Outstanding post on OOTP defense II

[WhiskyTango]

https://www.reddit.com/r/OOTP/commen...tp_and_why_it/

Another compelling post on defense.

[Garlon]

With catcher framing this is highly depends upon the strategy setting of 0-10. I do not see in that post what setting he is using.

Obviously, we do not want unrealistic pitch framing results.

I do not recommend a setting above 3.

An issue with the framing is that the in-game metrics are not reliable so we would need a study like what was done in that post.

Basically, Varitek should not be higher than 125 to 140 framing runs saved for his career. That provides a realistic strength of framing. The issue is that without reliable framing run saved metrics in the game it is difficult to determine the setting that models Varitek properly.

[WhiskyTango]

I have no grounds by which to question you. But you seem to be saying framing was released by OOTP _without_ running such studies?

[twins_34]

Originally Posted by WhiskyTango

https://www.reddit.com/r/OOTP/commen...tp_and_why_it/

Another compelling post on defense.

First off, all of this data is now very obsolete as things have changed a ton in OOTP since this was written for OOTP 21 or 22. Not sure which game this was taken from (I believe it was 22). Catcher Ability was the most important rating when it came to a catcher back then.

Like Garlon said, you now have the ability to actually set and adjust framing from 0-10.

When this was written, changing the affect of faming was not possible Framing was not even a rating. Framing has now became its own ability rating on catchers as of, OOTP 25 and under Stats & AI you can adjust it's impact on your game, which was not a thing in OOTP 21 or 22. This was all based off a rating called Catcher Ability which has now become blocking and framing both based on their own ratings now.

So honestly, following anything from 4 years ago is kind of silly because SO MUCH has changed in the game in the past 4 years, and then, when it comes to this game, Garlon IS someone you want to listen too because most of the stuff you play is based off hard work he has done for a LONG time for the Development team when it deals with ratings and many other things.

[WhiskyTango]

Thanks! I'm sure many would find what you say extremely helpful.

Yes, I tend to read Garlon's posts closely (a recent one on defense was very helpful). Still, it sounds like the 100000 game scenario in that OP is not conducted by OOTP before releasing features to the wild.

[jaa36]

I researched this a bit last year and came away with the following findings in OOTP 25, with the framing importance rating set to the default setting...
-the difference between a 20/80 framer and an 80/80 framer for a starting catcher is around 30-40 runs (so 3-4 wins) per year. But of course, you'd never actually want to play a 20/80 framing catcher.
-more importantly, the difference between a 60/80 framer (which is roughly average for a starting catcher in a typical league) and an 80/80 framer is around 10-15 runs (so 1-1.5 wins) per year.

I estimated this by setting up two teams of "average" players across the board, then moving individuals ratings for single players up or down, then simming 100 seasons worth of games in the simulation module.

So certainly nothing to sneeze at, but also something that can be made up without too much difficulty by a good hitter.

[WhiskyTango]

Currently, in August, league leader has 7.2 FRM. If he reaches ~10 for the season that would be ~realistic (quasi-historical sim, 1933)? I had the FRM setting on 5 and since Garlon's post turned it down to 2.

[Garlon]

What is difficult about tuning catcher framing in OOTP is converting the increase in K ( and decrease in BB) into runs saved.

The ratings are relative to other catchers in terms of K rate.

I would think that an additional 4 K would be worth more than about 1 run saved just on hits in balls in play and by taking away HR opportunities. Those additional 4 K are also reducing BB too. I would need to do a conversion for each season to provide the estimated increase in K to covert to 1 run saved. It is probably something like every additional 3.5 K are worth a run saved.

However, how is OOTP doing the conversion and tracking framing runs saved?

When I would look at the league history it was like 95% of the catchers who ever played in my league had positive framing runs saved for their career which is of course impossible.

I have not looked into OOTP 26 yet to see if that reporting has been corrected but without the league average framing coming out to 0 it is very difficult to actually what is going on in the game.

[WhiskyTango]

Would be better to turn it off?

[Garlon]

I kept it off for my leagues in OOTP 25 because I had no way of tracking the strength of it or determining if it was working as intended.

I would like to see it work properly and determine the correct setting though.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by Garlon

I kept it off for my leagues in OOTP 25 because I had no way of tracking the strength of it or determining if it was working as intended.

I would like to see it work properly and determine the correct setting though.

If OOTP is going to model catchers cheating the umpires then for Gaylord Perry's pitches it should list a spitball! LOL

[Syd Thrift]

I feel like part of the issue with framing is that there used to be, at least potentially, a bigger effect, then STAT NERDS figured out that there was one around 20ish years ago, baseball looked at the guys who were good at it and trained everyone to be more like them, and there’s less of a spread now. There’s still some difference between guys, like Cal Raleigh saved 13 runs which is what, about a win and a half?, last year, but it’s not necessarily as pronounced as it might have been. For that reason I have it set to 7 for my historically-based league but YMMV.

I’m not sure why Varitek was brought up… by the numbers per FanGraphs he was awful at framing but we also only have his stats from the end of his career and I’d assume that like everything else in baseball it follows an aging curve. I don’t really remember him having a big rep as a defensive wizard - he was more of a guy who was decent enough to not kill you behind the plate but a net positive to the Red Sox because he was such a good hitter at a key defensive position. We have a relatively small history of framing runs but I do see that early in the history of the statistic you did get seasons like Russell Martin saving 30 runs or Brian McCann saving 35 (60 over 2 seasons!). The “all time” record is 41.5 by Jonathan Lucroy in 2011; in spite of the fact of more Ks in recent years (which you would assume lead to a bigger spread in framing), only one player in the top 30 has come after 2017.

Again YMMV but I think the “ideal” spread for pre, I don’t know, 2012 baseball should get you some occasional 40 framing run seasons, which, yeah, can mean that a top catcher could be worth a ton, like that’s Andruw Jones or Ozzie Smith levels of impact on the game.

As for the numbers not being zeroed out to average… yeah, that’s also an issue, but not just with Framing Runs. I’m sure the game calculates them based on an algorithm based on the current year or something similar and if your league happens to have more positive pitch framers than IRL then the total amount of runs saved will likely be positive. In turn it’d be cool to recalibrate that per league. I’ve seen the same effect with fielding zone based ratings, although I *think* that’s been a little bit better in recent years.

[uruguru]

Another unique thing about framing is that it's an ability that you can turn up, turn down, or completely turn off at a league-wide level. And a catcher's overall rating considers his framing ability at some unspecified level, even if you turn it off completely.

[kq76]

I don't know what it should be (I think Syd makes a great point that with them all being taught this now, there's probably far less of a spread), but I just think my defense first catcher this last season wasn't nearly as good defensively as I expected him to be and with this thread I checked my league-wide rating and I see it's only at 1(?!). So I'll definitely be bumping it up, maybe to 5.

[Syd Thrift]

Just to follow up I'm seeing Framing Runs in my early-70s league look like they're going to top out at 25 or so for the top guys, which is maaaaybe a little low especially since "average" looks like it's around +6 or +7. This is with them set to 7 instead of 5 so probably I'll need ("need") to adjust upwards next season.

[WhiskyTango]

By August, top C FRM in my MLB is 7.4. High? Low?

[Syd Thrift]

Cal Raleigh led the league last year with 12.9 so that sounds pretty close.

[WhiskyTango]

Thanks. And that's on default / 5 setting. Maybe I turn it back on. Seems silly quibbling over this though when the game Ai is not signing the DiMaggio boys and is signing/releasing Johnny Mize. oh wells indeed.