Cleveland Indians / Guardians

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

I think it was just generally trash for years and years and OOTPDev finally realized that it served no purpose on these fora. There was a time when there was a fairly vibrant off-topic community here but that was well over a decade ago and most of the Cool People (as well as a lot of the uncool ones) (for example Eckstein 4Prez) left. Rudy is still around from those days I guess...

I just figured it was still there with the same folks bickering non stop. I decided quite a ways back to unjoin that group and I couldn't believe how much happier my days became. Every once in a while when a thread would disappear, I would join for like 10 minutes or so, just see if that's where it went. Crazy, just yesterday ESPN's site had a deal about Joe Paterno's legacy and I couldn't help thinking about Vinny

[Hooray Saturday]

Originally Posted by tbugg

You can even make it more offensive than "indians" and no one will care what you do.

jesus will care. he is always watching. making a list. checking it twice. gonna find out whose naughty or nice.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by Hooray Saturday

jesus will care. he is always watching. making a list. checking it twice. gonna find out whose naughty or nice.

Jesus sure got fat in his old age...

[Hooray Saturday]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Jesus sure got fat in his old age...

jesus likes cookies.

[AESP_pres]

Originally Posted by David Watts

Holy cow, did they really get rid of OT Debates? What happened? Was there one final meltdown that led to its demise?

If there was a section I rarely read it was that one... always felt like it was the same two or three guys argumenting about whatever just because

[BigRed75]

Never understood why a baseball sim board needed a politics subforum

As for the Guardians, here's my unsolicited 2 cents:

a) the name change doesn't offend me
b) going back and removing references to Indians from the past doesn't offend me
c) retroactively renaming the teams from 1920-2021 as the Guardians sticks in my craw. Bob Feller, Larry Doby, Rocky Colavito, et. al. never wore uniforms with "Guardians" across their chest. But you know what they did wear across their chest?

Cleveland

You don't want to refer to the teams of the past as Indians? Fine. Personally, I think it smacks of "NCAA vacating tournament wins" - everyone knows what really happened.

But don't go retroactively giving those teams of the past a name that didn't exist until 2022. Just call them Cleveland. No nickname required. Just Cleveland. Because to write "Bob Feller pitched three no-hitters for the Cleveland Guardians" just looks silly.

And before you respond (although I'm guessing there will be someone who doesn't read this - prove me wrong), I'm addressing these comments to Larry Dolan, not Markus Heinsohn

[silvam14]

Originally Posted by BigRed75

Never understood why a baseball sim board needed a politics subforum

As for the Guardians, here's my unsolicited 2 cents:

a) the name change doesn't offend me
b) going back and removing references to Indians from the past doesn't offend me
c) retroactively renaming the teams from 1920-2021 as the Guardians sticks in my craw. Bob Feller, Larry Doby, Rocky Colavito, et. al. never wore uniforms with "Guardians" across their chest. But you know what they did wear across their chest?

Cleveland

You don't want to refer to the teams of the past as Indians? Fine. Personally, I think it smacks of "NCAA vacating tournament wins" - everyone knows what really happened.

But don't go retroactively giving those teams of the past a name that didn't exist until 2022. Just call them Cleveland. No nickname required. Just Cleveland. Because to write "Bob Feller pitched three no-hitters for the Cleveland Guardians" just looks silly.

And before you respond (although I'm guessing there will be someone who doesn't read this - prove me wrong), I'm addressing these comments to Larry Dolan, not Markus Heinsohn

I suggested using “Cleveland Baseball Team” for the past teams instead of Indians if it has to be that way.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BirdWatcher]

Originally Posted by BigRed75

But don't go retroactively giving those teams of the past a name that didn't exist until 2022. Just call them Cleveland. No nickname required. Just Cleveland. Because to write "Bob Feller pitched three no-hitters for the Cleveland Guardians" just looks silly.

And before you respond (although I'm guessing there will be someone who doesn't read this - prove me wrong), I'm addressing these comments to Larry Dolan, not Markus Heinsohn

I did read your last sentence and completely hear what you are saying, but I also do think this is an interesting idea that maybe the developers could look into. If I am understanding the restrictions that are being placed on OOTP as a licensee (and, of course, I have no way of knowing all, or even more than just a tiny bit, of what the details are of this), it does sound like the restriction that has been placed is on using the nickname Indians for any of the Cleveland franchise teams from any era.
That does not seem to indicate that there is a requirement that the name Guardians be used retroactively.

I'm just guessing that with the way the program is set up there needs to be something in both fields for the name of a team? Honestly, I've never tried to do otherwise so this is purely a guess. And I am as far from being a game developer or even tech savvy human as probably anyone in this community.
But it does feel like if there was a way to resolve the licensing restrictions but also maintain historical, I don't know, let's call it fidelity, I can't see where that would be a bad thing.

I'm not advocating that the developers make any changes with this right now. We all know they have tons of more urgent things to address at the moment. But this kind of more pragmatic approach to making this work better for OOTP historical gamers, quite aside from any of the rhetoric, hyperbole, and culture wars passion that this thread got swallowed up by, is (I believe anyway) a legitimate conversation to be had.

[knightdreamer2k]

Originally Posted by Antonin

For crying out loud. No, the movie Major League is not banned. It's very sad that comments from people with your point of view descend so quickly into the absurd.

I don't really understand why you guys are so emotionally attached to these names. If you really want to "honor" the people who were here when the Europeans arrived in North and South America, why not learn about their culture(s)? Learn one of their languages. Contribute to a charity that addresses problems on the reservations like alcoholism and opioid addiction.

When I see hundreds of people doing that silly "tomahawk chop" gesture, it seems like they just do it to poke their thumb in the eye of racial minorities and those evil libs. You are nervous because the world you thought you dominated is changing. You don't control the entire planet any more. People of color are sick and tired of "going along to get along." When I was a kid, the white players on my little league baseball team used to rub my head for luck. I'm black. I put up with it then, because "going along to get along" was a primary component of survival strategy for African-Americans. You just did what you had to do to get by. But I doubt that sort of thing would be tolerated now. Enough is enough.

You guys can't order and rearrange peoples and cultures anymore, and that makes you feel insecure.

In a way, it's sad. And it makes me very pessimistic that American society will become more harmonious during my lifetime. You guys just don't listen. You don't want to listen.

You guys are angry because you think people who don't look like you want to censor you. That's why you complain so bitterly about "woke" this and "woke" that.

But you censor yourself every day. If you have a female boss, you certainly don't use the "b" word when she's around. You don't use certain language around your female co-workers. If you did, the HR department would call you in within minutes, and you would be fired.

You don't tell dirty jokes around your young daughters, your elderly relatives or your priest/rabbi/minister.

And you definitely don't use the "N-word" anywhere a black person can hear you. Not if you care about your personal safety.

Total freedom to do and say whatever you want to anyone and everyone just can't exist if you intend to live in society. This is (or should be) common sense. To exist as human beings we have to respect each other. Self-restraint is a good thing. It separates human civilization from the way animals live.

Enough of the silly ethnic stereotypes. Treat people who are different the way you yourself would want to be treated.

You have said everything I wanted to say, so thank you. I tune out those who use the word "woke" as I see it as childish and it speaks to their insecurities.

[Raindrops]

there is still the Spokane Indians

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by Raindrops

there is still the Spokane Indians

Also Indianapolis. Neither team is affiliated with the Cleveland team and MLB has only said that Cleveland's history and minor league affiliates must use the Guardians (or other non-Native American) nickname. Hell, even the Braves still exist...

[Hooray Saturday]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Hell, even the Braves still exist...

they will be the Hammers soon enough!

[MathBandit]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Hell, even the Braves still exist...

The issue with Atlanta is that the bigger problem isn't the name (especially if it switches to something like Hammers), but the Chop. And I don't think anything the team/MLB does will get rid of that until a generation passes and the people going to games realize it's no longer something reasonable for a mostly-white crowd to be doing.

[Hooray Saturday]

Originally Posted by MathBandit

The issue with Atlanta is that the bigger problem isn't the name (especially if it switches to something like Hammers), but the Chop. And I don't think anything the team/MLB does will get rid of that until a generation passes and the people going to games realize it's no longer something reasonable for a mostly-white crowd to be doing.

unfortunately the team still encourages it, they don't play the song, but they play the drumbeat and have the visual of the light-up war club chopping in the stadium and that definitely gets the rednecks excited to participate in some obnoxious cultural appropriation!

[BusterKing]

nm

[silvam14]

Originally Posted by Hooray Saturday

unfortunately the team still encourages it, they don't play the song, but they play the drumbeat and have the visual of the light-up war club chopping in the stadium and that definitely gets the rednecks excited to participate in some obnoxious cultural appropriation!

Well now, those well rounded souls in Cleveland can now all participate in a glorious new tradition when they all stand there with their arms folded as if they are guarding something. At least they’ve been used to standing like that at baseball games for generations now


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by MathBandit

The issue with Atlanta is that the bigger problem isn't the name (especially if it switches to something like Hammers), but the Chop. And I don't think anything the team/MLB does will get rid of that until a generation passes and the people going to games realize it's no longer something reasonable for a mostly-white crowd to be doing.

I mean, the issue with Cleveland wasn’t so much the name as the racist mascot, but that went from “people will complain but we aren’t getting rid of anything” to “okay it’s out and nobody can use the mascot anymore even for historical purposes” in a big hurry. The Atlanta team if anything has less to scrub, as they’ve stopped using Chief Nocahoma (ugh, puns are worse than racism) for years now TMK. Yes, there’s the Chop but they could always figure out how to transmogrify it into something else, like… the Hammer Blow…

[SnakePit2001]

Originally Posted by thehef

Unless something changes, the alternative to having to rename the Guardians to the Indians every single year for a historical game would be as follows:

1. At initial creation of your game, manually change the nickname from Guardians to Indians.
2. Make a backup of your teams.csv file (found in your ...data/stats folder)... just so you have it. You won't likely need it.
3. Replace your teams.csv file with a custom one that changes all refereces of Guardians to Indians. (Someone will undoubetedly make this simple mod; I certainly will as soon as v23 is released, unless someone else beats me to it.)
4. Make a backup of the modified teams.csv file because when OOTP updates, I believe it will overwrite this file.
5. Be aware of when OOTP updates, and when it does, repeat step 3.

That ought to do it, as far as I know... (I am not yet sure if something similar would need to be done with the ballparks.txt file that is found in the ...stats/database folder. Someone will know. If he doesn't yet, I can assure you that it won't be long until Silvam14 knows the answer )

The same process would apply to minor leagues, regarding the affiliates of Cleveland that have been renamed from Indians to Guardians, with the file in question being MiLBTeams.csv.

(The first caveat here is that, to the best of my knowledge, 1st-year minor-leaguers import to their rookie-year minor-league teams based upon the minor league team name - that is the link, so to speak. So if you were to use a csv file that renames, say, the 1940's & 50's Bakersfield Guardians to the Indians, any players whose debut year was with those Bakersfield teams would not import to that team; I assume they'd import as free agents instead. The second caveat is that I cannot speak to this definitively. I believe this is how works, though, assuming nothing about the minor-league import process is changing... Also, depending upon the era, this would be a larger issue with lower minor leagues, as that's where most players debut. So for me, I would probably restore the historically-accurate nicknames of the post 1950 AA and AAA teams, but would probably leave the lower minors alone. I mean, do I care that the 1950's North Platte Indians of the Nebraska State League are nick-named Indians or Guardians? I do not. YMMV )



As for non-Cleveland-affiliated historical minors teams, my understanding is that this historical revision is not supposed to apply to those. The example would be the Spokane Indians, who are not affiliated with Cleveland and currently have no intention of changing their name (I believe they have coordinated their logos & imagery with local tribes and therefore not too many panties are in a bunch on either side.)

I don't know how the implementation of the above steps would impact logos, unis, and that sort of thing. Nor do I yet know the answer to this:

Was anyone able to successfully make this mod? I am 100% fine with the Guardians playing in Cleveland in 2022, but when I play historical I do prefer accuracy. Fingers crossed someone may have started this project.

[ChrisJNelson]

Originally Posted by Hooray Saturday

unfortunately the team still encourages it, they don't play the song, but they play the drumbeat and have the visual of the light-up war club chopping in the stadium and that definitely gets the rednecks excited to participate in some obnoxious cultural appropriation!

As a lifelong Braves fan and Atlanta native, this is exactly right. I've sat out the chop in recent years once I realized how freaking weird and inappropriate it is, but I obviously realize it's going nowhere from the larger fanbase any time soon. (Probably never, given how half this country and even an even higher percentage in stages like GA and FL want to send us back to the stone age--they'll do it forever just out of spite) At the very least, the team should stop leading it in any fashion and that's a really simple, obvious change.

Also, switching to the Hammers would be freaking awesome.

[Beatles Eternally]

Originally Posted by Galeg

The Spiders sucked as a team historically and had no modern tie to Cleveland. We didn't want it. Most people here are fine with Guardians already from what I have seen.

Then you are quite ill-informed about the Cleveland Spiders. Look at their record from 1890-1899. Except for the infamous 1899 season, you will see a VERY good team.

And I thought that Cleveland fans knew their baseball history.