Training Facility is broken

[Brad K]

We have a situation where people are frustrated because they believe a new feature isn't working correctly. So turn it off. Or play last year's version of OOTP. Would people continue going to a restaurant where they don't like the food?

[WestCoastGuy]

Originally Posted by Brad K

We have a situation where people are frustrated because they believe a new feature isn't working correctly. So turn it off. Or play last year's version of OOTP. Would people continue going to a restaurant where they don't like the food?

If they thought it would get fixed, yes.

If there's no hope of that (or it's simply a difference in taste), no.

[majesty95]

Originally Posted by WestCoastGuy

If they thought it would get fixed, yes.

If there's no hope of that (or it's simply a difference in taste), no.

A lot of people just want to blindly defend something vs acknowledging there is a problem which brings no resolve. The game overall is great, but the more complicated it becomes the more issues it presents and that becomes frustrating. The bigger concern should be indifference to the product and moving on not people that are passionate and want it to work as intended.

[Syd Thrift]

No, it's more that if you want devs to fix something you do need to provide evidence that it's broken first. "Source: trust me bro" isn't evidence, I'm sorry. Ideally we'd need to take it to a state where we can replicate the issue but given the random nature of the development lab that is bound to not be easy, so the actual emails + a screenshot of your settings, etc. would be the ideal way to go if you're here to try and get a potential issue fixed as opposed to just ranting.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by majesty95

The game overall is great, but the more complicated it becomes the more issues it presents and that becomes frustrating.

Ah yes, longing for a simpler time. A few days ago an OOTP 11 DVD I thought was lost slid out from a slack of papers in my desk drawer. I'm tempted to put it into the drive on my XP computer and compare to the current more complicated and apparently more broken game we now have.

[twins_34]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

No, it's more that if you want devs to fix something you do need to provide evidence that it's broken first. "Source: trust me bro" isn't evidence, I'm sorry. Ideally we'd need to take it to a state where we can replicate the issue but given the random nature of the development lab that is bound to not be easy, so the actual emails + a screenshot of your settings, etc. would be the ideal way to go if you're here to try and get a potential issue fixed as opposed to just ranting.

I told him this same thing days ago and all I got was that the issue was me and the dev lab because I am hiding behind things. Heck even Matt told him the same thing to post what he is seeing and he went off on a book. I am feeling he just wants to blame something ain't working or is broken because he don't understand it. I have been playing historical, I of course okay with scouts off and I have never had these issues he is.

[twins_34]

Originally Posted by majesty95

A lot of people just want to blindly defend something vs acknowledging there is a problem which brings no resolve. The game overall is great, but the more complicated it becomes the more issues it presents and that becomes frustrating. The bigger concern should be indifference to the product and moving on not people that are passionate and want it to work as intended.

No one is BLINDLY protecting nothing. Some of us have been working with this for months and actually getting bugs in the feature fixed. We even put it out there to have emails created so that you could see exactly what happens to your player when they complete the program!

Matt has told you, I have told you, and now Sid has told you, if you want things fixed, if you think they are broken, you need to post screenshots of your game setting, of the completion emails, the development page of your player that shows all the info that could prove that there is an issue with the dev lab. I however have been working on the dev lab for months. I have used it for over 6 months. Spam run all the programs to find out what each do. Helped find loopholes and bugs and got them fixed. But you gaslight me telling me that I am blindly supporting it when that is not the issue! I would say beside Will Beh and devs that can look at the code, that I might be someone that knows the Dev Lab program the best. I have used it in online leagues, historical leagues, 2024 leagues, and custom leagues. I have not once seen what you are claiming. I have months of data that validate my claims and tons and tons of posts to the devs. You have done nothing but say "Because it's what I see bro" Well show us and the devs what you see. Stop gaslighting us to make us believe we are the ones who are wrong and prove that we are the ones who are wrong by posting screenshots of all your game settings, dev lab emails, OH and also make sure you are not in DND under manager because that takes all your control of your team away and will fill your dev lab slots for you.

[darkcloud4579]

Dev lab is the most ambitious feature implemented in the game in a long time. One of my lasting critiques of the game was not being able to help players evolve or grow over time, the implementation of the feature will surely need refinment but we did a lot of testing, the tweaks have been consistent and I think folks just want the game to work in a predictable way without account for their style of play isn't the only way to play.

[darkcloud4579]

Also, there's a checkbox to turn it off. Folks who don't like it ought to use that, the same way i don't ever play Perfect Team, or OOTP with Challenge Mode, Coaches or Scouts

[OutS|der]

As someone with 20 years experience, I know if I identify a problem it's on me to provide the data to prove that it's a problem.

Unless your title is Developer, your word isn't good enough. Data and only overwhelming data is proof. If you don't have that then you have nothing.

[twins_34]

Originally Posted by OutS|der

As someone with 20 years experience, I know if I identify a problem it's on me to provide the data to prove that it's a problem.

Unless your title is Developer, your word isn't good enough. Data and only overwhelming data is proof. If you don't have that then you have nothing.

This, all of this!

I can just guess by what I know about the Dev Lab and everything I have learned about development this year on what the issues are with his players. First off, that low control causes havoc. They have zero positive personality traits. Even if they did get a successful or outstanding result in the dev lab, they also went through 5 to 6 months worth of natural development and possible TCR hits. The Dev Lab is static. If it says that their Control went up by < 5 or by 5, then THAT is all the dev lab did. The Dev lab does not touch anything else on the player.

Now, if you were doing control and control went down, then the Dev lab helped prevent it from going down further. But if your scout gives you a report that
- Control has dropped from 40 to 35 This is not because of the dev lab. That is natural development. If you run the Dev Lab and you get a poor result and in the Dev Lab email it says that your control has dropped by <-5 or -5, then YES that was the Dev Lab.

If the OP can prove that his drop in control on pitchers who both have horrid control, no positive personality traits, all that affect natural development engine, came from running positive programs, then he found a bug that every beta tester missed in over 6 months and I would congratulate him. But he has not posted the completion emails, has not posted the players development tab...

So like you said Outs|der, if he can't present us with any hard evidence and no one else is complaining about this, then all we can say is, it is normal development that has nothing to do with the Dev lab and like I stated, besides Matt and Will Beh, I am probably the next person, NOT a dev, that knows a ton about the Dev lab. Do I know everything? Of course not. I do still have to speculate on somethings. But from all the data I have from all the sims I have run the past 6 months trying to figure out every single program of the dev lab, I can 100% say, I have never seen what the OP is claiming and I can't even reproduce it. I can however see normal development regress players or boost players and if he would only show the development profile of these players, that would probably answer ALL the questions and doubts.

So great post. Hopefully he takes it to heart and starts to show us his development tabs and history pages of these players effected.

[jcard]

Originally Posted by twins_34

This, all of this!

I can just guess by what I know about the Dev Lab and everything I have learned about development this year on what the issues are with his players. First off, that low control causes havoc. They have zero positive personality traits. Even if they did get a successful or outstanding result in the dev lab, they also went through 5 to 6 months worth of natural development and possible TCR hits. The Dev Lab is static. If it says that their Control went up by < 5 or by 5, then THAT is all the dev lab did. The Dev lab does not touch anything else on the player.

Now, if you were doing control and control went down, then the Dev lab helped prevent it from going down further. But if your scout gives you a report that
- Control has dropped from 40 to 35 This is not because of the dev lab. That is natural development. If you run the Dev Lab and you get a poor result and in the Dev Lab email it says that your control has dropped by <-5 or -5, then YES that was the Dev Lab.

If the OP can prove that his drop in control on pitchers who both have horrid control, no positive personality traits, all that affect natural development engine, came from running positive programs, then he found a bug that every beta tester missed in over 6 months and I would congratulate him. But he has not posted the completion emails, has not posted the players development tab...

So like you said Outs|der, if he can't present us with any hard evidence and no one else is complaining about this, then all we can say is, it is normal development that has nothing to do with the Dev lab and like I stated, besides Matt and Will Beh, I am probably the next person, NOT a dev, that knows a ton about the Dev lab. Do I know everything? Of course not. I do still have to speculate on somethings. But from all the data I have from all the sims I have run the past 6 months trying to figure out every single program of the dev lab, I can 100% say, I have never seen what the OP is claiming and I can't even reproduce it. I can however see normal development regress players or boost players and if he would only show the development profile of these players, that would probably answer ALL the questions and doubts.

So great post. Hopefully he takes it to heart and starts to show us his development tabs and history pages of these players effected.

1) Since it seems that the Development Lab is not automatically locked as disabled (unlike, for example TCR) when the normal Development Engine is disabled, then (assuming I am comprehending your explanation) the above means that cases of opposite sign Lab and Net rating changes such as the OP refers should not be possible when the Dev Eng is disabled, correct?

2) Are Lab effects applied to displayed ratings in real time or only after the first subsequent scouting report? Does completing the Lab automatically trigger a new scouting report to also be performed? The implications of these questions on the possibility for what the OP observed are clear.

[twins_34]

Originally Posted by jcard

1) Since it seems that the Development Lab is not automatically locked as disabled (unlike, for example TCR) when the normal Development Engine is disabled, then (assuming I am comprehending your explanation) the above means that cases of opposite sign Lab and Net rating changes such as the OP refers should not be possible when the Dev Eng is disabled, correct?

Yes and no as the Dev Lab does have the poor outcome but yeah, the OP would see zero development from any outside sources except the dev lab, I believe. I have never tried this but I would think that since the dev lab is like me editing the player, it should still take.

Originally Posted by jcard

2) Are Lab effects applied to displayed ratings in real time or only after the first subsequent scouting report? Does completing the Lab automatically trigger a new scouting report to also be performed? The implications of these questions on the possibility for what the OP observed are clear.

Yes, it looks like there is a complete forced update on the day the Dev lab ends and it does not matter what the outcome is, it will force a scout update.

Some of my guys were not scouted since Aug of the season before and of course ALL of that data is ONLY from development. Even though I got a no improvement result, it still gave a scouting report. So maybe this is what people are seeing?

I changed the ratings of my pitchers control to 350-350-400 and the guys that had no improvement, I got a scouting report from Spet to Feb and that is all changes the game gave that player from me editing and just normal development.

So first guy, that has the strange extra boost on the 27th is one that had an outstanding result and raised up the control. The post from the 22nd was a random update showing my change to control.

Second one was just an update, the guy had an un-successful outcome and just had a 5 month forced scouting report that finally shows I dropped his control before I ran my Dev Lab.

What we need to see, from the OP, is exactly what I have posted here. I know what the drop is from, I can see that on the 27th on the pitcher that had a good program got an update. But the devs need to see this development info and OP just rather gaslight and keep claiming we don't know what we are talking about and that the Dev Lab is broken.

[jcard]

Originally Posted by twins_34

Yes and no as the Dev Lab does have the poor outcome but yeah, the OP would see zero development from any outside sources except the dev lab, I believe. I have never tried this but I would think that since the dev lab is like me editing the player, it should still

To clarify, I did understand that the Lab could give poor outcomes. I was just saying that with Eng off and Lab on the displayed rating change should be of the same sign / direction as the Lab result outcome.

[jcard]

Originally Posted by jcard

To clarify, I did understand that the Lab could give poor outcomes. I was just saying that with Eng off and Lab on the displayed rating change should be of the same sign / direction as the Lab result outcome.

Though unlikely, there are actually at least two scenarios where the Lab result could be offset or more even with the Dev Engine disabled:

1) There was a significant shift in the league context for the relevant attribute since the previous scouting update for that player, changing his league-relative rating for that attribute.

2) Scouting is on and the scouting update generated at the conclusion of the Lab instruction gives a more accurate account of the player that is opposite in direction and greater in magnitude than the Lab impact.

[twins_34]

Originally Posted by jcard

To clarify, I did understand that the Lab could give poor outcomes. I was just saying that with Eng off and Lab on the displayed rating change should be of the same sign / direction as the Lab result outcome.

Yeah it should be 100%. It should only say Control went up. There would be zero other info since there is no development besides the Dev Lab.