Pitch clock?

[phenom]

Originally Posted by Brad K

Turn off what? There's no pitch clock to turn off and why would you want to turn off a realistic freak play in a simmed game that is hardly ever going to happen? No other freak plays can be disabled. I vote for no more switches for trivialities.

Might be helpful for you to note that I used the plural "rules."

[Hoiles]

I think it's possible there will be some air-headed players who will have some trouble adjusting to the rule and be more prone to delay of game balls/strikes, but it's too early to tell if that will be the case and if it's worth implementing in the game.

[Tax Man]

I would imagine infield hit and stolen base percentages will increase with the new 18 inch bases.

[daves]

How about a decision clock while playing? You have 10 seconds for a choice or it will be an AI quick bat?

Hope this version will finally add head to head?


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[Sweed]

Originally Posted by daves

How about a decision clock while playing? You have 10 seconds for a choice or it will be an AI quick bat?

Hope this version will finally add head to head?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My first thought is.. No.

Someone knocks at the door, text or phone call comes in, spill my drink, cat jumps on my lap, etc. and breaks my concentration. OOTP in real time just isn't a good fit, IMHO.

[daves]

Originally Posted by Sweed

My first thought is.. No.

Someone knocks at the door, text or phone call comes in, spill my drink, cat jumps on my lap, etc. and breaks my concentration. OOTP in real time just isn't a good fit, IMHO.

You need to control your cat and your drink?

There are other baseball sims with a decision clock for base running decisions.


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[Sweed]

Originally Posted by daves

You need to control your cat and your drink?

There are other baseball sims with a decision clock for base running decisions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The AI base coaches control my baserunning, other than steals. I'm in the dugout.

The cat normally sits by the chair and waits for an invite. It's the times he comes out of nowhere that are the issue.

[BIG17EASY]

Originally Posted by Sweed

The AI base coaches control my baserunning, other than steals. I'm in the dugout.

The cat normally sits by the chair and waits for an invite. It's the times he comes out of nowhere that are the issue.

Wait, you play OOTP with Andres Galarraga?

[84Cubs]

More so than pitch clock, I wonder how the shorter basepaths and the limits on how many times a pitcher can throw to 1st with a runner on base will impact pitcher performance and the overall run game.

Imagine if a pitcher reaches his limit of throwovers during an at bat, I think the limit is 2, will the baserunner become more aggressive. Will back picks by pitchers become more important in OOTP because teams may do this more during the game.

[kq76]

For the sake of realism at some point OOTP is going to have to incorporate era-specific rules and pbp. I understand why they wouldn't want to due to the hassle, but with how much the game is changing and with how much many of us know it being different, it's going to be jarring having or not having certain rules in when we know they should be. It's not like any of us were alive to remember how 1800s baseball was so we don't mind those rules not being in the game, but soon we will mind others not being in.

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by kq76

For the sake of realism at some point OOTP is going to have to incorporate era-specific rules and pbp. I understand why they wouldn't want to due to the hassle, but with how much the game is changing and with how much many of us know it being different, it's going to be jarring having or not having certain rules in when we know they should be. It's not like any of us were alive to remember how 1800s baseball was so I don't mind those rules not being in the game, but soon I will mind others not being in.

Fixed that for ya,

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by kq76

For the sake of realism at some point OOTP is going to have to incorporate era-specific rules and pbp. I understand why they wouldn't want to due to the hassle, but with how much the game is changing and with how much many of us know it being different, it's going to be jarring having or not having certain rules in when we know they should be. It's not like any of us were alive to remember how 1800s baseball was so we don't mind those rules not being in the game, but soon we will mind others not being in.

Don't they already do that minus the pbp? Unless there are some details missing from historical (I only play this as an occasional side game for nostalgia and Silvam's stadiums and unis), I am unaware of?

That leaves adding the new rules as they come in, which is what has been done, along with toggles. Yes, it means a lot of toggles, because players want the flexibility to add/remove them from whatever game they want. Maybe I'm missing your meaning on era specific rules?

For pbp, I guess, they could make it so users could save as many different pbp files as they wanted and then select the proper one for the era they are playing in. I think, going forward this would be possible without a lot of work? IE create pbp save slots and then make the few additions to cover new rules as we move forward? While retroactive pbp edits, additions, fixes would be left to modders? I'm thinking retroactive would be a much bigger time sink and question the cost/benefit for the number of users that, would use it?

Certainly a topic worth discussion, and yes I may have totally missed your point with my thoughts and assumptions?

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by kq76

For the sake of realism at some point OOTP is going to have to incorporate era-specific rules and pbp. I understand why they wouldn't want to due to the hassle, but with how much the game is changing and with how much many of us know it being different, it's going to be jarring having or not having certain rules in when we know they should be. It's not like any of us were alive to remember how 1800s baseball was so we don't mind those rules not being in the game, but soon we will mind others not being in.

You can still kind of make 1800s baseball work, you just kind of have to… ignore a lot of things. Balls and strikes did work their way down to what we have today fairly quickly and that at least is reflected in the very low walk and K totals. Likewise, the foul strike rule, which wasn’t a thing until IIRC 1901 in the AL and 1903 in the NL is reflected in lower K rates. If you don’t play out and watch the games you won’t even notice this, really.

I think the worst thing to run into in terms of playing historical or fictional leagues from that era isn’t really in the rules so much as it is in the way pitchers were used. There’s just no mechanic in the game for “blow out a guy’s arm so he throws like 400 innings but he’s completely done by the time he’s 25”. Guys get hurt or not hurt and if anything the super high stamina means pitchers don’t necessarily pitch fatigued a lot. I will say that if you use as-played schedules, you can actually recreate those tiny rotations early in baseball history; in the early days of the National League (and the NA for that matter), these were often semi-pro teams and they’d play most games on the weekends. So that “1 man rotation” deal still actually gives your starter like 4 or 5 days rest most of the time. You’ll use your “change” pitcher when your team plays on both Saturday and Sunday, but even that’s not always going to happen as Philadelphia in particular had blue laws that said you couldn’t play on the Sabbath into the late 19th century.

Of course, the scheduler won’t make schedules like that and of course the scheduler has no idea what a blue law even is, so if you’re using fictional schedules early on the season is over in like two months instead of going from May 1 well into September as happened in real life.

[BusterKing]

Pitch clock will never be used in my game.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by BusterKing

Pitch clock will never be used in my game.

As others have said, I have no idea how you’d implement it or what effect it would have on the game. If there is an effect, I imagine they’ll add it to next year’s version. But, like, they’ve even attempted this before and umpires flat out refused to enforce it except when a manager or two complained, and even then, because these are baseball umpires we’re talking about, they were enforced against the complaining managers to spite them (or the owners; IIRC Charlie Finley added a pitch clock to the Oakland Coliseum in the early 70s and umpires only issued balls when an Athletics pitcher exceeded the time).

[Marinersfan51]

I would guess that rules like the shift ban and maybe the pickoff limit will come into the game as rules options like the 3 batter minimum did (though maybe not in the release version since we still don't know what the effects are).

Stuff like bigger bases can just be handled with modifier adjustments that will come into the 2023 historical modifiers. A significant amount of the historical rules are already in the game, but as Syd Thrift points out there is a significant amount of 19th century oddity that the game can't quite recreate, but most of the stuff from the 20th century on is handled pretty well.

I don't think the pitch clock will have much effect in terms of penalty balls and strikes as by the end of last season there was under 0.5 violations per game in the minors. There will likely be an effect on the league wide environment (maybe pitchers aren't throwing quite as hard and contact rates increase), but it will mostly be the kind of stuff that comes through in the historical modifiers more like how the juiced ball or changes in mound height are reflected then a toggled rule option.

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by Marinersfan51

I would guess that rules like the shift ban and maybe the pickoff limit will come into the game as rules options like the 3 batter minimum did (though maybe not in the release version since we still don't know what the effects are).

Stuff like bigger bases can just be handled with modifier adjustments that will come into the 2023 historical modifiers. A significant amount of the historical rules are already in the game, but as Syd Thrift points out there is a significant amount of 19th century oddity that the game can't quite recreate, but most of the stuff from the 20th century on is handled pretty well.

I don't think the pitch clock will have much effect in terms of penalty balls and strikes as by the end of last season there was under 0.5 violations per game in the minors. There will likely be an effect on the league wide environment (maybe pitchers aren't throwing quite as hard and contact rates increase), but it will mostly be the kind of stuff that comes through in the historical modifiers more like how the juiced ball or changes in mound height are reflected then a toggled rule option.

Shift ban is already in the game.

[kq76]

Originally Posted by Sweed

Don't they already do that minus the pbp? Unless there are some details missing from historical (I only play this as an occasional side game for nostalgia and Silvam's stadiums and unis), I am unaware of?
...

Okay, well, let's see:

Stats as a DH - the DH has been in since 1973, but can you filter stats as a DH? Nope. The game has all sorts of stupid splits, but can you see what a player hit as a DH? No. You can't even see how many games he played as a DH. You have to take his total and subtract his other games on the fielding stats table. I understand, it's complicated because players can change positions mid-game, but I want to see how players did as a DH compared to how they normally do. It's said that hitting as a DH is harder than when playing the field. I want to see if that holds in OOTP.

Saves - the save didn't come in until 1969 yet there they are, in an 1871 historical.

Offensive Interference, Defensive Obstruction, Reached Base on Error, Reached Base on Interference - When did all of these come into the game? Are they stats you can find in OOTP? These are all real stats that have been in baseball since I don't know when and I can't find them in the game yet I can find countless ethereal stats that the average fan probably hasn't even heard of. There are players who are noteworthy for holding the records in these stats (Elsbury holds the record for RBOI, Rose for RBOE), yet can you find out who does well at these in your league? No. Excluding Catcher Interference, are OI or DO even in the pbp?

Minimum Home Run Distance - Did you know that the minimum home run distance was set to 250ft in 1925? And that it was changed to 325 ft in 1958? Did you also know you can set it to 1 foot in OOTP? Yup, I just did that.

Walk-Off Home Run Counts - Before 1920 the batter didn't get credit for a walk-off home run if someone was on base. Is that in OOTP? Doubt it.

Sacrifice Fly - First introduced in 1908, eliminated in 1931, brought back in 1954. How does OOTP handle it? It's always on, even in 1871.

Infield Fly - The rule was introduced in 1895. How does OOTP handle it? Of course.

Sacrifice Bunts Don't Count Against You - First recognized in 1889, yet there they are, in an 1871 game. Before 1894 sac bunts were included in a batter's ABs.

Stolen Bases - Since 1886. Or at least that's what happened in MLB. OOTP? 1871.

chucksabr made a detailed post about this on the beta boards recently. I didn't even look at it to write this post. I only looked at my MLB rules note. And I didn't include everything (I stopped at 9, a good baseball #), just a smattering to hopefully get the point across. The game changed a lot in the early years, yet we treat the 1800s like the 2000s.

Now yeah, a lot of these types of things most people don't care about (and I don't either except for some), but some people who play historical do and I feel for them. Maybe some people want to play as if the save, sac bunt, sac fly, and stolen base have all been in place since the beginning of time, but some people don't apparently.

What I think would be ideal is a very simple xml file that includes the rule, the year, and whether you want it enabled or not in your game. That would also be so much simpler than trying to hunt down where the options are in the game. Instead, just open the file in a text editor, Ctrl+F the rule, change the date and/or binary, save, and you're done.

[Marinersfan51]

Originally Posted by kq76

Saves - the save didn't come in until 1969 yet there they are, in an 1871 historical.

We can track saves going back to that far because they can be determined retroactively. They weren't an officially tracked stat until 1969, but they were happening. No one was tracking WAR or WPA until recently, but we can calculate it retroactively. Saves weren't a rule change, it was just another thing that was recorded. For what it's worth, stolen bases were also allowed going back prior to 1886, they just weren't recorded (granted what was counted as a stolen bases didn't align with the modern approach until 1898, but the actual gameplay was the same dating back to the 1860s).

There are plenty of instances in early baseball where player's names or heights weren't recorded, that didn't mean they didn't have names or heights. Some of things you cite were actual rule changes, but others were just changes in officially tracked stats. The quit tracking game winning RBI in the 1980s, but that didn't stop them from happening. The game showing saves and SB is the same as it showing WAR more than 20 years ago (or whenever it technically became a MLB official statistic).

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by kq76

Okay, well, let's see:

Stats as a DH - the DH has been in since 1973, but can you filter stats as a DH? Nope. The game has all sorts of stupid splits, but can you see what a player hit as a DH? No. You can't even see how many games he played as a DH. You have to take his total and subtract his other games on the fielding stats table. I understand, it's complicated because players can change positions mid-game, but I want to see how players did as a DH compared to how they normally do. It's said that hitting as a DH is harder than when playing the field. I want to see if that holds in OOTP.

Saves - the save didn't come in until 1969 yet there they are, in an 1871 historical.

Offensive Interference, Defensive Obstruction, Reached Base on Error, Reached Base on Interference - When did all of these come into the game? Are they stats you can find in OOTP? These are all real stats that have been in baseball since I don't know when and I can't find them in the game yet I can find countless ethereal stats that the average fan probably hasn't even heard of. There are players who are noteworthy for holding the records in these stats (Elsbury holds the record for RBOI, Rose for RBOE), yet can you find out who does well at these in your league? No. Excluding Catcher Interference, are OI or DO even in the pbp?

Minimum Home Run Distance - Did you know that the minimum home run distance was set to 250ft in 1925? And that it was changed to 325 ft in 1958? Did you also know you can set it to 1 foot in OOTP? Yup, I just did that.

Walk-Off Home Run Counts - Before 1920 the batter didn't get credit for a walk-off home run if someone was on base. Is that in OOTP? Doubt it.

Sacrifice Fly - First introduced in 1908, eliminated in 1931, brought back in 1954. How does OOTP handle it? It's always on, even in 1871.

Infield Fly - The rule was introduced in 1895. How does OOTP handle it? Of course.

Sacrifice Bunts Don't Count Against You - First recognized in 1889, yet there they are, in an 1871 game. Before 1894 sac bunts were included in a batter's ABs.

Stolen Bases - Since 1886. Or at least that's what happened in MLB. OOTP? 1871.

chucksabr made a detailed post about this on the beta boards recently. I didn't even look at it to write this post. I only looked at my MLB rules note. And I didn't include everything (I stopped at 9, a good baseball #), just a smattering to hopefully get the point across. The game changed a lot in the early years, yet we treat the 1800s like the 2000s.

Now yeah, a lot of these types of things most people don't care about (and I don't either except for some), but some people who play historical do and I feel for them. Maybe some people want to play as if the save, sac bunt, sac fly, and stolen base have all been in place since the beginning of time, but some people don't apparently.

What I think would be ideal is a very simple xml file that includes the rule, the year, and whether you want it enabled or not in your game. That would also be so much simpler than trying to hunt down where the options are in the game. Instead, just open the file in a text editor, Ctrl+F the rule, change the date and/or binary, save, and you're done.

And that's why I asked.

Not having a DH sort, to me, is something I don't think about when it comes to rules. It's a position that can be enabled and disabled, and of course should have always had a sort. Some of the other stats would have to be added and then either have them in your views or not. I think that comes down to how Markus feels about the size of the database? Not being a coder I have no ideas how much space it takes to add 10 (pick whatever number you like) stats, most with splits, to the thousands of players in a 100 + year league. There is a lot already there in your shortened list that are very niche and the old question of return for time invested comes up. Having said that you won't see me argue against adding anything Markus decides to add.

Questions regarding the xml idea, as some users are not, and others simply may not, be comfortable with the idea of opening and editing files?

Is the xml universal?
Do I have to make sure the xml is "right" before creating a new game?
If I change a rule for 1900 is it now in effect for my upcoming 2042 season in another save?
Or does the xml being used become a part of an individual save file?

Rather than one default xml, could there be as many as we wanted and have a menu for xml files be added where one could select from a drop down? Have an "era rules" folder holding many xml files? Modders could make era xml files and users could choose their era without having to edit?

Keep in mind this is all "off the cuff" on my end, so I haven't given it a lot of thought. While the xml is a good idea I'd rather see Markus add a new tab\page in the settings are for "era rules". List them in one place and cut out having to search for them or an xml file. Nobody has to edit anything and it's easy as the page only applies to "that game". My guess is most users either never open this page or only give it a look. The anal (not an insult, I'm anal about many things), for lack of a better word, historical player would, I think, be fine with said page.

Anyway, thanks for the response, and keep in mind I'm only offering my off the cuff thoughts. I am not arguing against anything being included or added to the game.