Bring Back Manual - Page 6

stevebydac · 07-23-2024, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by md40022

A concrete solution to come up with a manual? Okay, here's a real simple and practical one....

The employees of the company that makes the game could create a manual. Just like every other company does for every product that they create.

If you want a more complicated and silly solution, I suppose there is this one....

The users of the game, who have already invested several hundred dollars into X amount of versions of the game since the games initial creation can brain storm on a message forum about how not only are they the primary resource for support on a game that they do not profit from but now how it is also their responsibility to also come up with a concrete way to create a manual. But again, that is a silly solution because why in the world would that be something that would fall on the user's plate.

The solution is simple. The creators of the game make a manual. It's their job. Literally, it is their job.

Bingo.

I used to be an avid OOTP player, over many iterations. But I think I've bought 3 or 4 versions in recent years and literally played a TOTAL of 20 or so hours on them. 1 or 2 I NEVER EVEN PLAYED because life got in the way. I basically made donations every year!

So now I've just bought 25 and have told myself that I will commit a few hours every single week to what used to be my favorite game. I want to fall in love with OOTP again. Last night, 1 am, I was confused about something. Ok, no problem, I'll look in the manual....ummm, there is no manual. Ok, I'll look at 24's manual. Ummm...the new feature isn't explained in it. Scratched my head for another 15 minutes, then shut my laptop & went to bed. Frustrated.

"Well you could have searched the forum." "Well you could have asked people on the forum." It was 1 am, I was tired, I went looking to the one place that SHOULD have quickly gotten me an answer. And it didn't exist.

If that's my experience -- someone who's got a decent history with "old" OOTP -- what's it like for a complete newbie who's pumped about playing this game, & runs into the same issue? The developers are frustrating the very people that could sustain this game in the years ahead.

Newbies need an updated manual. Old returning fans like me need one. It's important.

jcard · 07-23-2024, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevebydac

Bingo.

I used to be an avid OOTP player, over many iterations. But I think I've bought 3 or 4 versions in recent years and literally played a TOTAL of 20 or so hours on them. 1 or 2 I NEVER EVEN PLAYED because life got in the way. I basically made donations every year!

So now I've just bought 25 and have told myself that I will commit a few hours every single week to what used to be my favorite game. I want to fall in love with OOTP again. Last night, 1 am, I was confused about something. Ok, no problem, I'll look in the manual....ummm, there is no manual. Ok, I'll look at 24's manual. Ummm...the new feature isn't explained in it. Scratched my head for another 15 minutes, then shut my laptop & went to bed. Frustrated.

"Well you could have searched the forum." "Well you could have asked people on the forum." It was 1 am, I was tired, I went looking to the one place that SHOULD have quickly gotten me an answer. And it didn't exist.

If that's my experience -- someone who's got a decent history with "old" OOTP -- what's it like for a complete newbie who's pumped about playing this game, & runs into the same issue? The developers are frustrating the very people that could sustain this game in the years ahead.

Newbies need an updated manual. Old returning fans like me need one. It's important.

Thank you (and also md40022)—sometimes I feel like I must be losing my mind when reading new posts or replies to what I consider to be pretty obvious and uncontroversial points that I have made. I’m not looking to foster internecine conflict; just is somehow reassuring to feel that I am not alone in my clear prima facie perspective on some matters.

Pelican · 07-23-2024, 10:35 PM

I don't disagree with the need for a manual. (I'm agnostic on whether it could be "crowdsourced" or should be tasked to the developers. Remember, if developers are working on a manual, they aren't addressing bugs or questions or building in cool new features....). But I have doubts that even a new and improved manual will be capable of answering all questions.

My experience as a newbie was that I fairly quickly got beyond what the manual could provide in terms of answers. (Okay, that could be a criticism off the manual, as it was for OOTP21. But even now, I'm not sure how I would turn my issues into manual narrative. Maybe FAQ?). What I would humbly suggest to Stevebydac is a support ticket with the specific issue or question or problem. Not instant, but in short order that worked for me, in learning the game and dealing with problems.

The online support may not have been in real time, but it was responsive, and much more helpful for me than reading and rereading a manual. So, my personal inclination would be to devote resources to customer support. The game now basically sets itself up, guides the newbie through the process. Problems are likely to require the intervention of a human being.

As an example of what I mean, I am typing this on my new MacBook Air. I like it. It did not come with a manual, or any "hard copy" documentation. I just opened it up and turned it on. Like OOTP, there were tutorials. And like OOTP, there was support; although in real time. And of course the "Genius Bar" in the Apple Store. My point is only that if a machine this complicated does not rely on a product manual, I'm not sure gaming software should put all its eggs in that basket. Something like a chat box with developers would be awesome, if demanding on their time. The next-best thing would be the typical responses within a day.

Baby Ruth · 07-25-2024, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pelican

As an example of what I mean, I am typing this on my new MacBook Air. I like it. It did not come with a manual, or any "hard copy" documentation.

I don't see this as a fair comparison. One is a multipurpose machine whereas the other is a piece of software designed for one purpose. You'd need to compare OOTP to something you purchased to use on your MacBook.

md40022 · 07-25-2024, 10:24 AM

^^^ and there is most likely a QR code that came with the laptop that would link you up with a manual and/or there is most likely something found through Apple's website that could provide you with A LOT of detail on that machine.

I'm sure that there is something they offer in terms of spec sheets, data sheets, getting started guides, etc. on Apples end.... even if it doesn't come right in the box.

Let's say this.... I'm willing to bet that Apple's best "manual" isn't just a wiki site created by a fan (in fact, can you imagine the outrage if that WERE the case).

"Here at Apple we do not provide any documentation on our products, but there is a Wiki page operated by Bob Smith. Bob is in no way affiliated with Apple. He is just some guy, but he's owned several Apple products over the years and he really likes them. He has the best support info you'll find for our products. If Bob can't help you then there's some guy on YouTube who makes some videos. Tim or Tom or Tony or something. I think it starts with a T. No, he doesn't work for us either. He actually sells used cars, but his YouTube channel talking about the MacBookAir is pretty helpful."

kq76 · 07-25-2024, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by md40022

there is a Wiki page operated by Bob Smith. Bob is in no way affiliated with Apple. He is just some guy

I'll have you know Bob Smith is not "just some guy". He's the lead singer of one of the greatest bands ever, The Cure. How dare you, good sir!

md40022 · 07-25-2024, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kq76

I'll have you know Bob Smith is not "just some guy". He's the lead singer of one of the greatest bands ever, The Cure. How dare you, good sir!

lmao you are correct. Would have caught myself had I said Robert. Didn't even realize it saying Bob though haha.

Syd Thrift · 07-26-2024, 01:26 PM

Robert Smith, the Minnesota Vikings running back?

OmahaBaseball · 07-26-2024, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kq76

I'll have you know Bob Smith is not "just some guy". He's the lead singer of one of the greatest bands ever, The Cure. How dare you, good sir!

“Show me, show me, show me how you do that trick…”

The genius of Robert James Smith!

biggerme · 07-27-2024, 12:08 AM

moved to correct thread
https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...1&postcount=63

md40022 · 07-27-2024, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Robert Smith, the Minnesota Vikings running back?

God... he used to shred my Bears

robc · 07-27-2024, 10:33 PM

There were a couple reasons I haven't played OOTP in ages, one of them being the lack of documentation of how things work. Granted, I'm not as big a fan of the game as many here so me stopping isn't some newsworthy moment. I do occasionally come and read the forums to see what's up.

I don't think all the nuts and bolts of the simulation should be exposed, but I do think the general rules of the engine should, for example:

1) What player characteristics make them good at the hit and run? I assume batters that don't strike out (avoid K), and a high contact rating. I also assume I want to be careful against high strikeout pitchers. I forget if batters are rated for likelihood of groundball vs flyball - but if they are I'd want one that tended to hit ground balls.

2) I know there have been conversations in the past about hot and cold streaks and whether they exist as things that are programmed to happen in the game. If I recall right, they are not. When the streaks occur it's just due to random chance, but the player should know if they are 'real' or not so they can play accordingly.

3) Related to #2, are injuries the only thing that can cause temporary rating increases / drops?

I used to have a ton of things that I wondered how they worked, but I can't recall them anymore.

I have discovered I enjoy occasionally playing computer games based on card and dice baseball games (Replay Baseball, Stratomatic, 4th Street, or just a card and dice game like Season Ticket). I really enjoy seeing when a player makes or muffs a play because of their range or error rating, or rolling on the ballpark table and seeing how a lefty hit one out because of the park, or seeing how rare the chance was for a pitcher to strikeout some batter, but he did it anyway.

Now there are features from OOTP I miss when playing some of these games. Not all of them support creating draft leagues, or other things. I personally wish OOTP would become a bit more open to how it worked, because I would find shining a bit more light on it more interesting. I know many people who play OOTP don't share that opinion, so maybe OOTP will never really be my go to baseball game again - but not every game is for every person. I am glad Markus has finally hit it big and is rewarded for all the hard work he's put into the game over the years.

Déjà Bru · 08-26-2024, 01:10 AM

Whether it's because I have been feeling the need to get off of this gravy train after all these years, or whether I am still mildly irked by reported "Cosmetic Issues & Typos" being ignored, or whether I am currently irked by the Hall of Fame / Legends Gallery switcheroo, I am going to unload here on this topic of the online manual.

Nowhere in this thread is there any official response. Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but there has been no announcement of the discontinuation of the online manual.

So despite a number of people asking for the manual to be updated, or at least for an explanation as to why it will not be, the developers have chosen to ignore the issue in hopes that it will go away. Well, I find that to be rather arrogant, to say the least. Too big for your britches, eh?

After more than 15 years of following the growth of this game, and more than 10,000 posts here about it (well, a few thousand of those were in the Talk Sports forum) I find myself repeating this catchphrase concerning OOTP: "Not another dime."

thenewchuckd · 08-26-2024, 02:31 PM

How about something like how the new development sliders work, how coaches work with it, etc. I spend a stupid amount of time setting up coaches and this type of thing (thinking about mechanics, development, teach whatever) but on the training screen it only shows relationships, coach experience and maybe one other thing that I don't think should matter.

So this implies to me that all the other coach stats don't matter... And even when there was a manual, I still wondered if for example I should only care about teach hitting for my hitting coach or if he should have other stuff.

This is not getting to the bare mechanics - it is just information to help me make a better decision!

Also, a lot of the complaints about player development may just be down to bad decisions by managers. Promoting players too fast, etc. Yet there is no way to know, because there is no manual and the game gives us no help in this respect.

So the developers get complaints, their game looks bad (really bad in my opinion). Then they gaslight and even say that they tested the stuff and it is fine... Well I don't know maybe it is fine if I know how to play the game. But I don't.

The forums are outdated and really hard to navigate. So don't tell me they're the place to look instead of a manual. Plus you'll get a variety of opinions from different people, especially if it is not well documented.

Don't tell me that it means they won't have time for bugs or other stuff. For all the money they're getting, a manual is the first thing that should be done.

jcard · 08-28-2024, 09:41 AM

These last three posts get to the fundamental reason I struggle to enjoy OOTP: basically, the inescapable ignorance in which users are asked to operate. It is pervasive enough that the experience feels less like actively and purposefully managing than passively choosing ill-defined inputs and generating various outputs, with a detachment between the two that proscribes any sense of causal mechanics. Just as knowing exact formulae can be said to be an exploitation of the exigencies of the binary computing universe, the shrouding of the nominal quantities used in those formulae is artificially obfuscating—in real life, we can recognize at least some traits with a positive or negative correlation to the likelihood of certain outcomes. At this point, I would like to see a positive official affirmation that (whether dimming or playing) that the engine processes each plate appearance as a discrete and independent event, as well as identification of which variables are factors (nominally, not quantitatively) in a process.

For myself and perhaps others, the overwhelming disenfranchising pursuant to such widespread ignorance precludes any feeling of discovery through experience. Instead, each session feels like a new yet familiar turn in the dark blindly flipping switches between options in an unknown language, with the circuitry activating nubs that generate heat but no light.

fredbeene · 08-28-2024, 10:04 PM

They purposely do not have manual to create 'traffic volume' of peope talking about the game. then there are the hours spent creating online bots for reddit and such.

Syd Thrift · 08-31-2024, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fredbeene

They purposely do not have manual to create 'traffic volume' of peope talking about the game. then there are the hours spent creating online bots for reddit and such.

lmao no the real reason is that ootp controls the shipment and sales of tin foil in the US and every time some conspiracy arises they profits go up up yp

07-23-2024, 10:35 PM	#103
Pelican Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2021 Location: Wilmington, Delaware Posts: 3,289	I don't disagree with the need for a manual. (I'm agnostic on whether it could be "crowdsourced" or should be tasked to the developers. Remember, if developers are working on a manual, they aren't addressing bugs or questions or building in cool new features....). But I have doubts that even a new and improved manual will be capable of answering all questions. My experience as a newbie was that I fairly quickly got beyond what the manual could provide in terms of answers. (Okay, that could be a criticism off the manual, as it was for OOTP21. But even now, I'm not sure how I would turn my issues into manual narrative. Maybe FAQ?). What I would humbly suggest to Stevebydac is a support ticket with the specific issue or question or problem. Not instant, but in short order that worked for me, in learning the game and dealing with problems. The online support may not have been in real time, but it was responsive, and much more helpful for me than reading and rereading a manual. So, my personal inclination would be to devote resources to customer support. The game now basically sets itself up, guides the newbie through the process. Problems are likely to require the intervention of a human being. As an example of what I mean, I am typing this on my new MacBook Air. I like it. It did not come with a manual, or any "hard copy" documentation. I just opened it up and turned it on. Like OOTP, there were tutorials. And like OOTP, there was support; although in real time. And of course the "Genius Bar" in the Apple Store. My point is only that if a machine this complicated does not rely on a product manual, I'm not sure gaming software should put all its eggs in that basket. Something like a chat box with developers would be awesome, if demanding on their time. The next-best thing would be the typical responses within a day. __________________ Pelican OOTP 2020-? ”Hard to believe, Harry.” Last edited by Pelican; 07-23-2024 at 10:37 PM.

07-25-2024, 10:24 AM	#105
md40022 All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 778 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	^^^ and there is most likely a QR code that came with the laptop that would link you up with a manual and/or there is most likely something found through Apple's website that could provide you with A LOT of detail on that machine. I'm sure that there is something they offer in terms of spec sheets, data sheets, getting started guides, etc. on Apples end.... even if it doesn't come right in the box. Let's say this.... I'm willing to bet that Apple's best "manual" isn't just a wiki site created by a fan (in fact, can you imagine the outrage if that WERE the case). "Here at Apple we do not provide any documentation on our products, but there is a Wiki page operated by Bob Smith. Bob is in no way affiliated with Apple. He is just some guy, but he's owned several Apple products over the years and he really likes them. He has the best support info you'll find for our products. If Bob can't help you then there's some guy on YouTube who makes some videos. Tim or Tom or Tony or something. I think it starts with a T. No, he doesn't work for us either. He actually sells used cars, but his YouTube channel talking about the MacBookAir is pretty helpful." Last edited by md40022; 07-25-2024 at 10:34 AM.

07-27-2024, 12:08 AM	#110
biggerme Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Estonia Posts: 251	update moved to correct thread https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...1&postcount=63 __________________ OOTP WIKI Last edited by biggerme; 07-27-2024 at 03:46 AM.

08-26-2024, 01:10 AM	#113
Déjà Bru Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Long Island Posts: 11,741	Whether it's because I have been feeling the need to get off of this gravy train after all these years, or whether I am still mildly irked by reported "Cosmetic Issues & Typos" being ignored, or whether I am currently irked by the Hall of Fame / Legends Gallery switcheroo, I am going to unload here on this topic of the online manual. Nowhere in this thread is there any official response. Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but there has been no announcement of the discontinuation of the online manual. So despite a number of people asking for the manual to be updated, or at least for an explanation as to why it will not be, the developers have chosen to ignore the issue in hopes that it will go away. Well, I find that to be rather arrogant, to say the least. Too big for your britches, eh? After more than 15 years of following the growth of this game, and more than 10,000 posts here about it (well, a few thousand of those were in the Talk Sports forum) I find myself repeating this catchphrase concerning OOTP: "Not another dime." __________________ - Bru

08-28-2024, 09:41 AM	#115
jcard All Star Reserve Join Date: Oct 2015 Posts: 616 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	These last three posts get to the fundamental reason I struggle to enjoy OOTP: basically, the inescapable ignorance in which users are asked to operate. It is pervasive enough that the experience feels less like actively and purposefully managing than passively choosing ill-defined inputs and generating various outputs, with a detachment between the two that proscribes any sense of causal mechanics. Just as knowing exact formulae can be said to be an exploitation of the exigencies of the binary computing universe, the shrouding of the nominal quantities used in those formulae is artificially obfuscating—in real life, we can recognize at least some traits with a positive or negative correlation to the likelihood of certain outcomes. At this point, I would like to see a positive official affirmation that (whether dimming or playing) that the engine processes each plate appearance as a discrete and independent event, as well as identification of which variables are factors (nominally, not quantitatively) in a process. For myself and perhaps others, the overwhelming disenfranchising pursuant to such widespread ignorance precludes any feeling of discovery through experience. Instead, each session feels like a new yet familiar turn in the dark blindly flipping switches between options in an unknown language, with the circuitry activating nubs that generate heat but no light. Last edited by jcard; 08-28-2024 at 09:42 AM.

07-27-2024, 10:33 PM	#112
robc Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 2,095	There were a couple reasons I haven't played OOTP in ages, one of them being the lack of documentation of how things work. Granted, I'm not as big a fan of the game as many here so me stopping isn't some newsworthy moment. I do occasionally come and read the forums to see what's up. I don't think all the nuts and bolts of the simulation should be exposed, but I do think the general rules of the engine should, for example: 1) What player characteristics make them good at the hit and run? I assume batters that don't strike out (avoid K), and a high contact rating. I also assume I want to be careful against high strikeout pitchers. I forget if batters are rated for likelihood of groundball vs flyball - but if they are I'd want one that tended to hit ground balls. 2) I know there have been conversations in the past about hot and cold streaks and whether they exist as things that are programmed to happen in the game. If I recall right, they are not. When the streaks occur it's just due to random chance, but the player should know if they are 'real' or not so they can play accordingly. 3) Related to #2, are injuries the only thing that can cause temporary rating increases / drops? I used to have a ton of things that I wondered how they worked, but I can't recall them anymore. I have discovered I enjoy occasionally playing computer games based on card and dice baseball games (Replay Baseball, Stratomatic, 4th Street, or just a card and dice game like Season Ticket). I really enjoy seeing when a player makes or muffs a play because of their range or error rating, or rolling on the ballpark table and seeing how a lefty hit one out because of the park, or seeing how rare the chance was for a pitcher to strikeout some batter, but he did it anyway. Now there are features from OOTP I miss when playing some of these games. Not all of them support creating draft leagues, or other things. I personally wish OOTP would become a bit more open to how it worked, because I would find shining a bit more light on it more interesting. I know many people who play OOTP don't share that opinion, so maybe OOTP will never really be my go to baseball game again - but not every game is for every person. I am glad Markus has finally hit it big and is rewarded for all the hard work he's put into the game over the years.

08-26-2024, 02:31 PM	#114
thenewchuckd Minors (Single A) Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 73	How about something like how the new development sliders work, how coaches work with it, etc. I spend a stupid amount of time setting up coaches and this type of thing (thinking about mechanics, development, teach whatever) but on the training screen it only shows relationships, coach experience and maybe one other thing that I don't think should matter. So this implies to me that all the other coach stats don't matter... And even when there was a manual, I still wondered if for example I should only care about teach hitting for my hitting coach or if he should have other stuff. This is not getting to the bare mechanics - it is just information to help me make a better decision! Also, a lot of the complaints about player development may just be down to bad decisions by managers. Promoting players too fast, etc. Yet there is no way to know, because there is no manual and the game gives us no help in this respect. So the developers get complaints, their game looks bad (really bad in my opinion). Then they gaslight and even say that they tested the stuff and it is fine... Well I don't know maybe it is fine if I know how to play the game. But I don't. The forums are outdated and really hard to navigate. So don't tell me they're the place to look instead of a manual. Plus you'll get a variety of opinions from different people, especially if it is not well documented. Don't tell me that it means they won't have time for bugs or other stuff. For all the money they're getting, a manual is the first thing that should be done.

08-28-2024, 10:04 PM	#116
fredbeene All Star Starter Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,690 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	They purposely do not have manual to create 'traffic volume' of peope talking about the game. then there are the hours spent creating online bots for reddit and such.