Cleveland Indians / Guardians

[Murph3]

So erasing history for the sake of political correctness/ wokeness. Glad my Braves aren’t falling for this BS.

Is the movie Major League now banned?

[bababui]

Originally Posted by tward13

For one, calling them "Indians", and for another, having a stupid grinning red man for a logo, does NOT honor them.

Many tribes call themselves Indians. https://sanmanuel-nsn.gov/ https://www.choctaw.org/ https://www.cahuilla.net/ http://www.gtbindians.org/

[nutt]

Originally Posted by Murph3

So erasing history for the sake of political correctness/ wokeness. Glad my Braves aren’t falling for this BS.

Is the movie Major League now banned?

Again, that's not OOTP's stance. That is the Cleveland Guardians franchise stance. I don't see how everybody is missing this.

[silvam14]

Maybe everyone here can stipulate that we all know it’s not OOTP’s decision to do this. If we can all acknowledge that, then we can move on to what can be done about this.

I don’t know about anyone else, but As a historical player of the game, will there be a way that I can easily fix the name of the the Cleveland team from 1919 to 2021 to say anything other than guardians

Also, As far as league history goes, when I start my game in 1994, will will the league history now show that in 1920, the Cleveland guardians were in the World Series? If so, can I fix that easily?

Historical players like accuracy I think. In a game where playing with transactions and lineups as they were used throughout history is possible, I think asking to be able to have the team names be accurate isn’t too much to ask.


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[AESP_pres]

Originally Posted by nutt

Again, that's not OOTP's stance. That is the Cleveland Guardians franchise stance. I don't see how everybody is missing this.

We don't, at least I don't, but the thing is that it will be a pain in the ass for us who play historical. I mean why, by exemple, we will need to manually change the name of the Cleveland Forrest Citys or the Cleveland Spiders because a team in 2022 is named the Guardians? It's like the Cubs preventing the use of Chicago White Stockings or Chicago Orphans to be used in the game...


As I said I get it but it's a pain in the ass and considering all the work arround I have to do to play in the 19th century I didn't need more pain in the ass because of something that had nothing to do with the years I play...

[nutt]

Originally Posted by AESP_pres

We don't, at least I don't, but the thing is that it will be a pain in the ass for us who play historical. I mean why, by exemple, we will need to manually change the name of the Cleveland Forrest Citys or the Cleveland Spiders because a team in 2022 is named the Guardians? It's like the Cubs preventing the use of Chicago White Stockings or Chicago Orphans to be used in the game...


As I said I get it but it's a pain in the ass and considering all the work arround I have to do to play in the 19th century I didn't need more pain in the ass because of something that had nothing to do with the years I play...

I mean I get it but like silvam said, this isn't an OOTP thing and people are making that about it. I'd love for them to be called the Spiders from 19whatever through 2021 (I forgot what year they became the Indians).

Just sucks that if I want to start in 1994 that it will auto-force a change back to Guardians in 1995. That's the only thing I wish didn't exist but hey, I stopped complaining about things I have no control over in this world about five years ago and it made my life much better.

[MK_735]

Originally Posted by nutt

Again, that's not OOTP's stance. That is the Cleveland Guardians franchise stance. I don't see how everybody is missing this.

Because they are being performative in their disagreement. Just look at the people saying is the movie Major League canceled. It's a bad faith triggered response.

[r0nster]

Originally Posted by Murph3

So erasing history for the sake of political correctness/ wokeness. Glad my Braves aren’t falling for this BS.

Is the movie Major League now banned?

I agree and the Braves got the last laugh too... Ended up rooting for the Braves in the World Series because of the woke nonsense

[silvam14]

Originally Posted by r0nster

I agree and the Braves got the last laugh too... Ended up rooting for the Braves in the World Series because of the woke nonsense

I rooted for the Braves too

[andyhdz]

So many riled up people who have zero connection to the affected population this is about and no your great great grandfather didn't really marry a Cherokee princess.

[Syd Thrift]

Lots and lots of people in this post hating on the free market when the invisible hand doesn’t move the way they want it to. TBH I didn’t think the name was necessarily racist but the mascot sure as hell was and it makes sense that a corporate entity whose largest purpose is to maximize profits might not want to needlessly offend people, and so they went the safest route possible which was to get rid of both.

Keep whining that y’all hate capitalism…

[AESP_pres]

No idea what you're talking about... I have no problem if the team changed its name, to be honest I don't care at all if they are named the Indians, the Guardians, the Dinosaurs or the Losers.

My problem is that it doesn't make sense that the Forest Citys, the Blues, the Bronchos, the Naps and the Indians won't exist in a game anymore when one of the game selling point is "historical accuracy"... nothing to do with capitalism or socialism or whatever you're talking about for the second or third times in that thread.

If I ever reach 2022 in a simulation I'll call them the Guardians since it's the name of the team. But just like I wouldn't call the Expos the Nationals in 1969 I will certainly not call the Cleveland Forrest Citys the Cleveland Guardians in 1871 because it isn't historical accuracy.

I don't care what they call themselves today because it's non relevant in my historical game... just like it's irrelevant that the Cubs aren't the White Stockings or the Braves aren't the Boston Red Stockings.

[silvam14]

Originally Posted by AESP_pres

No idea what you're talking about... I have no problem if the team changed its name, to be honest I don't care at all if they are named the Indians, the Guardians, the Dinosaurs or the Losers.

My problem is that it doesn't make sense that the Forest Citys, the Blues, the Bronchos, the Naps and the Indians won't exist in a game anymore when one of the game selling point is "historical accuracy"... nothing to do with capitalism or socialism or whatever you're talking about for the second or third times in that thread.

If I ever reach 2022 in a simulation I'll call them the Guardians since it's the name of the team. But just like I wouldn't call the Expos the Nationals in 1969 I will certainly not call the Cleveland Forrest Citys the Cleveland Guardians in 1871 because it isn't historical accuracy.

I don't care what they call themselves today because it's non relevant in my historical game... just like it's irrelevant that the Cubs aren't the White Stockings or the Braves aren't the Boston Red Stockings.

I don’t know if this is the case. I believe all the names before the Ind***s still are there. So it’s only, what 1919 and on you have to worry about.


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[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by AESP_pres

No idea what you're talking about... I have no problem if the team changed its name, to be honest I don't care at all if they are named the Indians, the Guardians, the Dinosaurs or the Losers.

My problem is that it doesn't make sense that the Forest Citys, the Blues, the Bronchos, the Naps and the Indians won't exist in a game anymore when one of the game selling point is "historical accuracy"... nothing to do with capitalism or socialism or whatever you're talking about for the second or third times in that thread.

If I ever reach 2022 in a simulation I'll call them the Guardians since it's the name of the team. But just like I wouldn't call the Expos the Nationals in 1969 I will certainly not call the Cleveland Forrest Citys the Cleveland Guardians in 1871 because it isn't historical accuracy.

I don't care what they call themselves today because it's non relevant in my historical game... just like it's irrelevant that the Cubs aren't the White Stockings or the Braves aren't the Boston Red Stockings.

I haven’t seen any evidence that MLB and the Guardians are enforcing their licensing on any team name other than the Cleveland Indians. You’re certainly free to call a team the Forest Citys, who by the way you’d have to create from scratch anyway because the game doesn’t at last count automatically “do” 19th century leagues with real rosters. Also of course there’s no lineage between the Forest Citys and Spiders and the AL team.

And what I’m talking about is, this is a licensing issue, an issue the Guardians organization themselves is enforcing on all people and companies who want to use their likenesses. There’s no “woke”ness going on, whatever that’s supposed to mean this week, just a corporate entity saying “you can’t use this name and logo anymore”. Which, OOTP doesn’t even restrict you from adding your own back in. Here’s a little secret: in the league I’m running, I have the name and the uniforms and for now anyway even the racist ass logo (I might think about getting rid of that in the near future).

This is all, frankly, a whole lot of performative whining over an issue that will have no bearing on how anyone plays the game, with I guess the possible exception that people playing PT might not be able to upload Chief Wahoo as their mascot.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by David Watts

... as a historical player I have to ask, if we have historical expansion turned on and we change the Cleveland franchise to the historically correct nickname, aren't we going to have to do so every year? Have to think based on the way historical operates, OOTP will switch the name to Guardians each offseason.

Unless something changes, the alternative to having to rename the Guardians to the Indians every single year for a historical game would be as follows:

1. At initial creation of your game, manually change the nickname from Guardians to Indians.
2. Make a backup of your teams.csv file (found in your ...data/stats folder)... just so you have it. You won't likely need it.
3. Replace your teams.csv file with a custom one that changes all refereces of Guardians to Indians. (Someone will undoubetedly make this simple mod; I certainly will as soon as v23 is released, unless someone else beats me to it.)
4. Make a backup of the modified teams.csv file because when OOTP updates, I believe it will overwrite this file.
5. Be aware of when OOTP updates, and when it does, repeat step 3.

That ought to do it, as far as I know... (I am not yet sure if something similar would need to be done with the ballparks.txt file that is found in the ...stats/database folder. Someone will know. If he doesn't yet, I can assure you that it won't be long until Silvam14 knows the answer )

The same process would apply to minor leagues, regarding the affiliates of Cleveland that have been renamed from Indians to Guardians, with the file in question being MiLBTeams.csv.

(The first caveat here is that, to the best of my knowledge, 1st-year minor-leaguers import to their rookie-year minor-league teams based upon the minor league team name - that is the link, so to speak. So if you were to use a csv file that renames, say, the 1940's & 50's Bakersfield Guardians to the Indians, any players whose debut year was with those Bakersfield teams would not import to that team; I assume they'd import as free agents instead. The second caveat is that I cannot speak to this definitively. I believe this is how works, though, assuming nothing about the minor-league import process is changing... Also, depending upon the era, this would be a larger issue with lower minor leagues, as that's where most players debut. So for me, I would probably restore the historically-accurate nicknames of the post 1950 AA and AAA teams, but would probably leave the lower minors alone. I mean, do I care that the 1950's North Platte Indians of the Nebraska State League are nick-named Indians or Guardians? I do not. YMMV )

Originally Posted by Mr. Marlin

I wonder if this will apply to teams like the Spokane or Indianapolis Indians who are not affiliated with Cleveland...

As for non-Cleveland-affiliated historical minors teams, my understanding is that this historical revision is not supposed to apply to those. The example would be the Spokane Indians, who are not affiliated with Cleveland and currently have no intention of changing their name (I believe they have coordinated their logos & imagery with local tribes and therefore not too many panties are in a bunch on either side.)

I don't know how the implementation of the above steps would impact logos, unis, and that sort of thing. Nor do I yet know the answer to this:

Originally Posted by silvam14

Also, As far as league history goes, when I start my game in 1994, will will the league history now show that in 1920, the Cleveland guardians were in the World Series? If so, can I fix that easily?

[Antonin]

Originally Posted by Murph3

So erasing history for the sake of political correctness/ wokeness. Glad my Braves aren’t falling for this BS.

Is the movie Major League now banned?

For crying out loud. No, the movie Major League is not banned. It's very sad that comments from people with your point of view descend so quickly into the absurd.

I don't really understand why you guys are so emotionally attached to these names. If you really want to "honor" the people who were here when the Europeans arrived in North and South America, why not learn about their culture(s)? Learn one of their languages. Contribute to a charity that addresses problems on the reservations like alcoholism and opioid addiction.

When I see hundreds of people doing that silly "tomahawk chop" gesture, it seems like they just do it to poke their thumb in the eye of racial minorities and those evil libs. You are nervous because the world you thought you dominated is changing. You don't control the entire planet any more. People of color are sick and tired of "going along to get along." When I was a kid, the white players on my little league baseball team used to rub my head for luck. I'm black. I put up with it then, because "going along to get along" was a primary component of survival strategy for African-Americans. You just did what you had to do to get by. But I doubt that sort of thing would be tolerated now. Enough is enough.

You guys can't order and rearrange peoples and cultures anymore, and that makes you feel insecure.

In a way, it's sad. And it makes me very pessimistic that American society will become more harmonious during my lifetime. You guys just don't listen. You don't want to listen.

You guys are angry because you think people who don't look like you want to censor you. That's why you complain so bitterly about "woke" this and "woke" that.

But you censor yourself every day. If you have a female boss, you certainly don't use the "b" word when she's around. You don't use certain language around your female co-workers. If you did, the HR department would call you in within minutes, and you would be fired.

You don't tell dirty jokes around your young daughters, your elderly relatives or your priest/rabbi/minister.

And you definitely don't use the "N-word" anywhere a black person can hear you. Not if you care about your personal safety.

Total freedom to do and say whatever you want to anyone and everyone just can't exist if you intend to live in society. This is (or should be) common sense. To exist as human beings we have to respect each other. Self-restraint is a good thing. It separates human civilization from the way animals live.

Enough of the silly ethnic stereotypes. Treat people who are different the way you yourself would want to be treated.

[pauwoo]

Originally Posted by SouthernStar71

All I know is that I like the red Guardians cap on Amazon and might order one. Won't be playing them as I won't be playing MLB at the start.

I picked up the red bill cap off lids.com… I really like the C they went with.

[Harry Doyle]

Originally Posted by Antonin

For crying out loud. No, the movie Major League is not banned. It's very sad that comments from people with your point of view descend so quickly into the absurd.

I don't really understand why you guys are so emotionally attached to these names. If you really want to "honor" the people who were here when the Europeans arrived in North and South America, why not learn about their culture(s)? Learn one of their languages. Contribute to a charity that addresses problems on the reservations like alcoholism and opioid addiction.

When I see hundreds of people doing that silly "tomahawk chop" gesture, it seems like they just do it to poke their thumb in the eye of racial minorities and those evil libs. You are nervous because the world you thought you dominated is changing. You don't control the entire planet any more. People of color are sick and tired of "going along to get along." When I was a kid, the white players on my little league baseball team used to rub my head for luck. I'm black. I put up with it then, because "going along to get along" was a primary component of survival strategy for African-Americans. You just did what you had to do to get by. But I doubt that sort of thing would be tolerated now. Enough is enough.

You guys can't order and rearrange peoples and cultures anymore, and that makes you feel insecure.

In a way, it's sad. And it makes me very pessimistic that American society will become more harmonious during my lifetime. You guys just don't listen. You don't want to listen.

You guys are angry because you think people who don't look like you want to censor you. That's why you complain so bitterly about "woke" this and "woke" that.

But you censor yourself every day. If you have a female boss, you certainly don't use the "b" word when she's around. You don't use certain language around your female co-workers. If you did, the HR department would call you in within minutes, and you would be fired.

You don't tell dirty jokes around your young daughters, your elderly relatives or your priest/rabbi/minister.

And you definitely don't use the "N-word" anywhere a black person can hear you. Not if you care about your personal safety.

Total freedom to do and say whatever you want to anyone and everyone just can't exist if you intend to live in society. This is (or should be) common sense. To exist as human beings we have to respect each other. Self-restraint is a good thing. It separates human civilization from the way animals live.

Enough of the silly ethnic stereotypes. Treat people who are different the way you yourself would want to be treated.

Thank you.

[BirdWatcher]

Originally Posted by thehef

Unless something changes, the alternative to having to rename the Guardians to the Indians every single year for a historical game would be as follows:

1. At initial creation of your game, manually change the nickname from Guardians to Indians.
2. Make a backup of your teams.csv file (found in your ...data/stats folder)... just so you have it. You won't likely need it.
3. Replace your teams.csv file with a custom one that changes all refereces of Guardians to Indians. (Someone will undoubetedly make this simple mod; I certainly will as soon as v23 is released, unless someone else beats me to it.)
4. Make a backup of the modified teams.csv file because when OOTP updates, I believe it will overwrite this file.
5. Be aware of when OOTP updates, and when it does, repeat step 3.

That ought to do it, as far as I know... (I am not yet sure if something similar would need to be done with the ballparks.txt file that is found in the ...stats/database folder. Someone will know. If he doesn't yet, I can assure you that it won't be long until Silvam14 knows the answer )

The same process would apply to minor leagues, regarding the affiliates of Cleveland that have been renamed from Indians to Guardians, with the file in question being MiLBTeams.csv.

(The first caveat here is that, to the best of my knowledge, 1st-year minor-leaguers import to their rookie-year minor-league teams based upon the minor league team name - that is the link, so to speak. So if you were to use a csv file that renames, say, the 1940's & 50's Bakersfield Guardians to the Indians, any players whose debut year was with those Bakersfield teams would not import to that team; I assume they'd import as free agents instead. The second caveat is that I cannot speak to this definitively. I believe this is how works, though, assuming nothing about the minor-league import process is changing... Also, depending upon the era, this would be a larger issue with lower minor leagues, as that's where most players debut. So for me, I would probably restore the historically-accurate nicknames of the post 1950 AA and AAA teams, but would probably leave the lower minors alone. I mean, do I care that the 1950's North Platte Indians of the Nebraska State League are nick-named Indians or Guardians? I do not. YMMV )



As for non-Cleveland-affiliated historical minors teams, my understanding is that this historical revision is not supposed to apply to those. The example would be the Spokane Indians, who are not affiliated with Cleveland and currently have no intention of changing their name (I believe they have coordinated their logos & imagery with local tribes and therefore not too many panties are in a bunch on either side.)

I don't know how the implementation of the above steps would impact logos, unis, and that sort of thing. Nor do I yet know the answer to this:

Unless I am missing something, this is an entire post that is actually about OOTP and the realities of how to navigate historical game-play given the licensing issues around this nickname change for the Cleveland franchise of MLB.

Are you sure this kind of practical, factual, OOTP-focused comment is appropriate here, thehef?

(Taking the tongue out of the cheek, well done. More of this please, people.)

[texasmame]

**pokes head in**


*whispers to self* This topic is still a thing?


**shakes head and leaves**