166 CG, 32 SHO, 1.28 WHIP
ERA+: 124
POY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
GG Award: 1953, 1958, 1961, 1963
WS MVP: 1957, 1959
Pennants: 2
World Championships: 2
WS Record: 4-0, 0.82 ERA
No-Hitters: 2
Led League in: SHO 2,
Career Top 25: NONE
Final Year on Ballot: 1986

[jdw]

Lonny Arrendale
Charlton Brown
John Degal
Martin Gwaltney
Hans Habermehl
Maurice Misisca
Luther Ormiston
Adam Sardina
Corky Stell
Wilford Woodworth


John

[canadiancreed]

God damn this is a hard group to choose from

Lex Tjeenk-Willink
Martin Gwaltney - Gwaltney vs Makris, 1957. Quite possibly the two favourite games and what made that series a classic pitching matchup
Adam Sardina
Hank Makris - maybe it's a homer vote, but you wont' chance my mind that he was this generation's Mr. October.
Hans Habermehl,
John Degal
Charlton Brown
Bud Ayers
Genarito Nunez
Al Arsenault

Sorry Biff, I can't gtive you the homer vote in good consience

[jdw]

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

Martin Gwaltney - Gwaltney vs Makris, 1957. Quite possibly the two favourite games and what made that series a classic pitching matchup

In Game 1, Roger "Tricky McNicky" McNicholas laced a two out liner between Matt Praks and Del Yordy to score Chip "Buck Fifty" Sinton all the way from first to give the A's a 1-0 lead.

In the top of the 8th, Gwalt gave up a single to Teddy McMurray, struck out Yordy, gave up a single to Praks and walked Dennis Ward. A's Manager went to Tom Lentz out of the pen in one of the most controversial decisions in World Series history. Gwalt had thrown 116 pitches and clearly appeared to be losing it, making the decision to go to the pen a solid one. But Slap ignored his closer, Cal Granger. Not only did "Cardiac Cal" end up TWB's all-time leader with 390 saves, but in 1957 he set the all-time single season record with 38 saves. Cal was a legendary workhorse rather than a one-inning reliever, holding both the record for both career appearances and also relief innings. Failing to Granger was odd.

Lentz promptly threw a wild pitch that allowed McMurray to score from third to tie the game. Lentz then struck out Alton Kee and got Doug Williams out on a grounder to get out of the inning.

Makris set down the A's in order in the bottom of the 8th, including Todd Walker who pinch hit for Lentz. In the bottom of the 8th, rather than got to Granger, Hertzog went to Paul Alaimo. Bill Hall pinch hit for Makris to leadoff, and ripped a double in the left center gap. Walter Davis plated him with a single to make it 2-1. Reds relief ace Chris Delp came in to close out the 9th to give Cincy the first game of the series.

Cal Granger, one of the two greatest relievers in TWB history, not only wouldn't pitch in Game 1, but he wouldn't pitch in the entire Series.

The Reds held a 2-1 Series lead heading into Game 3 as the pitchers locked up again. The A's put singles by Hans Habermehl, Sinton and McNicholas together to take a 1-0 lead in the top of the 1st. A walk to Rob Bell, a double by Gwaltney and a single by Habermehl in the 4th made it 2-0. With runners on first and third, just one out and Emanuel Ryan at the player and 1957 AL Batter of the Year Pap Brown on deck, the A's had a chance to bust the game wide open. But if there was any single thing that Hank Makris was the master of, it was to induce ground balls when runners were on with his nasty sinkerball. That's exactly what he did as he got Railroad to bounce an easy one back up the box, which the four time Gold Glover Makris turned and tossed to second leading twelve-time Gold Glove shortstop Dennis Ward perfectly, who in turn easily hopped the sliding Ryan while flipping the ball down to five time Gold Glove first baseman Ted McMurray for the double play to end the inning. The legendary Red's Golden Infield doing what it did best in turning two.

The seemed to fire up the Reds bats in the bottom of the frame. Praks and Ward lined a pair of one out singles. Kee moved the runners over to second and third. With Doug Williams at the plate and Hank Markis on deck, Hertzog signaled Gwaltney to pitch to Williams.

Williams was twenty-four year old infielder who had been the hottest prospect in the signing class of 1951. He was so slow in developing that the team that signed him offloaded him in 1956 to the Pirates. After disappointing play in Pittsburgh, the Pirates moved him with All Star outfielder Praks to the Reds for hot pitching prospect Levi Sellers. The Reds were desperate to make a move as Ward had just gone down with a major injury that would send him to the disabled list for eight weeks in the middle of the pennant race. This opened a hole in the middle of the Golden Infield, with the Reds big groundball staff needing either a glove man at short, or a glove man at second that would allow Bobby Grissom to move to short. Williams was the most touted glove prospect at second of his generation, and also a capable glove at short. Reds General Manager Ron Bennarivo was quoted as telling Manager Pee Wee Osborne, "We need a patch for now and we'll sort out the gloves in the offseason."

With a healthy Ward back at short where he ranked with Ted Stuart as the best glove at the position in league history, the Reds platooned Grissom (.277/.342/.414/.756) and Williams (.282/.355/.481/.836 vs. LHP) at second. Williams was in the lineup for the two starts by Gwaltney, the famous "Longhorn Lefty".

One other interesting note.

Back in 1947 the Reds made the World Series for only the second time in the club's history. Ron Bennarivo was the manager at the time, while Carlyle "Pee Wee" Osborne was the star shortstop at the end of his career. The team Captain had already announced that it would be his final season.

As the season unfolded, the Reds engaged in a bitter pennant race with the great dynasty of the era, Bop Vacha's Phillies. While Skeeter Schaldemose anchored the offense and Ace Shipley was the ace of pitching staff, the club's inspiration was Osborne. At the end of July, he was hitting .304/.393/.383/.776. But age caught up with his swiftly in August, hitting .221 in the last two months of the seson.

As a local icon, he could kept his spot as his club finally made the Series for the first time in his career. Instead, Osborne lived up to the title of "team captain" going to Bennarivo and suggested that the club start John "Doc" Barton in his place in the Series. Barton closed the season well in a utility role, hitting .276/.391/.414/.805 in August and September while Osborne slide. Bennarivo took the advice of his Captain and penciled Barton into the lineup. Barton had a big Series, hitting .467/.619/.733/1.352 and teaming with Schaldemose (.313/.476/.438/.914) to force the Senators starters to go deep in counts and leave them tired later in games.

Game 3 was in Cincinnati after the teams split the two games in Washington. The Senators scored two in the top of the 8th to tie the game 5-5. Pinch hitter deluxe Pat Vega lead off the bottom of the 9th with a single. Pinch runner George Maringo stole second. After working the count to three balls and a strike, Doc Barton laced the biggest hit of his career - a walk off single to left that plated Maringo to give the Reds a 2-1 Series lead.

The Reds would take the next two games to close out the Series and win the first World Title in franchise history.

Back to 1957.

Runners on second and third. The great Longhorn Lefty on the mound with a 2-0 lead where a win would even the Series 2-2. Two outs, runners on second and third with the pitcher on deck. A platoon utilty infielder at the plate, in there for his glove and to face left handed pitching.

Williams crushed a ball to deep center that settled over the wall for a 3-2 Reds lead.

It was all Makris would need as he allowed just one hit and no walks in the fifth through eighth innings. Earl Hayne and Chris Delp would combine to set the A's down in order in the 9th to close the game out. 3-1 Series lead for the Reds.

The next day, a home run by Reds Captain McMurray and a single by William's platoon mate Grisson to score double play partner Ward would turn an early 1-0 A's lead into a Reds 2-1 win to clinch the Series.

The interesting note linking 1947 to 1957 beyond the obvious of Bennarivo moving from Manager to General Manager, Osborne from Captain to Manager, and utility infielder turned starter Barton getting a big hit in 1947 and utility infielder Williams getting a big hit in 1957?

Doug Williams would marry Doc Barton's daughter in 1960.

So yeah... I'm with Chris in my fondness for the 1957 Reds.


John

[jdw]

I apologize for the "rambling" in the middle of a HOF thread. With the hiatus, it's been a while since I've yammered about TWB. Chris talking about the Makris-Gwalt match-ups in 1957... cracking open the almanac for the year and looking at the box scores and game logs... looking at all those names from the "past" and remembering what they all meant to Chris and me (and of course to Eric as well)... made me want to share some of the memories.

I do miss the league a great deal, and it's ability to create new history each year. Who were going to end up being the "Doc", Ace, Skeeter, "Count", "Griss", "Longhorn Lefty" and plain old Hank of the 1971 Series? Every year started with a question like that.


John

[canadiancreed]

Originally Posted by jdw

I apologize for the "rambling" in the middle of a HOF thread. With the hiatus, it's been a while since I've yammered about TWB. Chris talking about the Makris-Gwalt match-ups in 1957... cracking open the almanac for the year and looking at the box scores and game logs... looking at all those names from the "past" and remembering what they all meant to Chris and me (and of course to Eric as well)... made me want to share some of the memories.

I do miss the league a great deal, and it's ability to create new history each year. Who were going to end up being the "Doc", Ace, Skeeter, "Count", "Griss", "Longhorn Lefty" and plain old Hank of the 1971 Series? Every year started with a question like that.


John

Damn good writeups dood. Damn good, and good to see that I wasnt' imagining those performances

[tward13]

Stell
Arrendale
Dietrich
C. Brown
Degal
Habermehl
Gwaltney
Sardina
Makris
Woodworth

[haggis007]

Hmmm, lots of strategic voting going on, it seems. . . .

don't close this without me, but its going to take me a while on this one. . .

[jeheinz72]

Quite a group here...

Arsenault
Ormiston
Arrendale
Dietrich
Tjeek-Willink
Brown
Degal
Habermehl
Gwaltney
Sardina

[jdw]

I don't know if there's a ton of strategic voting going on.

Tom's were pretty straight forward, and I doubt very off from what will end up being the majority of voters. He hit seven of the eight new major candidates, and the three people left over from last year that he voted for were the #1 and #2 remaining vote getters from that ballot along with a three time Murphy winner (though Stell's support isn't strong as he was #8 last year among those who didn't get in).

Chris' votes are his typical idiosyncratic ones. Still, he did hit six of the eight major new candidates, and his remaining 4 had the #3, #5 and #6 returners along with also ran Bud.

Mine also had six of the new 8. My balance had the #1, #4, #7 and #8 returners along with Stell like Tom. They happen to be guys that I've always supported, whereas I've never voted for Arsenault or Tito Jr., and as mentioned last year, I'm not yet totally sold on Lex Tjeenk-Willink (especially on to the point of voting for over a three time Murph winner).

If there was any "strategy" on my part, it was in leaving Perry off my ballot in favor of Lonny and Luther. I thought/think that Perry will have enough support to stay on the ballot for next year, and that with 5 or so of the new guys getting cleared off the ballot, he'll gain support over time and go in. I didn't think the support for Lonny would fall off so much that he'd fall off the ballot, but you never know with this type of first year class. Dittos Luther.

There is going to be a fair number of lower level guys falling off. In addition to Arsenault and Moe heading to the VC (since neither is going to get elected this year), guys like the various B's (the two Buds, Bullet, Biff, Samoa Ben and Bobby Johnson) are at risk of falling off the ballot.

Stew, Lieb & Helton come next year. Coming up after them in a few years are Lemmings and Whitt, and then things start to dry up a bit. That's when someone like Perry or Makris look to make a case to get in.

John

[fhomess]

C/3B John Degal
1B Charlton Brown
1B Lonny Arrendal
2B Hans Habermehl
LF Al Arsenault
CF Rudel Dietrich
RF William Perry
SP Martin Gwaltney
SP Adam Sardina
SP Lex Tjeenk-Willink

[Y0DA55]

Arsenault
Misisca
Brown
Degal
Habermehl
Stell
Ulrich
Tjeenk-Willink
Gwaltney
Sardina

[ifspuds]

Brown
Degal -- He's HoF material regardless, but Degal did not win a BOY in 1962. I know you put an asterisk there, John, but you gotta at least explain it for those not in the know.
Habermehl
Perry -- I'm going to be aaaaaaangry if he falls off the ballot just due to the crowded class
Gwaltney -- How many times do you have one HoF-caliber player traded for another before either ever hits the majors? Also known as the best 4th round pick in the history of history)
Sardina
Makris
Tjeenk-Willink
Arrendale
Ormiston

[jdw]

Originally Posted by ifspuds

Degal -- He's HoF material regardless, but Degal did not win a BOY in 1962. I know you put an asterisk there, John, but you gotta at least explain it for those not in the know.

For those who don't know the backstory:

John "Dirtbag" Degal was traded to from the O's in the AL to the Giants in the NL on August 15, 1962 for the pennant chase. He was having a solid year in the AL to that point: .299/.375/.558/.933 with 31 HR's and 101 RBI in 107 games. With the Giants having Jed Williams (.418 OBP), Chippy Gaines (.381 OBP) and Shigeo Oh (NL best .442 OBP) hitting in the #1-3 spots infront of him, Dirtbag went insane: .345/.449/.633/1.082 with 13 HR and 43 RBI in 39 games. He finished the season hitting .311-44-144, leading the Majors in HR and RBI.

OOTP's Awards AI in that version (6.12 if I recall correctly) didn't grasp the concept of splitting stats when a player is traded between leagues. So it gave Dirtbag the 1962 National League Batter of the Year Award despite his only playing 39 games in the NL.

Wait... wait... wait... that's unfair! MLB has *never* given a MVP or a Cy Young Award to anyone who played that little of a season in a league.

Sutcliffe came over on June 13, 1984 and started 20 games while going 16-1 for the Cubs to win the Cy Young. That was "enough" time in the NL to get votes.

Doyle Alexander, in contrast, came over on August 12, 1987 from the Braves to go 9-0 in 11 starts with a wicked 1.53 ERA (Jimmy Key led the AL with a 2.76 ERA that year). That *wasn't* enough time in the AL to finish any highers than *4th* in the Cy Young as Clemens ran away with the vote.

It was obvious that the OOTP Awards AI was messed up.

We agreed (including Degal's own Giants GM who advocated it as much as anyone) to take the award away from Dirtbag and give it to someone else. We also agreed that Asa Booker was clearly the best hitter in the NL in 1962 and would have won the award if Degal stayed in the AL:

.343/.407/.617/1.024 Asa Booker
.311/.395/.577/.972 John Degal
.312/.383/.557/.940 Pap Brown (AL BOY)

31 HR with 115 R & 116 RBI Booker
44 HR with 100 R & 144 RBI Degal
39 HR with 108 R & 122 RBI Brown

Of course Degal would have won the AL BOY with those same stats if he stayed in the AL - his HR and RBI advantage would have beaten Brown.

So...

Degal "won" the 1962 NL BOY. He would have won the award in the AL as well if the Awards AI judge him against those guys. We thought the AI was hitting the bong with a well known flaw. We "took" the award away and gave it to Booker.

Hence the *

I guess we could say that Degal was the "Major League Batter Of The Year", in the sense that he would have won either BOY Award if his stats were crunched through the AI of that version of the game. I think in hindsight that perhaps we should have given Degal the AL Award. Pap had 3 of them already from 1956-58, including 1957 when Degal was probably a better hitter than him. This really was Degal chance to win one. And since he did in fact win one , it would have been semi-fair.

Would it have been realistic? No. It's unlikely that AL MVP Voters would have given Degal enough votes in real life for him to win.

On the other hand, the Awards AI isn't always realistic.

Perry -- I'm going to be aaaaaaangry if he falls off the ballot just due to the crowded class

I'm pretty confident that he will stay on the ballot. Lots of others will fall off.


John

[Vris]

keep this open for a couple days