VOTE: Time Warp HOF Ballot 1954

Matt from TN · 03-28-2005, 08:05 PM

1936 Initial Ballot Results, 1937 Results, 1938 Results, 1939 Results, 1940 Results,
1941 Results, 1942 Results, 1943 Results, 1944 Results, 1945 Results,
1946 Results, 1947 Results, 1948 Results, 1949 Results, 1950 Results
1951 Results, 1952 Results, 1953 Results

Three RL players were elected by the Baseball Writers in 1954: Rabbit Maranville, Bill Dickey and Bill Terry.

All players who received at least 5% of votes on the last ballot were retained for this ballot. I also added players who became eligible for the ballot in 1954 (retired after 1948 season).

All players not receiving 5% of votes on this ballot will be removed. Also, all players who have been retired for 20 years fall off this ballot if not elected.

This will be Nasty Ned Fargo's final year on this ballot.

Vote for as many or as few as you want. Max votes are 10.

HOF Standard: 50 is considered an average HOF'er. 100 is max.

Batters

Current Career Leaders (Click to View Entire List):
AVG: .364
Hits: 4000
HR: 557
RBI: 1906
2B: 665
BB: 1962
R: 2004
SB: 1271

Willard Schwarz, C, Last Season: 1937, HOF Standard: 41
2050 H, 359 2B, 340 HR, 1399 RBI, 1106 R, 614 K, 595 BB, 14 SB, .260 AVG, .760 OPS
BOY Award: 1932
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 8
Pennants: 6
WS Victories: 5
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: SLG 1, HR 3, RBI 1, R 1
Career Top 25: HR (4)

Jon Minzey, CF, Last Season: 1940, HOF Standard: 57
2988 H, 430 2B, 54 HR, 1098 RBI, 1568 R, 600 K, 710 BB, 364 SB, .316 AVG, .801 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 4
Pennants: 5
WS Victories: 2
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: 3B 1
Career Top 25: Runs (23), Hits (23)

Troy Kinnear, 3B, Last Season: 1940, HOF Standard: 57
2412 H, 602 2B, 332 HR, 1595 RBI, 1423 R, 933 K, 1407 BB, 46 SB, .272 AVG, .858 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 2
Pennants: 1
WS Victories: 1
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: 2B 1, HR 1, BB 1
Career Top 25: 2B (6), HR (6), RBI (14), BB (15)

Quenton Misisca, 1B, Last Season: 1941, HOF Standard: 44
2629 H, 640 2B, 397 HR, 1787 RBI, 1419 R, 464 K, 759 BB, 26 SB, .286 AVG, .836 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 1
Pennants: 1
WS Victories: 1
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: SLG 1, 2B 1, HR 4, RBI 3
Career Top 25: HR (2), RBI (4), 2B (5)

Harry Finley, C, Last Season: 1941, HOF Standard: 44
1982 H, 373 2B, 87 HR, 910 RBI, 1139 R, 788 K, 508 BB, 632 SB, .288 AVG, .761 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 10
Pennants: 7
WS Victories: 5
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: 3B 2
Career Top 25: SB (14)

Dave "Red Fox" Arkless, CF, Last Season: 1943, HOF Standard: 55
2439 H, 401 2B, 285 HR, 1292 RBI, 1418 R, 453 K, 1036 BB, 140 SB, .297 AVG, .855 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 7
Pennants: 2
WS Victories: 1
Batting Titles: 1
Led League in: Hits 2, Runs 1
Career Top 25: HR (13)

Ricardo "Tiny" Bowden, SS, Last Season: 1943, HOF Standard: 57
2510 H, 541 2B, 68 HR, 888 RBI, 1352 R, 648 K, 514 BB, 657 SB, .318 AVG, .816 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: 1928
Gold Gloves: NONE
Pennants: NONE
WS Victories: NONE
Batting Titles: 2
Led League in: Hits 1, 2B 2, 3B 1, Runs 3
Career Top 25: 2B (14), SB (12)

Adolf "The Human Torch" Greisbach, SS, Last Season: 1943, HOF Standard: 60
2847 H, 384 2B, 53 HR, 898 RBI, 1311 R, 573 K, 1026 BB, 221 SB, .346 AVG, .853 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 1
Pennants: 1
WS Victories: 1
Batting Titles: 2
Led League in: OBP 1, Hits 4
Career Top 25: AVG (7)

David "Pops" McAuliffe, 3B, Last Season: 1945, HOF Standard: 55
3525 H, 596 2B, 177 HR, 1570 RBI, 1522 R, 797 K, 846 BB, 155 SB, .300 AVG, .769 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: 1923
Gold Gloves: 3
Pennants: 3
WS Victories: 1
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: NONE
Career Top 25: Hits (3), 2B (7), RBI (15)

Alan Liao, 3B, Last Season: 1946, HOF Standard: 65
3065 H, 527 2B, 144 HR, 1349 RBI, 1616 R, 476 K, 1482 BB, 270 SB, .301 AVG, .805 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: NONE
Pennants: NONE
WS Victories: NONE
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: 2B 1, Runs 1, BB 1
Career Top 25: Hits (19), 2B (21), Runs (17), BB (11)

Bobby Martin, 2B, Last Season: 1946, HOF Standard: 59
2623 H, 548 2B, 124 HR, 1151 RBI, 1349 R, 621 K, 1007 BB, 21 SB, .319 AVG, .858 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: 1931
Gold Gloves: 1
Pennants: 3
WS Victories: NONE
Batting Titles: 1
Led League in: OBP 1, OPS 1, Hits 1, 2B 2, 3B 1
Career Top 25: 2B (11)

Jessie "Bing" Holt, 1B, Last Season: 1947, HOF Standard: 32
2183 H, 278 2B, 225 HR, 1178 RBI, 963 R, 681 K, 580 BB, 15 SB, .314 AVG, .828 OPS
BOY Award: 1940, 1943, 1944
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 1
Pennants: 4
WS Victories: 3
Batting Titles: 1
Led League in: SLG 1, OPS 1, HR 1, RBI 1
Career Top 25: NONE

NEW

Leonard "Sunny" Davie, C, Last Season: 1948, HOF Standard: 64
2639 H, 533 2B, 254 HR, 1368 RBI, 1592 R, 887 K, 1534 BB, 285 SB, .285 AVG, .832 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: NONE
Pennants: 1
WS Victories: NONE
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: OBP 1, SLG 1, OPS 2, Runs 1, BB 2
Career Top 25: HR (20), 2B (18), BB (7), R (21)

Swervin' Ervin Skjerly, 2B/CF, Last Season: 1948, HOF Standard: 57
2819 H, 388 2B, 85 HR, 1199 RBI, 1402 R, 895 K, 1203 BB, 284 SB, .308 AVG, .795 OPS
BOY Award: 1935
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: NONE
Pennants: 10
WS Victories: 6
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: RBI 1, BB 1
Career Top 25: NONE

Carl Kahle, 3B, Last Season: 1948, HOF Standard: 70
3169 H, 591 2B, 322 HR, 1847 RBI, 1724 R, 1248 K, 1506 BB, 10 SB, .301 AVG, .854 OPS
BOY Award: 1936, 1937, 1939
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: NONE
Pennants: 3
WS Victories: 2
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: SLG 2, OPS 2, HR 1, RBI 2
Career Top 25: Hits (14), HR (7), RBI (2), 2B (8), BB (9), R (5)

Ray Dimeo, 2B, Last Season: 1948, HOF Standard: 43
2218 H, 285 2B, 89 HR, 822 RBI, 1145 R, 814 K, 940 BB, 302 SB, .300 AVG, .785 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 1
Pennants: NONE
WS Victories: NONE
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: NONE
Career Top 25: NONE

Gordon Meadows, C, Last Season: 1948, HOF Standard: 26
1678 H, 232 2B, 71 HR, 748 RBI, 790 R, 195 K, 458 BB, 110 SB, .272 AVG, .687 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: NONE
Pennants: NONE
WS Victories: NONE
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: NONE
Career Top 25: NONE

Ted Stuart, SS, Last Season: 1948, HOF Standard: 31
1800 H, 258 2B, 45 HR, 757 RBI, 797 R, 631 K, 547 BB, 31 SB, .296 AVG, .749 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 9
Pennants: 4
WS Victories: 2
Batting Titles: NONE
Led League in: NONE
Career Top 25: NONE

Reggie Woodson, C, Last Season: 1947, HOF Standard: 35
1354 H, 230 2B, 43 HR, 576 RBI, 692 R, 418 K, 511 BB, 53 SB, .302 AVG, .781 OPS
BOY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Gold Gloves: 1
Pennants: NONE
WS Victories: NONE
Batting Titles: 1
Led League in: NONE
Career Top 25: NONE

Pitchers

Current Career Leaders (Click to View Entire List):
ERA: 2.10
W: 446
K: 3407
CG: 601
SHO: 95

"Nasty Ned" Fargo, Last Season: 1933, HOF Standard: 46
322-261, 55.2%, 3.99 ERA, 5502 IP, 1073 BB, 1482 K, 415 CG, 31 SHO, 1.24 WHIP
POY Award: 1927
ROY Award: NONE
Pennants: 1
WS Victories: 1
No-Hitters: NONE
Led League in: Wins 1, Losses 1, IP 5, CG 2
Career Top 25: Wins (12), CG (17)

Luke Riley, Last Season: 1943, HOF Standard: 53
272-138, 66.3%, 3.34 ERA, 3746.2 IP, 967 BB, 1611 K, 350 CG, 39 SHO, 1.24 WHIP
POY Award: 1934, 1935
ROY Award: NONE
Pennants: 6
WS Victories: 5
No-Hitters: NONE
Led League in: ERA 1, WHIP 1, Wins 3, IP 1, K's 1, CG 4, SHO 2
Career Top 25: NONE

Terry Schukraft, Last Season: 1943, HOF Standard: 51
332-255, 56.6%, 3.73 ERA, 5516.2 IP, 1764 BB, 2056 K, 428 CG, 39 SHO, 1.27 WHIP
POY Award: NONE
ROY Award: NONE
Pennants: 5
WS Victories: 4
No-Hitters: NONE
Led League in: IP 1, CG 2, SHO 1
Career Top 25: Wins (10), K (21), CG (14)

Art Booth, Last Season: 1944, HOF Standard: 48
284-165, 63.3%, 3.64 ERA, 4262.1 IP, 1402 BB, 1758 K, 339 CG, 30 SHO, 1.34 WHIP
POY Award: 1938, 1942
ROY Award: NONE
Pennants: 6
WS Victories: 4
No-Hitters: NONE
Led League in: ERA 2, Wins 1, IP 1, CG 1, SHO 2
Career Top 25: Wins (19)

Mark Ponfick, Last Season: 1945, HOF Standard: 55
334-252, 57.0%, 3.82 ERA, 5596 IP, 1184 BB, 2505 K, 463 CG, 41 SHO, 1.22 WHIP
POY Award: 1944
ROY Award: NONE
Pennants: 3
WS Victories: 2
No-Hitters: NONE
Led League in: WHIP 2, Wins 1
Career Top 25: Wins (9), K's (5), CG (5), SHO (25)

Remmy Paul, Last Season: 1947, HOF Standard: 54
293-176, 62.5%, 3.40 ERA, 4403.2 IP, 1632 BB, 2278 K, 395 CG, 45 SHO, 1.30 WHIP
POY Award: 1944, 1945, 1946
ROY Award: NONE
Pennants: 3
WS Victories: 2
No-Hitters: 1
Led League in: ERA 2, Wins 3, IP 1, K's 1, CG 4, SHO 2
Career Top 25: Wins (15), K's (11), CG (24), SHO (21)

Vris · 03-28-2005, 08:26 PM

Oh crap. You're lucky I was browsing the forum at this exact time Matt!

A few things:

*Ted Stuart is up. JT has been praising his defense and candidacy for a while. But yet, Harry Finley, arguably the greatest defensive backstop in TWB history, isn't in yet. Interesting...

*Seeing Sunnie Davie's numbers up there make him look less than impressive. John has been hyping him for sometime, but maybe it was being on a bunch of crappy White Sox teams made him stand out, because he was so much better than anyone of those teams.

*Where does Carl Kahle's HOF Standard rank? I know Murphy was over 70. I can't remember who else was.

My votes (which are never the same every year):

Harry Finley
Carl Kahle
Troy Kinnear (I almost called him Greg...I've been away for too long)
Servin' Ervin Skjerly
Luke Riley
Terry Schukraft
Art Booth
Remmy Paul
Mark Ponfick
"Red Fox" Arkless

I'm jumping off the Schwarz bandwagon for a year. I still think he's the reason why we value the homerun though.

rogmax11 · 03-28-2005, 08:28 PM

Paul
Ponfick
Kahle
Liao
Davie
Arkless
Finley
Schwarz
Skjerly
Greisbach

Matt from TN · 03-28-2005, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vris

A few things:

*Ted Stuart is up. JT has been praising his defense and candidacy for a while. But yet, Harry Finley, arguably the greatest defensive backstop in TWB history, isn't in yet. Interesting...

*Seeing Sunnie Davie's numbers up there make him look less than impressive. John has been hyping him for sometime, but maybe it was being on a bunch of crappy White Sox teams made him stand out, because he was so much better than anyone of those teams.

*Where does Carl Kahle's HOF Standard rank? I know Murphy was over 70. I can't remember who else was.

Very good observations.

First let me say that Carl Kahle also played in one of the worst HR parks of all time in Washington. Had he played anywhere else, let alone a great HR park like the Polo Grounds or Shibe, he would likely have hit 400 HR, IMO.

Here are all the HOF'ers with 70+ HOF Standard:

84 Andrew Murphy, SP
81 Kid Fite, 2B
80 Jethro Lee, SP
78 Ben Baum, CF
76 Genaro Nunez, 2B
74 Tim Lopresto, SP
74 Whitey Kohse, SS
72 Whiskey Allen, C
71 Tom Turley, C (the most underrated player of all time, IMO)
71 Roy Hobbs, CF
70 Carl Kahle, 3B

Ankhiel · 03-28-2005, 09:56 PM

Paul

haggis007 · 03-28-2005, 09:57 PM

Misisca
Greisbach
McAuliffe
Swervin!
Kahle
Riley
Booth
Paul
Red Fox
Kinnear

Tough to see how you could not vote for the max 10 with the guys who are still up for election--and its only going to get worse I would imagine.

haggis007 · 03-28-2005, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ankhiel

Paul

Are you serious? Just Paul?

metsgeek · 03-28-2005, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haggis007

Are you serious? Just Paul?

You obviously don't know Ankhiel. He's contrarian to a fault.

Anyway, here are my votes:

Kahle
McAuliffe
Liao
Greisbach
Martin
Misisca
Minzey
Finley
Paul
Riley

haggis007 · 03-28-2005, 10:41 PM

Contrarian, eh? Well, then, if allowed, I withdraw my vote for Paul, and give it to Liao instead.

canadiancreed · 03-28-2005, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ankhiel

Paul

Umm...isnt this the TWB HOF, not the Dodger's HOF thread?

Anyways, ehre's mine in no particular order. Surprised that Mills wasnt considered, but I guess the crappy Reds teams of the 30's didnt help.

Remmy Paul (R.I.P., you were a great one

)
Art Booth
Luke Riley
Carl Kahle
Swervin' Ervin Skjerly,
Leonard Davie
John Minzey
Alan Laio
David "Pops" McAuliffe
Adolf "The Human Torch" Greisbach,

Vris · 03-28-2005, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haggis007

Contrarian, eh? Well, then, if allowed, I withdraw my vote for Paul, and give it to Liao instead.

Oh, burn!

canadiancreed · 03-28-2005, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vris

Oh, burn!

very

haggis007 · 03-28-2005, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haggis007

Contrarian, eh? Well, then, if allowed, I withdraw my vote for Paul, and give it to Liao instead.

Sorry, forgot my smily

Vris · 03-29-2005, 12:09 AM

It was still good.

Matt from TN · 03-29-2005, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haggis007

Are you serious? Just Paul?

I wonder what the discussion would be like if the real BBWAA votes were public. :P

canadiancreed · 03-29-2005, 12:21 AM

probably quite heated as well

jdw · 03-29-2005, 01:15 AM

Vris wrote:

> Seeing Sunnie Davie's numbers
> up there make him look less than
> impressive. John has been hyping
> him for sometime, but maybe it
> was being on a bunch of crappy
> White Sox teams made him stand
> out, because he was so much better
> than anyone of those teams.

I never compared Davie to his teammates. I simply looked at him against the league.

These are two player's major Top 10 placements:

BA: never
BA: 5

OBP: never
OBP: 1-5-5-6-7-7-8-8-9

SLG: 1-2-2-5-6
SLG: 1-2-5-6-6-8-10

OPS: 3-8-10
OPS: 1-1-5-6-7-7-8-9

R*: 1-3-6-9-9-9-9
R*: 1-2-3-4-5-6-10

HR: 1-1-1-2-2-2-2-2-3-3-4-8
HR: 3-5-5-6-6-6-7-8-10

The first is Schwarz. The second is Davie. The one R* for Schwarz is RBI, and the R* for Davie is Runs.

Davie by simply the average of his league was better than Schwarz at *everything* with the exception of dingers.

Schwarz was the "greatest home run hitter of his generation".

In a word to quote Penn & Teller: Bull****.

Schwarz:

Home:
3863 AB
218 HR
17.7 AB/HR

Road:
4034 AB
122 HR
33.1 AB/HR

Davie:

Home:
4491 AB
101 HR
44.5 AB/HR

Road:
4784 AB
162 HR
29.5 AB/HR

Difference?

Willard got to play in the Baker Bowl where HR's flew out like Coors.

Davie played in Comiskey, where HR's go to die.

Schwarz was a power hitter inflated by his park. Since his _only_ skill was hitting HR's, on the road he was a limited player:

1922-37 (less 1931):
.265/.315/.494/.809 Home
.253/.308/.400/.707 Road

1921:
.283/.356/.377/.733 Home
.227/.260/.288/.548 Road

1931:
.277/.315/.550/.865 Home
.302/.358/.471/.830 Road

I could spreadsheet it to add in the 1921 and 1931 with the rest of his career, but the bottom line would be the same - a 100+ OPS gap. That gap would be almost entirely HR related.

Davie, on the other hand, was an all around hitter who could adjust from the HR killing Comiskey and the road:

Davie:

1927-48 (less 1931):
.291/.390/.442/.832 Home
.281/.383/.455/.838 Road

1931:
.249/.356/.342/.698 Home
.273/.354/.433/.787 Road

Again, I would spreadsheet it if anyone cares to have a one-line for Home/Road, but it would change what's clear. Davie adjusted in Comiskey by hitting for more BA and more gappage, and as a good and smart baserunner, he'd stretch out a few more three baggers. On the road, he'd take advantage of his great power and take the drop in BA in return for more dingers.

Smart?

Yes. That's Sunny Davie - one of the smartest players in TWB history. Not one of the fastest runners in the game, but he had good speed and just about the best base running instincts around - 285 SB, caught just 44 times for a 87% success rate. 1534 BBs, 11 times in the Top 10.

Schwarz?

Put Schwarz in Comiskey for those White Sox, and he would be a blip in TWB history. He never would have set the HR career record, and never would have been the first to break the 50+ mark for a season:

1932:
35 Home
15 Road

He's the Dave Kingman of TWB. Far and away the most overrated player in the history of the game.

Davie, because he played in Comiskey for a mediocre and poorly managed White Sox team, is almost forgotten. But in the day, everyone knew the score - 13 all star games, almost all of them as a starter.

I don't want to say that failing to vote for Davie is like the failure of the BBWA to vote in Dark Horse and Seifreid when they only happened to be the greatest CF and 1B in TWB history up to that point.

But failing to vote for Davie is an error.

John

jdw · 03-29-2005, 01:16 AM

Dave Arkless
Art Booth
Leonard Davie
Carl Kahle
Remmy Paul
Luke Riley
Terry Schukraft
Ervin Skjerly
Ted Stuart

This is the first time I've voted for 9 players in ages, if ever. Longtime readers of these threads know that I have high standards. Unreasonably high to some. Should be a sign of what I think of these nine.

John

jdw · 03-29-2005, 01:30 AM

Matt wrote:

> First let me say that Carl Kahle also played in
> one of the worst HR parks of all time in
> Washington. Had he played anywhere else, let
> alone a great HR park like the Polo Grounds or
> Shibe, he would likely have hit 400 HR, IMO.

134 Home
188 Road

Would have been close. Put him in the Baker Bowl and Shibe, he would have done it easy.

John

jdw · 03-29-2005, 01:36 AM

> Contrarian, eh? Well, then, if allowed, I
> withdraw my vote for Paul, and give it to
> Liao instead.

No need to do "payback", Brady. If Enk wants to be Enk, let him. I know my choices over the years (or lack of them) have pissed off other voters.

The thing is - don't take it out on Remmy. He doesn't deserve to be caught in a voting feud. He already is a "tragic" figure in TWB history. He doesn't really deserve this.

John

03-28-2005, 08:05 PM	#1
Matt from TN Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a funk.... Posts: 3,413	VOTE: Time Warp HOF Ballot 1954 1936 Initial Ballot Results, 1937 Results, 1938 Results, 1939 Results, 1940 Results, 1941 Results, 1942 Results, 1943 Results, 1944 Results, 1945 Results, 1946 Results, 1947 Results, 1948 Results, 1949 Results, 1950 Results 1951 Results, 1952 Results, 1953 Results Three RL players were elected by the Baseball Writers in 1954: Rabbit Maranville, Bill Dickey and Bill Terry. All players who received at least 5% of votes on the last ballot were retained for this ballot. I also added players who became eligible for the ballot in 1954 (retired after 1948 season). All players not receiving 5% of votes on this ballot will be removed. Also, all players who have been retired for 20 years fall off this ballot if not elected. This will be Nasty Ned Fargo's final year on this ballot. Vote for as many or as few as you want. Max votes are 10. HOF Standard: 50 is considered an average HOF'er. 100 is max. Batters Current Career Leaders (Click to View Entire List): AVG: .364 Hits: 4000 HR: 557 RBI: 1906 2B: 665 BB: 1962 R: 2004 SB: 1271 Willard Schwarz, C, Last Season: 1937, HOF Standard: 41 2050 H, 359 2B, 340 HR, 1399 RBI, 1106 R, 614 K, 595 BB, 14 SB, .260 AVG, .760 OPS BOY Award: 1932 ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: 8 Pennants: 6 WS Victories: 5 Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: SLG 1, HR 3, RBI 1, R 1 Career Top 25: HR (4) Jon Minzey, CF, Last Season: 1940, HOF Standard: 57 2988 H, 430 2B, 54 HR, 1098 RBI, 1568 R, 600 K, 710 BB, 364 SB, .316 AVG, .801 OPS BOY Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: 4 Pennants: 5 WS Victories: 2 Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: 3B 1 Career Top 25: Runs (23), Hits (23) Troy Kinnear, 3B, Last Season: 1940, HOF Standard: 57 2412 H, 602 2B, 332 HR, 1595 RBI, 1423 R, 933 K, 1407 BB, 46 SB, .272 AVG, .858 OPS BOY Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: 2 Pennants: 1 WS Victories: 1 Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: 2B 1, HR 1, BB 1 Career Top 25: 2B (6), HR (6), RBI (14), BB (15) Quenton Misisca, 1B, Last Season: 1941, HOF Standard: 44 2629 H, 640 2B, 397 HR, 1787 RBI, 1419 R, 464 K, 759 BB, 26 SB, .286 AVG, .836 OPS BOY Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: 1 Pennants: 1 WS Victories: 1 Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: SLG 1, 2B 1, HR 4, RBI 3 Career Top 25: HR (2), RBI (4), 2B (5) Harry Finley, C, Last Season: 1941, HOF Standard: 44 1982 H, 373 2B, 87 HR, 910 RBI, 1139 R, 788 K, 508 BB, 632 SB, .288 AVG, .761 OPS BOY Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: 10 Pennants: 7 WS Victories: 5 Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: 3B 2 Career Top 25: SB (14) Dave "Red Fox" Arkless, CF, Last Season: 1943, HOF Standard: 55 2439 H, 401 2B, 285 HR, 1292 RBI, 1418 R, 453 K, 1036 BB, 140 SB, .297 AVG, .855 OPS BOY Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: 7 Pennants: 2 WS Victories: 1 Batting Titles: 1 Led League in: Hits 2, Runs 1 Career Top 25: HR (13) Ricardo "Tiny" Bowden, SS, Last Season: 1943, HOF Standard: 57 2510 H, 541 2B, 68 HR, 888 RBI, 1352 R, 648 K, 514 BB, 657 SB, .318 AVG, .816 OPS BOY Award: NONE ROY Award: 1928 Gold Gloves: NONE Pennants: NONE WS Victories: NONE Batting Titles: 2 Led League in: Hits 1, 2B 2, 3B 1, Runs 3 Career Top 25: 2B (14), SB (12) Adolf "The Human Torch" Greisbach, SS, Last Season: 1943, HOF Standard: 60 2847 H, 384 2B, 53 HR, 898 RBI, 1311 R, 573 K, 1026 BB, 221 SB, .346 AVG, .853 OPS BOY Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: 1 Pennants: 1 WS Victories: 1 Batting Titles: 2 Led League in: OBP 1, Hits 4 Career Top 25: AVG (7) David "Pops" McAuliffe, 3B, Last Season: 1945, HOF Standard: 55 3525 H, 596 2B, 177 HR, 1570 RBI, 1522 R, 797 K, 846 BB, 155 SB, .300 AVG, .769 OPS BOY Award: NONE ROY Award: 1923 Gold Gloves: 3 Pennants: 3 WS Victories: 1 Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: NONE Career Top 25: Hits (3), 2B (7), RBI (15) Alan Liao, 3B, Last Season: 1946, HOF Standard: 65 3065 H, 527 2B, 144 HR, 1349 RBI, 1616 R, 476 K, 1482 BB, 270 SB, .301 AVG, .805 OPS BOY Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: NONE Pennants: NONE WS Victories: NONE Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: 2B 1, Runs 1, BB 1 Career Top 25: Hits (19), 2B (21), Runs (17), BB (11) Bobby Martin, 2B, Last Season: 1946, HOF Standard: 59 2623 H, 548 2B, 124 HR, 1151 RBI, 1349 R, 621 K, 1007 BB, 21 SB, .319 AVG, .858 OPS BOY Award: NONE ROY Award: 1931 Gold Gloves: 1 Pennants: 3 WS Victories: NONE Batting Titles: 1 Led League in: OBP 1, OPS 1, Hits 1, 2B 2, 3B 1 Career Top 25: 2B (11) Jessie "Bing" Holt, 1B, Last Season: 1947, HOF Standard: 32 2183 H, 278 2B, 225 HR, 1178 RBI, 963 R, 681 K, 580 BB, 15 SB, .314 AVG, .828 OPS BOY Award: 1940, 1943, 1944 ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: 1 Pennants: 4 WS Victories: 3 Batting Titles: 1 Led League in: SLG 1, OPS 1, HR 1, RBI 1 Career Top 25: NONE NEW Leonard "Sunny" Davie, C, Last Season: 1948, HOF Standard: 64 2639 H, 533 2B, 254 HR, 1368 RBI, 1592 R, 887 K, 1534 BB, 285 SB, .285 AVG, .832 OPS BOY Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: NONE Pennants: 1 WS Victories: NONE Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: OBP 1, SLG 1, OPS 2, Runs 1, BB 2 Career Top 25: HR (20), 2B (18), BB (7), R (21) Swervin' Ervin Skjerly, 2B/CF, Last Season: 1948, HOF Standard: 57 2819 H, 388 2B, 85 HR, 1199 RBI, 1402 R, 895 K, 1203 BB, 284 SB, .308 AVG, .795 OPS BOY Award: 1935 ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: NONE Pennants: 10 WS Victories: 6 Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: RBI 1, BB 1 Career Top 25: NONE Carl Kahle, 3B, Last Season: 1948, HOF Standard: 70 3169 H, 591 2B, 322 HR, 1847 RBI, 1724 R, 1248 K, 1506 BB, 10 SB, .301 AVG, .854 OPS BOY Award: 1936, 1937, 1939 ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: NONE Pennants: 3 WS Victories: 2 Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: SLG 2, OPS 2, HR 1, RBI 2 Career Top 25: Hits (14), HR (7), RBI (2), 2B (8), BB (9), R (5) Ray Dimeo, 2B, Last Season: 1948, HOF Standard: 43 2218 H, 285 2B, 89 HR, 822 RBI, 1145 R, 814 K, 940 BB, 302 SB, .300 AVG, .785 OPS BOY Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: 1 Pennants: NONE WS Victories: NONE Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: NONE Career Top 25: NONE Gordon Meadows, C, Last Season: 1948, HOF Standard: 26 1678 H, 232 2B, 71 HR, 748 RBI, 790 R, 195 K, 458 BB, 110 SB, .272 AVG, .687 OPS BOY Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: NONE Pennants: NONE WS Victories: NONE Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: NONE Career Top 25: NONE Ted Stuart, SS, Last Season: 1948, HOF Standard: 31 1800 H, 258 2B, 45 HR, 757 RBI, 797 R, 631 K, 547 BB, 31 SB, .296 AVG, .749 OPS BOY Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: 9 Pennants: 4 WS Victories: 2 Batting Titles: NONE Led League in: NONE Career Top 25: NONE Reggie Woodson, C, Last Season: 1947, HOF Standard: 35 1354 H, 230 2B, 43 HR, 576 RBI, 692 R, 418 K, 511 BB, 53 SB, .302 AVG, .781 OPS BOY Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE Gold Gloves: 1 Pennants: NONE WS Victories: NONE Batting Titles: 1 Led League in: NONE Career Top 25: NONE Pitchers Current Career Leaders (Click to View Entire List): ERA: 2.10 W: 446 K: 3407 CG: 601 SHO: 95 "Nasty Ned" Fargo, Last Season: 1933, HOF Standard: 46 322-261, 55.2%, 3.99 ERA, 5502 IP, 1073 BB, 1482 K, 415 CG, 31 SHO, 1.24 WHIP POY Award: 1927 ROY Award: NONE Pennants: 1 WS Victories: 1 No-Hitters: NONE Led League in: Wins 1, Losses 1, IP 5, CG 2 Career Top 25: Wins (12), CG (17) Luke Riley, Last Season: 1943, HOF Standard: 53 272-138, 66.3%, 3.34 ERA, 3746.2 IP, 967 BB, 1611 K, 350 CG, 39 SHO, 1.24 WHIP POY Award: 1934, 1935 ROY Award: NONE Pennants: 6 WS Victories: 5 No-Hitters: NONE Led League in: ERA 1, WHIP 1, Wins 3, IP 1, K's 1, CG 4, SHO 2 Career Top 25: NONE Terry Schukraft, Last Season: 1943, HOF Standard: 51 332-255, 56.6%, 3.73 ERA, 5516.2 IP, 1764 BB, 2056 K, 428 CG, 39 SHO, 1.27 WHIP POY Award: NONE ROY Award: NONE Pennants: 5 WS Victories: 4 No-Hitters: NONE Led League in: IP 1, CG 2, SHO 1 Career Top 25: Wins (10), K (21), CG (14) Art Booth, Last Season: 1944, HOF Standard: 48 284-165, 63.3%, 3.64 ERA, 4262.1 IP, 1402 BB, 1758 K, 339 CG, 30 SHO, 1.34 WHIP POY Award: 1938, 1942 ROY Award: NONE Pennants: 6 WS Victories: 4 No-Hitters: NONE Led League in: ERA 2, Wins 1, IP 1, CG 1, SHO 2 Career Top 25: Wins (19) Mark Ponfick, Last Season: 1945, HOF Standard: 55 334-252, 57.0%, 3.82 ERA, 5596 IP, 1184 BB, 2505 K, 463 CG, 41 SHO, 1.22 WHIP POY Award: 1944 ROY Award: NONE Pennants: 3 WS Victories: 2 No-Hitters: NONE Led League in: WHIP 2, Wins 1 Career Top 25: Wins (9), K's (5), CG (5), SHO (25) Remmy Paul, Last Season: 1947, HOF Standard: 54 293-176, 62.5%, 3.40 ERA, 4403.2 IP, 1632 BB, 2278 K, 395 CG, 45 SHO, 1.30 WHIP POY Award: 1944, 1945, 1946 ROY Award: NONE Pennants: 3 WS Victories: 2 No-Hitters: 1 Led League in: ERA 2, Wins 3, IP 1, K's 1, CG 4, SHO 2 Career Top 25: Wins (15), K's (11), CG (24), SHO (21) __________________ Set in Stone... Players Remain with Original Franchise

03-28-2005, 08:26 PM	#2
Vris Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: somewhere where I don't know where I am Posts: 3,251	Oh crap. You're lucky I was browsing the forum at this exact time Matt! A few things: Ted Stuart is up. JT has been praising his defense and candidacy for a while. But yet, Harry Finley, arguably the greatest defensive backstop in TWB history, isn't in yet. Interesting... Seeing Sunnie Davie's numbers up there make him look less than impressive. John has been hyping him for sometime, but maybe it was being on a bunch of crappy White Sox teams made him stand out, because he was so much better than anyone of those teams. *Where does Carl Kahle's HOF Standard rank? I know Murphy was over 70. I can't remember who else was. My votes (which are never the same every year): Harry Finley Carl Kahle Troy Kinnear (I almost called him Greg...I've been away for too long) Servin' Ervin Skjerly Luke Riley Terry Schukraft Art Booth Remmy Paul Mark Ponfick "Red Fox" Arkless I'm jumping off the Schwarz bandwagon for a year. I still think he's the reason why we value the homerun though. __________________ None Blog it.

03-28-2005, 09:56 PM	#5
Ankhiel Major Leagues Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 470	Paul __________________ GM - TWB Expos Join the fun

03-29-2005, 12:09 AM	#14
Vris Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: somewhere where I don't know where I am Posts: 3,251	It was still good. __________________ None Blog it.

03-29-2005, 12:21 AM	#16
canadiancreed Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 11,660	probably quite heated as well __________________ PT21 PT22

03-28-2005, 08:28 PM	#3
rogmax11 All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 1,320	Paul Ponfick Kahle Liao Davie Arkless Finley Schwarz Skjerly Greisbach

03-28-2005, 09:57 PM	#6
haggis007 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 115	Misisca Greisbach McAuliffe Swervin! Kahle Riley Booth Paul Red Fox Kinnear Tough to see how you could not vote for the max 10 with the guys who are still up for election--and its only going to get worse I would imagine.

03-28-2005, 10:41 PM	#9
haggis007 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 115	Contrarian, eh? Well, then, if allowed, I withdraw my vote for Paul, and give it to Liao instead.

03-29-2005, 01:15 AM	#17
jdw All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,114	Vris wrote: > Seeing Sunnie Davie's numbers > up there make him look less than > impressive. John has been hyping > him for sometime, but maybe it > was being on a bunch of crappy > White Sox teams made him stand > out, because he was so much better > than anyone of those teams. I never compared Davie to his teammates. I simply looked at him against the league. These are two player's major Top 10 placements: BA: never BA: 5 OBP: never OBP: 1-5-5-6-7-7-8-8-9 SLG: 1-2-2-5-6 SLG: 1-2-5-6-6-8-10 OPS: 3-8-10 OPS: 1-1-5-6-7-7-8-9 R: 1-3-6-9-9-9-9 R: 1-2-3-4-5-6-10 HR: 1-1-1-2-2-2-2-2-3-3-4-8 HR: 3-5-5-6-6-6-7-8-10 The first is Schwarz. The second is Davie. The one R* for Schwarz is RBI, and the R* for Davie is Runs. Davie by simply the average of his league was better than Schwarz at everything with the exception of dingers. Schwarz was the "greatest home run hitter of his generation". In a word to quote Penn & Teller: Bull***. Schwarz: Home: 3863 AB 218 HR 17.7 AB/HR Road: 4034 AB 122 HR 33.1 AB/HR Davie: Home: 4491 AB 101 HR 44.5 AB/HR Road: 4784 AB 162 HR 29.5 AB/HR Difference? Willard got to play in the Baker Bowl where HR's flew out like Coors. Davie played in Comiskey, where HR's go to die. Schwarz was a power hitter inflated by his park. Since his _only_ skill was hitting HR's, on the road he was a limited player: 1922-37 (less 1931): .265/.315/.494/.809 Home .253/.308/.400/.707 Road 1921: .283/.356/.377/.733 Home .227/.260/.288/.548 Road 1931: .277/.315/.550/.865 Home .302/.358/.471/.830 Road I could spreadsheet it to add in the 1921 and 1931 with the rest of his career, but the bottom line would be the same - a 100+ OPS gap. That gap would be almost entirely HR related. Davie, on the other hand, was an all around hitter who could adjust from the HR killing Comiskey and the road: Davie: 1927-48 (less 1931): .291/.390/.442/.832 Home .281/.383/.455/.838 Road 1931: .249/.356/.342/.698 Home .273/.354/.433/.787 Road Again, I would spreadsheet it if anyone cares to have a one-line for Home/Road, but it would change what's clear. Davie adjusted in Comiskey by hitting for more BA and more gappage, and as a good and smart baserunner, he'd stretch out a few more three baggers. On the road, he'd take advantage of his great power and take the drop in BA in return for more dingers. Smart? Yes. That's Sunny Davie - one of the smartest players in TWB history. Not one of the fastest runners in the game, but he had good speed and just about the best base running instincts around - 285 SB, caught just 44 times for a 87% success rate. 1534 BBs, 11 times in the Top 10. Schwarz? Put Schwarz in Comiskey for those White Sox, and he would be a blip in TWB history. He never would have set the HR career record, and never would have been the first to break the 50+ mark for a season: 1932: 35 Home 15 Road He's the Dave Kingman of TWB. Far and away the most overrated player in the history of the game. Davie, because he played in Comiskey for a mediocre and poorly managed White Sox team, is almost forgotten. But in the day, everyone knew the score - 13 all star games, almost all of them as a starter. I don't want to say that failing to vote for Davie is like the failure of the BBWA to vote in Dark Horse and Seifreid when they only happened to be the greatest CF and 1B in TWB history up to that point. But failing to vote for Davie is an error. John Last edited by jdw; 04-16-2005 at 08:52 PM.*

03-29-2005, 01:16 AM	#18
jdw All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,114	Dave Arkless Art Booth Leonard Davie Carl Kahle Remmy Paul Luke Riley Terry Schukraft Ervin Skjerly Ted Stuart This is the first time I've voted for 9 players in ages, if ever. Longtime readers of these threads know that I have high standards. Unreasonably high to some. Should be a sign of what I think of these nine. John

03-29-2005, 01:30 AM	#19
jdw All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,114	Matt wrote: > First let me say that Carl Kahle also played in > one of the worst HR parks of all time in > Washington. Had he played anywhere else, let > alone a great HR park like the Polo Grounds or > Shibe, he would likely have hit 400 HR, IMO. 134 Home 188 Road Would have been close. Put him in the Baker Bowl and Shibe, he would have done it easy. John

03-29-2005, 01:36 AM	#20
jdw All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,114	> Contrarian, eh? Well, then, if allowed, I > withdraw my vote for Paul, and give it to > Liao instead. No need to do "payback", Brady. If Enk wants to be Enk, let him. I know my choices over the years (or lack of them) have pissed off other voters. The thing is - don't take it out on Remmy. He doesn't deserve to be caught in a voting feud. He already is a "tragic" figure in TWB history. He doesn't really deserve this. John