Is When We Warm-up Relievers and Bring Them In Realistic?

[kq76]

I find that I need to warm-up relievers with only 1 out in the half inning before I want to bring them in, sometimes even with none out. Is that what we usually see IRL?

I do find that they usually (but not always!) pitch fine if I bring them in when they still say they're "warming", but it seems like it takes quite a long time for them to get to "ready". I feel like relievers warm up faster IRL.

Has anyone noticed whether some pitchers take longer than others? I've never tested this, but I do wonder if, say, pitchers who normally start take longer to warm up than strictly relievers.

I don't like to pull my starters unless it clearly looks like they've lost their stuff or they're about to lose it (e.g., 2 hard hit balls late) so I'm constantly having to warm up relievers early in anticipation of what might happen.

[Syd Thrift]

I don’t think it takes any difference in time to warm a pitcher up. That said, I just leave the rule off, not because I don’t think it works but because I’m not as smart baseball-wise as a ML manager and I definitely don’t want to think about pitching changes that hard (do you not bother to warm a player up until the inning you start to need them in? Do you risk tiring them out while warming them up? When do you start? If a player has been bad, is it because I’m consistently warming them up too much or too little?). I just assume that’s abstracted the way so many other things in the game actually are and I go from there. For me, there’s a fine line between interesting anguish and anxiety, and that’s one thing that falls on the other side of the line.

YMMV of course; indeed, as much as anything else, this is one part of the managerial experience I’m sure a lot of people want to simulate. I personally would also be worried that I was doing warmups too well except that I play against myself so to speak and also the AI doesn’t use the rule at all.

[twins_34]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

I don’t think it takes any difference in time to warm a pitcher up.

Well in the online league we found out the hard way that it does in fact, affect the pitcher if they are not warmed up and put right into the game. I had one of my relievers come in throw 12 straight balls before we seen a strike in a pitch by pitch scenario and I was pitching to batter and not using pitch around. So, I sat him and brought in Ian Hamilton, he ended up walking in 3 runners on another 12 straight balls. Then all of a sudden, he got 2 outs and the inning was over.

My opponent then in the 7th or 8th, him being up 5-1 brought in his first reliever... Something happened and intentional walk happened that loaded the bases... but my very next batter on the first pitch, I swung and he hit a grand slam putting me up 6-5, came to the 9thj inning and I brought in, what should have been my Ace closer, Will Smith first pitch... HR. Tie game. Next guy walked, then another Walk, then 2 ground outs.

The next inning Smith shut the team down 1-2-3.... in the 11th other team brought in a reliever and my first swing, HR. So now I am up 7-6. I left Smith in and he got the win...

We then found out after the game was over that the warm up rule, somehow got turned on. So we learned for a fact if you have the warm up rule turned on, it will in fact, mess with your pitchers.

[Syd Thrift]

That’s not what I was saying. If there’s a warmup option, of course it’s going to matter. I was saying that a guy with 20 stamina and a guy with 80 would take the exact same time to warmup, is all.

[twins_34]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

That’s not what I was saying. If there’s a warmup option, of course it’s going to matter. I was saying that a guy with 20 stamina and a guy with 80 would take the exact same time to warmup, is all.

Ahh Got ya. Well in any case, now people know if it is on and they don't warm their pitchers up, it does really hurt your pitchers... I am like you, I don't wanna mess with warmup rules.

[kq76]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

...

That's a good point, we can turn it off. So I just played a game with it disabled. I missed it. Having to look ahead, maybe not warming them up soon enough, and then maybe giving up more runs then you might have if you could have just inserted the reliever as soon as you wanted, almost feels like cheating now.

For example, the game I just played we were up by 3 in the 9th and our reliever gave up a hard hit with no outs. With the option on, I may have only started warming up my closer after that first hit (I may have started warming him up the inning before, but maybe not). And instead of being forced to warm him up and maybe giving up another couple of hits (I find warming up a reliever takes a minimum of 2 PAs, some times more), I was able to bring him in right away and he shut them down in quick order. Had I been forced to warm him up first, there's a good chance we would have given up 2 runs and it would have been a nail biter.

I realize the option wasn't always there, but now it feels like selecting a lower difficulty level. I just can't help feel it needs a little tweaking. It's one of the few things in the game that really makes you feel like an in-game manager. I also like that it gives you recommendations as to whom you should warm up.

And I do think it, some times, takes players longer to warm up. I wonder if maybe the game is taking into consideration longer plate appearances vs other times because I haven't really identified any specific players as routinely taking a longer or shorter time to warm up than others, but some times I am surprised it took less time than I thought it would.

[MikeS369]

I have seen pitchers that take longer to warm up than other pitchers on my team. It is rare but it happens.

[MathBandit]

I play with it off because turning it on would drag out games much much longer and take me an incredible amount of extra micromanagement work for zero effect. In order to play optimally with the warmup rule you just have to constantly be rotating guys in and out of warming up so that you're always at a point that you have at least two viable relievers to bring in for the very next PA (or the first eligible PA if you just brought in a reliever).

[Sweed]

I'll throw in my 2 cents..

Some RP do take longer than others to warm up. I see it in my game fairly regularly but that may be due to my small turnover in RP's.

As to when? So many variables that listing them would lead to some "duh" responses Having said that, in general, I look at the current P's pitch count, performance so far, how he pitches to opposite side batters. My normal timing is to get a RP up with 2 outs recorded by my opponent. This gives him at least one batter and between innings which is normally enough in my experience.

Most of all use the "auto sit once warm" option to prevent over use in the pen. It's not a cheat but rather your "bullpen coach" along with the player knowing when to stop.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by MathBandit

I play with it off because turning it on would drag out games much much longer and take me an incredible amount of extra micromanagement work for zero effect. In order to play optimally with the warmup rule you just have to constantly be rotating guys in and out of warming up so that you're always at a point that you have at least two viable relievers to bring in for the very next PA (or the first eligible PA if you just brought in a reliever).

We all play the game "our way" and there's nothing wrong with that

My thought though would be a real manager does not get guys up and rotate through them as it would wear out the pen. He has to plan on how to use the pen and yes, those plans can go to pot at any time.

As to OOTP and "zero effect"? The effect is if you haven't planned properly you won't have a RP ready when needed. NOT using warmups means you may be winning games you shouldn't be winning. I do get the time saving of not warming up and that is a valid reason, I've done it myself at times and always in ST. My way of allowing for that was to NOT use a RP if, in my mind, he wouldn't have already been warming up (determined by pitch count, performance etc). IOW if my current P went from "lights out" to "crash and burn" after getting two outs? I wouldn't replace him for another batter or two to simulate the delay that would have happened in that situation. That's just me as I'm certainly not implying doing otherwise is a "cheat" because it's not. It is just "my way" nothing more, nothing less.

[MathBandit]

I disagree that a RL manager has to go through hoops of waiting for multiple batters to pull a pitcher. There are a million ways for managers to stall for time in the current game (might be slightly less so next year), and failing everything all he has to do is tell the pitcher to reach for his elbow and all of a sudden the next reliever has as long as they want to get ready.

When I say "zero effect", I mean that playing essentially without the warmup rule is absolutely possible, just requires going into the pen every single PA for the entire game to sit/start different pitchers so that you always have 3-4 relievers on hand at any moment that are a mound visit away from being Ready. It would make the game take about 3x as long to play out for zero net effect other than a ton of immersion-breaking micromanagement of having guys warm/sit every batter or two for the whole game.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by MathBandit

I disagree that a RL manager has to go through hoops of waiting for multiple batters to pull a pitcher. There are a million ways for managers to stall for time in the current game (might be slightly less so next year), and failing everything all he has to do is tell the pitcher to reach for his elbow and all of a sudden the next reliever has as long as they want to get ready.

When I say "zero effect", I mean that playing essentially without the warmup rule is absolutely possible, just requires going into the pen every single PA for the entire game to sit/start different pitchers so that you always have 3-4 relievers on hand at any moment that are a mound visit away from being Ready. It would make the game take about 3x as long to play out for zero net effect other than a ton of immersion-breaking micromanagement of having guys warm/sit every batter or two for the whole game.

The bold, to me, is highly unrealistic. If just doesn't happen IRL as it would wear a pen out in short order. He can't do that on a daily basis. Guys need days off and can't be expected to get ready daily and not be used. There aren't enough RP in the pen to sustain that model.

Books could be written on all of the variables that go into bullpen management and RP usage. Sure in today's game guys are getting ready when years ago nobody would be but... they are getting ready as part of a plan to replace the current P with almost no regard as to no how he is performing.

So we could certainly go back of forth with the "but what about this, what about that" and both be right and wrong dependent on circumstance. Not particularly interested in wasting my time with that.

[MathBandit]

We can agree to disagree. I think the unrealistic model is the OOTP pitching set-up in general which forces you to warm up relievers way before you'd need to in RL, makes managing a pitching staff in-game very constrained, and places way too many artificial limitations on managing a pitching staff on a macro level as well. It basically forces the user to make the same mistakes that RL managers to when it comes to overall pitcher usage, so to me removing the arbitrary warmup rule is one way to avoid yet more unrealistic and immersion-breaking behaviour.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by MathBandit

We can agree to disagree. I think the unrealistic model is the OOTP pitching set-up in general which forces you to warm up relievers way before you'd need to in RL, makes managing a pitching staff in-game very constrained, and places way too many artificial limitations on managing a pitching staff on a macro level as well. It basically forces the user to make the same mistakes that RL managers to when it comes to overall pitcher usage, so to me removing the arbitrary warmup rule is one way to avoid yet more unrealistic and immersion-breaking behaviour.

Certainly agree that OOTP pitching model has it's limits. It is what it is, I guess Again no problem with anyone that decides to not use warmups and why I stated it's not a cheat. Not you, but many, would take what I said without the disclaimer as "my way" being superior and "not cheating"

You find it immersion-breaking. I find it adds immersion despite the shortcomings. Markus giving us options and so many ways to play is a strength of OOTP. I find your posts informative and well reasoned. Agreeing to disagree with you is not a bad thing.

[oldfatbaldguy]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Do you risk tiring them out while warming them up?

This used to be a problem, before the "auto-sit" function was introduced. With that enabled, they sit down before they get to "tiring," and they stay "ready" for a while after that.

The most common issue I have with the mechanics of warming up relievers is that it's impossible to get a guy up during the pause between innings, because OOTP doesn't pause between innings. So yes, sometimes you have to get a guy up when you're batting, and if your plan is to get him up with two outs you have to understand that also means one out and a man on first. Once up, he will continue to throw between innings and he's usually (maybe always?) ready when the other team comes to bat. This is a minor issue as long as you're aware of it.

You also can't warm up a two-way player when you're batting and his spot in the order isn't coming up soon (or at least you couldn't the last time I had a two-way player). This sounds arcane but it's actually a larger issue than the first one because it prevents you from using a guy, sometimes.

[kq76]

Originally Posted by Sweed

It's not a cheat

I'd like to point out that I didn't mean to imply "if you play that way, you're cheating" only that it feels like it's cheating if I do it.

It's like other video games. For the longest time in Civ5 I played on the Prince difficulty level because: 1) I wasn't that good at the game, and 2) it was supposed to be the level that was the most even playing field with the AI. I never cared if someone else played on a lower level, Prince was just good for me.

Originally Posted by Sweed

Most of all use the "auto sit once warm" option to prevent over use in the pen. It's not a cheat but rather your "bullpen coach" along with the player knowing when to stop.

Thanks for pointing that out. I hadn't noticed it and while that wasn't the main issue I have with the warming up option (to be clear, it's the, some times, taking too long), it was a minor annoyance as I thought some tired too soon as well. So that solves that part.

Incidentally, this morning on Nothing Personal with David Samson he said starters take 40-42 minutes to warm up. I knew they took awhile, but damn! Has anyone heard from someone who's been in the game a long time how long, in minutes, it takes the average reliever to warm up? EDIT: It'd be even better if they said the range.

Originally Posted by oldfatbaldguy

...

The most common issue I have with the mechanics of warming up relievers is that it's impossible to get a guy up during the pause between innings, because OOTP doesn't pause between innings. So yes, sometimes you have to get a guy up when you're batting, and if your plan is to get him up with two outs you have to understand that also means one out and a man on first. Once up, he will continue to throw between innings and he's usually (maybe always?) ready when the other team comes to bat. This is a minor issue as long as you're aware of it.

...

Thanks for bringing that up. I thought about doing the same. It is my hope that the "time between half innings" is being factored into how long it takes relievers to warm up, but I'm not sure it is. And even if it is, it would be nice if we somehow had the option to warm them up right after the last out.

[oldfatbaldguy]

I'm confident that the time between half-innings is factored in, if you've gotten the reliever up while the previous half-inning was still going. I'm not sure that if the half-inning ends one pitch after he started he'll be on ready, but he'll be further along than one pitch.

[PSUColonel]

basically I DON'T use this option, and won't until the AI is capable of doing the same.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by kq76

I'd like to point out that I didn't mean to imply "if you play that way, you're cheating" only that it feels like it's cheating if I do it.

No worries, I didn't take your post that way at all.

I only stated it's not a cheat to make sure nobody thought I was implying that it was.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

basically I DON'T use this option, and won't until the AI is capable of doing the same.

Capable is the key word there. Until it is capable some of us are happy to let the AI have the advantage and, at the same time, maybe feel we're adding a bit of immersion to boot. Obviously YMMVs.