A new low in cheap

[Brad K]

We have ample evidence that Pirate management is cheap. Now they've cut Rowdy Tellez 4 PAs short of him making a $200k bonus.

I may go to ST games with a shirt "Pay Tellez You B******s"

And if they follow this up with not signing McCutchen for 2025 I'm done with them.

[Le Grande Orange]

A tale of two teams in 2023:

Pittsburgh spent a total of $72,518,237 on players over the course of the season and won 76 games. That's $954,187 per win. The New York Mets spent a total of $319,533,995 on players over the season and won 75 games. That's $4,260,453 per win.

Final team payroll figures for the 2024 season won't be available for some months yet, but if we use the opening day payrolls as a stand-in, we get the following (through games of Sept. 26th):

Pittsburgh -- $85,466,500 -- 74 wins -- $1,154,953 per win.
New York Mets -- $305,842,016 -- 87 wins -- $3,515,425 per win.
Chicago White Sox -- $141,755,550 -- 39 wins -- $3,634,758 per win.

You may not like it, but Pittsburgh is being quite efficient in its player spending in terms of the performance attained.

[OmahaBaseball]

I hate to see this, but can understand the Pirates cutting ties with a player that has really struggled in late August / September (last 28 days slashline of .111/.291/.319 in 55 PA). Allows the team to bring up player from the minors to see if there is something for the future.

Waiting until 4 PA's short of making bonus though is such a lousy move though; they knew they were going to move on just make that change much earlier. Recent Effectively Wild podcast episode talked about this.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

A tale of two teams in 2023:

Pittsburgh spent a total of $72,518,237 on players over the course of the season and won 76 games. That's $954,187 per win. The New York Mets spent a total of $319,533,995 on players over the season and won 75 games. That's $4,260,453 per win.

Final team payroll figures for the 2024 season won't be available for some months yet, but if we use the opening day payrolls as a stand-in, we get the following (through games of Sept. 26th):

Pittsburgh -- $85,466,500 -- 74 wins -- $1,154,953 per win.
New York Mets -- $305,842,016 -- 87 wins -- $3,515,425 per win.
Chicago White Sox -- $141,755,550 -- 39 wins -- $3,634,758 per win.

You may not like it, but Pittsburgh is being quite efficient in its player spending in terms of the performance attained.

Since they're so efficient they should spend another $25m and win the division.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by OmahaBaseball

I hate to see this, but can understand the Pirates cutting ties with a player that has really struggled in late August / September (last 28 days slashline of .111/.291/.319 in 55 PA). Allows the team to bring up player from the minors to see if there is something for the future.

Waiting until 4 PA's short of making bonus though is such a lousy move though; they knew they were going to move on just make that change much earlier. Recent Effectively Wild podcast episode talked about this.

He was terrible early in the season too. Why didn't they cut him then?

Agents will notice this stuff and the Bucs won't be able to sign players to contracts with bonuses. The Agents will want the money up front.

[kq76]

Yeah, totally! And not only that, but they should give him the rest of the bonuses is in his contract. He was only 54 PA short of the next milestone, so let's give him another 200K. And he was obviously robbed of going from the ASG, so let's give him that bonus. And hell, if he only played the field more he would have gotten the gold glove for sure so let's give him that one. And it was also only a matter of PA until he would have earned the silver slugger so give him that. And hell, he would have obviously won MVP so let's give him that too. The only bonuses we can't give him are the postseason bonuses because everyone knows the Pirates weren't ever going to go to the postseason this year.

People are acting like he was entitled to these bonuses, he wasn't. Even Rowdy apparently feels like he didn't deserve it (someone on Foul Territory said that). If he was playing considerably better and the Pirates were close to making the postseason, then there'd be reason for complaining, but as it is this is like an underperforming employee going into the manager's office demanding a raise. If Rowdy can take it like a man, surely the rest of us should be able to as well.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by OmahaBaseball

Waiting until 4 PA's short of making bonus though is such a lousy move though

What if it was 14 or 24 PA short? How much better or worse is that?

[OmahaBaseball]

Originally Posted by Brad K

He was terrible early in the season too. Why didn't they cut him then?

Agents will notice this stuff and the Bucs won't be able to sign players to contracts with bonuses. The Agents will want the money up front.

He had a terrible April / May, but then got hot for a three (3) month stretch when the Bucs were playing well. That team success and his solid play kept him in the lineup. The fact that the team allowed a month to go by of rather poor results to cut him essentially one (1) game short of vesting may, as you have noted, have FA ramifications down the road.

As others have pointed out here, he is a professional athlete that is paid to produce. If he fails in that responsibility, then he has to live with the decisions his team makes. Contractually, it appears that the Bucs had the right to do what they did and made the decision to move on.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Brad K

Since they're so efficient they should spend another $25m and win the division.

Final 2023 team payrolls for the six division-winning clubs:

LAN -- NL West -- $241,318,147 -- 100 wins -- $2,413,181 per win -- lost DS
HOU -- AL West -- $212,152,828 -- 90 wins -- $2,357,254 per win -- lost LCS
ATL -- NL East -- $201,457,158 -- 104 wins -- $1,937,088 per win -- lost DS
MIN -- AL Central -- $166,950,772 -- 87 wins -- $1,918,974 per win -- lost DS
MIL -- NL Central -- $133,626,152 -- 92 wins -- $1,452,458 per win -- lost WC
BAL -- AL East -- $79,264,089 -- 101 wins -- $784,793 per win -- lost DS

Baltimore ranked 27th in MLB in total player spending in 2023, and was only $7 million ahead of 28th place Pittsburgh, yet it won 101 games and took its division.

The six wild card teams:

PHI -- $249,224,162 -- 90 wins -- $2,769,157 per win -- lost LCS
TEX -- $241,138,664 -- 90 wins -- $2,679,318 per win -- won WS
TOR -- $217,771,850 -- 89 wins -- $2,446,875 per win -- lost WC
ARI -- $128,891,972 -- 84 wins -- $1,534,428 per win -- lost WS
MIA -- $109,452,470 -- 84 wins -- $1,303,006 per win -- lost WC
TBA -- $83,828,478 -- 99 wins -- $846,752 per win -- lost WC

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by kq76

Yeah, totally! And not only that, but they should give him the rest of the bonuses is in his contract. He was only 54 PA short of the next milestone, so let's give him another 200K. And he was obviously robbed of going from the ASG, so let's give him that bonus. And hell, if he only played the field more he would have gotten the gold glove for sure so let's give him that one. And it was also only a matter of PA until he would have earned the silver slugger so give him that. And hell, he would have obviously won MVP so let's give him that too. The only bonuses we can't give him are the postseason bonuses because everyone knows the Pirates weren't ever going to go to the postseason this year.

People are acting like he was entitled to these bonuses, he wasn't. Even Rowdy apparently feels like he didn't deserve it (someone on Foul Territory said that). If he was playing considerably better and the Pirates were close to making the postseason, then there'd be reason for complaining, but as it is this is like an underperforming employee going into the manager's office demanding a raise. If Rowdy can take it like a man, surely the rest of us should be able to as well.

The only thing that matters is PAs. BA, HRs, the Pirates making the playoffs, etc, are just part of tirade of escalating preposterousness.

And how did he under perform? His production is roughly in the ballpark with his career averages.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Final 2023 team payrolls for the six division-winning clubs:

LAN -- NL West -- $241,318,147 -- 100 wins -- $2,413,181 per win -- lost DS
HOU -- AL West -- $212,152,828 -- 90 wins -- $2,357,254 per win -- lost LCS
ATL -- NL East -- $201,457,158 -- 104 wins -- $1,937,088 per win -- lost DS
MIN -- AL Central -- $166,950,772 -- 87 wins -- $1,918,974 per win -- lost DS
MIL -- NL Central -- $133,626,152 -- 92 wins -- $1,452,458 per win -- lost WC
BAL -- AL East -- $79,264,089 -- 101 wins -- $784,793 per win -- lost DS

Baltimore ranked 27th in MLB in total player spending in 2023, and was only $7 million ahead of 28th place Pittsburgh, yet it won 101 games and took its division.

The six wild card teams:

PHI -- $249,224,162 -- 90 wins -- $2,769,157 per win -- lost LCS
TEX -- $241,138,664 -- 90 wins -- $2,679,318 per win -- won WS
TOR -- $217,771,850 -- 89 wins -- $2,446,875 per win -- lost WC
ARI -- $128,891,972 -- 84 wins -- $1,534,428 per win -- lost WS
MIA -- $109,452,470 -- 84 wins -- $1,303,006 per win -- lost WC
TBA -- $83,828,478 -- 99 wins -- $846,752 per win -- lost WC

Your point is... they should be able to win their division spending only another $7m instead of the $25 million I suggested?

[kq76]

Originally Posted by Brad K

The only thing that matters is PAs. BA, HRs, the Pirates making the playoffs, etc, are just part of tirade of escalating preposterousness.

Exactly. Just like it's preposterous to give a player ABs just so he can get a bonus when those ABs could be put to better use. You want to pretend to be a manager whom players would like? That's great, good for you, but this was a business decision. Again, if he was playing well and the Pirates were in contention I'd call foul on this too, but that's just not what the circumstances are. I'm sure he realizes this probably wouldn't have happened if he was playing better and we should too.

Originally Posted by Brad K

And how did he under perform? His production is roughly in the ballpark with his career averages.

Why pay 3.2M for a -0.3 WAR player when you can theoretically pay the league minimum for a 0 WAR player? And his career average is 0.4 WAR. I get it, they were hoping for a breakthrough, or at least a bounceback, year from him. He's still under 30 so it could have happened, but it didn't. You might even pay him for his clubhouse presence alone. But if you're not contending, I don't see much point in keeping him around when he'd be taking up at bats from prospects.

I get it, it sucks, he's a great guy, but play better.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Brad K

Your point is... they should be able to win their division spending only another $7m instead of the $25 million I suggested?

If Baltimore can do it, so could Pittsburgh. The Orioles weren't a one off, either. In 2022 Cleveland also ranked 27th in MLB in total player spending, and was only $8 million ahead of 28th place Pittsburgh, yet it won 92 games and took its division.

That the Pirates are already exhibiting good payroll efficiency means winning its division may not take all that much more in spending.