Commence the debate! 2023 HoF BBWA ballot announced.

[Déjà Bru]

The good news? Bonds, Clemens, Schilling, and Sosa are all off the ballot, each having failed last year in his 10th try on the BBWA ballot.

No, the debate this time will be over Carlos Beltrán.

In 2017, Beltrán closed his career by winning the World Series with the Houston Astros — but he was later found to be instrumental in devising their notorious electronic sign-stealing scheme. The scandal cost Beltrán his job as the Mets’ manager before his first game in their dugout. Now, it complicates his candidacy for the Baseball Hall of Fame.

Maybe there are some other names on this list that you are eager to talk about. (I would have made it a poll, but it's limited to only 15 choices and there are 28 candidates. Last year, we split it into two polls but that didn't work out very well.)

The talk: Rolen has the best shot at election but, after five years, he may have peaked. Sheffield, Rodriguez, Kent, and Ramirez would need a substantial influx of support to contend this year. Of the newcomers, only Beltrán has a chance but that depends on the baseball writers' opinion of his role in the Astros cheating scandal.

Otherwise, "There’s a decent chance that nobody on the writers’ ballot will gain the required 75 percent; the induction class for July in Cooperstown, N.Y., would then consist only of candidates selected by the Contemporary Baseball Era committee, which meets next month at the winter meetings in San Diego."



More statistics, plus explanations of the column headings, here:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/a...hof_2023.shtml

[Déjà Bru]

Hey, a little respect for some of these players even though they aren't expected to be on the ballot next year!

Bronson Arroyo - "16 stellar seasons that included an All-Star selection, a Gold Glove and a World Series title."

Matt Cain - "he threw the only perfect game in [Giants] franchise history ... his stalwart effort in the 2010 postseason (21 1/3 innings, no earned runs) helped the Giants win their first title in San Francisco, and he never threw a pitch for another team."

R.A. Dickey - "The knuckleball is a sorcerer’s trick, a mystical misfit in an era of predictive data. Nobody knows where the pitch is going — though, sadly, all signs point to extinction. Last season, only position players moonlighting on the mound tried the knuckler, the pitch R.A. Dickey used to win the National League Cy Young Award for the Mets in 2012."

Jacoby Ellsbury - [definitely reaching here] "had only four or five good seasons, but his career stolen base total — 343 — would lead all active players today."

Andre Ethier - "a 12-year career as a dependable right fielder for the Dodgers."

J.J. Hardy - "won three Gold Gloves as the Orioles’ shortstop and was known as the best table tennis player in baseball."

John Lackey - "the first rookie to win a [2002 World Series] Game 7 since the Pirates’ Babe Adams in 1909 ... went on to help the Red Sox and the Cubs reach the top, joining Bullet Joe Bush, Jack Morris and Dave Stewart as the only pitchers on championship-winning rosters for three franchises."

Mike Napoli - "would have been MVP of the 2011 had the Cardinals not rallied to beat the Rangers ... the Rangers have never returned to the World Series, but Napoli went twice more, winning in 2013 with Boston and losing in 2016 with Cleveland."

Jhonny Peralta - "Before the Astros regularly bounced the Yankees from the playoffs, it was Jhonny Peralta’s job. He did it three times in a short span, with Cleveland in 2007 and Detroit in 2011 and 2012, batting .353 with 18 hits."

Francisco Rodriguez - "What do you remember most about Francisco Rodriguez: the brilliance on the mound or the violence off it? He had 437 saves, including a single-season record 62 for the Angels in 2008. He was also arrested on assault charges at Citi Field in August 2010 after punching his girlfriend’s father outside the family room near the Mets’ clubhouse."

Huston Street - "324 saves in Major League Baseball, all in three- or four-year stints for West Division teams: Oakland, Colorado, San Diego and the Angels."

Jered Weaver - "In his first nine seasons with the Angels, through 2014, only Justin Verlander and C.C. Sabathia earned more victories."

Jayson Werth - "When Werth signed a seven-year, $126 million contract with Washington in December 2010, it flummoxed the sport: Here was a solid player for the powerhouse Phillies being paid like a star to move to the struggling Nationals ... for most of his deal, the teams’ fortunes were indeed flipped."

You may chuckle at the inclusion of some of these guys but seriously, there is something to be said for just having appeared on a Baseball Hall of Fame ballot.

[Amazin69]

In order of my emotional intensity:

Jeff Kent should be in; it's a pity he'll be left to some committee.

Todd Helton should have been a lock; I'm annoyed it's taking this long.

No to A-Roid, obviously.

K-Rud probably deserves some votes thrown his way; he disappointed as a Met and he punched his in-laws. Neither is uncommon.

I'd like to see a late rally for Little Billy Wagner. If only so Rivera doesn't get sole custody of "Enter Sandman".

I'm okay with Rolen, and not just because of Endy Chavez.
I'm…okay with Rollins, despite 2007.

If Bill Mazeroski belongs in the Hall, then so does Omar Vizquel. (That said, Keith Hernandez deserves it more than both of them combined.)

[dsvitak]

Originally Posted by Amazin69

In order of my emotional intensity:

Jeff Kent should be in; it's a pity he'll be left to some committee.

Todd Helton should have been a lock; I'm annoyed it's taking this long.

No to A-Roid, obviously.

K-Rud probably deserves some votes thrown his way; he disappointed as a Met and he punched his in-laws. Neither is uncommon.

I'd like to see a late rally for Little Billy Wagner. If only so Rivera doesn't get sole custody of "Enter Sandman".

I'm okay with Rolen, and not just because of Endy Chavez.
I'm…okay with Rollins, despite 2007.

If Bill Mazeroski belongs in the Hall, then so does Omar Vizquel. (That said, Keith Hernandez deserves it more than both of them combined.)

I agree with everything you said..but would add Jim Edmonds is vastly more qualified than Hernandez. Prove me wrong.

[monkeyman576]

Scott Rolen and Manny Ramirez are deserving. Writers opinion on Ramirez probably won't change.

[LansdowneSt]

Time to bookmark @NotMrTibbs again. He has just begun setting up the 2023 tracker...

https://t.co/9cCloYHylS

As I may have mentioned, I'm kinda a big HOF fan... https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...d.php?t=341957

[Déjà Bru]

Alright, I will ask the question directly. Sheesh, I get no cooperation around here ().

Should Carlos Beltrán be in the Baseball Hall of Fame?

[dsvitak]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Alright, I will ask the question directly. Sheesh, I get no cooperation around here ().

Should Carlos Beltrán be in the Baseball Hall of Fame?

Maybe. He is an accumulator, but also was an all star 9 times, with 3 gold gloves.

4751 total bases is higher than any other player not in the HoF, except for the cheaters.

Oops..he led the charge in cheating for Houston. My bad.

[LansdowneSt]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Alright, I will ask the question directly. Sheesh, I get no cooperation around here ().

Should Carlos Beltrán be in the Baseball Hall of Fame?

Yes, but he won't get in first ballot. Not many have gotten to 70 bWAR and not made it (PED guys excluded). Search below is over 70 WAR and not in the Hall.

[pilight]

Beltran showed great leadership in taking all the blame for Houston's 2019 cheating scandal so that his teammates who still had careers would not be punished.

Either that or a DH who hit .150 in the playoffs, including a hitless world series, was actually the mastermind behind a sign stealing scheme.

[Amazin69]

Originally Posted by dsvitak

I agree with everything you said..but would add Jim Edmonds is vastly more qualified than Hernandez. Prove me wrong.

Hmmm, I wouldn't necessarily say that's an either/or debate, since the argument for Keith is that you shouldn't need to hit 393 Home Runs (as Edmonds did) to reach the Hall, and that of the "he's in because of his glove" candidates, Keith not only out-hits Mazeroski (and Little O), but he actually was the better glove man, leading all 1st basemen ever in certain defensive stats.

But, sure, let's do Keith v. Jim. Remember, Edmonds played until age 40, whereas Keith was finished at 36 (the Mets thought Keith was finished at 35, which is why that final year was in Cleveland), so Jim should have the edge in the counting stats.

However, Keith actually has over 200 more hits, 2182 v. 1949.

Edmonds leads in 2B, 437 to 426…but Keith smokes him on triples, 60 to 25. (Edmonds of course leads in dingers, 393 to 162)

Even though Edmonds was a "flychaser" and Keith played 1B, Keith was by far the better base-stealer, in totals and by percentage. (Keith 98/63; Edmonds 67/50)

Keith leads in BA (.296 v. .284) and OBA (.384 v .376; Keith not only drew more walks than Edmonds did, but he walked more than he struck out; Edmonds was 10/17 in his W/K ratio). Those extra 231 bombs give Jim the edge in SLG and OPS, but since Keith did his hitting in the 1970s and 1980s, whereas Jim prospered in the Days of Roids and Selig, if you normalize for OPS+, it's nearly a tie. (Edmonds 132, Keith 128).

Because they're carrying their candidacies with their gloves, they both fall short of the advanced hitting metrics for the Hall (Grey Ink, HoF standards/monitor, JAWS), but Keith comes closer to the positional norms.

Accolades?

Edmonds was a 4-Time All-Star…but Keith made 5 ASGs.
Edmonds won 8 Gold Gloves. Keith won 11.
Edmonds won a Silver Slugger (2004). That's nice. Keith won two. (1980, 1984)
Edmonds got MVP votes in 6 different seasons, Keith got votes in 8 seasons. Edmonds placed as high as 4th, in 2000. Keith also placed 4th (in 1986)…and he placed 2nd in 1984…and of course he won it in 1979.

Keith led the league in BA (1979), 2B (1979), OBP (1980), walks (1986), intentional walks (1982) and twice in runs (1979, 1980).

Edmonds led the league in…no batting categories, ever.

Edmonds won a World Series in 2006. ($#$@%#@!!!). But, of course, Keith did that, twice. And I don't think I'm going too far out an limb in saying that Keith was far more important to his team in both 1982 and 1986 than Edmonds was to the '06 Lucky Bastards, er, Cardinals.

Edmonds placed 9th in WAR among the 2006 Cards. Behind Albert, Rolen, Carpenter, Chris Duncan (!), Eckstein (!), Jeff Suppan, Waino (SWING THE DAMN BAT, Beltran!!! Ahem) and Scott Spiezio.

Keith was 4th on the 1982 Cards (behind Lonnie Smith [!!!], One Tough Dominican, and Ozzie) and led the 1986 Mets. Who, you'll recall, won 108 games in the regular season, rather than going 83-78, only posting the 5th-best record in the NL, and "winning" their joke of a division despite going 3-7 in their final 10 games. Not that I'm bitter or anything…

So, yeah, perhaps you're really impressed by that 231-HR gap. (Not that 393 career homers is anything huge, IMO.)

But "vastly more qualified"? Vastly not, I'd say. JMO.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

The good news? Bonds, Clemens, Schilling, and Sosa are all off the ballot, each having failed last year in his 10th try on the BBWA ballot.

These guys should be in, IMO. Although in the case of Bonds, and less so, Clemens, I am glad they aren't in simply because they are jerks... I'd put A-Rod in, too.

I don't know if Curt Schilling is HOF-worthy based upon his stats, but if his exclusion is based to any degree on the fact that his political leanings do not jibe with those of the majority of HOF voters, that is complete BS.

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Andre Ethier - "a 12-year career as a dependable right fielder for the Dodgers."

I've no delusions on his HOF worthiness, but he was a favorite of mine. Class act, solid player. Was bummed he retired when he did after successfully coming back from two major injuries to join the Dodgers for playoff runs (in 2016 & 2017)... had hoped he'd play another season.

Originally Posted by Amazin69

K-Rud probably deserves some votes thrown his way; he disappointed as a Met and he punched his in-laws. Neither is uncommon.

This ^^^ is pure gold

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Alright, I will ask the question directly. Sheesh, I get no cooperation around here ().

Should Carlos Beltrán be in the Baseball Hall of Fame?

No way. As far as the notable scandals go, ranked worst to least-worst, IMO:

1. Black Sox
2. BlackStros
3. Pete Rose
4. PED's

For HOF-worthiness, I draw the line at Pete Rose. Sorta right through him since I'm on the fence. His 24-year career as a player is unquestionably first-ballot HOF, and only slightly tarnished by some gambling as player-manager. IMO, there should be some mention in the Hall of his HOF-worthiness as a player, but he should not actually be a member. To me, it's kinda sorta not sure...

Originally Posted by pilight

Beltran showed great leadership in taking all the blame for Houston's 2019 cheating scandal so that his teammates who still had careers would not be punished.

If he did, he was the only one... Even if the BlackStros organization and players had been contrite (which they were decidedly not), IMO Manfred should've stripped the title, named the Dodgers and Yankees as co-champs, prohibited the BlackStros from selling or displaying any WS merch, and suspended all involved players for a year, give or take... Perhaps some of that is extreme, but not as bad as how far the other way Manfred went with his his combination of wrist-slap penalties and non-penalties.

BTW, I get the need to monetize & advertise, but baseball-reference.com has almost become unusable due to the number of ads. It's not so much the volume of ads, but the intermittent loading of them... Very annoying. Sometimes feels like I landed on click-bait site...

[kq76]

I want to say no one will make it in this year, but it's tough to gauge because 4 players were on their 10th ballots last year, plus Ortiz, all who were taking away votes from other players, like Rolen, who might have made it otherwise. I wonder if there's a certain %, like say 50%, where once a player hits that they're most likely going to make it eventually. I'll say Rolen, Helton, and Wagner make it.

There was a time when I thought Kent (this is his last chance) and Sheffield (this is his second last chance) would make it, but I doubt it now.

[damientheomen3]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Hey, a little respect for some of these players even though they aren't expected to be on the ballot next year!

Bronson Arroyo - "16 stellar seasons that included an All-Star selection, a Gold Glove and a World Series title."

Matt Cain - "he threw the only perfect game in [Giants] franchise history ... his stalwart effort in the 2010 postseason (21 1/3 innings, no earned runs) helped the Giants win their first title in San Francisco, and he never threw a pitch for another team."

R.A. Dickey - "The knuckleball is a sorcerer’s trick, a mystical misfit in an era of predictive data. Nobody knows where the pitch is going — though, sadly, all signs point to extinction. Last season, only position players moonlighting on the mound tried the knuckler, the pitch R.A. Dickey used to win the National League Cy Young Award for the Mets in 2012."

Jacoby Ellsbury - [definitely reaching here] "had only four or five good seasons, but his career stolen base total — 343 — would lead all active players today."

Andre Ethier - "a 12-year career as a dependable right fielder for the Dodgers."

J.J. Hardy - "won three Gold Gloves as the Orioles’ shortstop and was known as the best table tennis player in baseball."

John Lackey - "the first rookie to win a [2002 World Series] Game 7 since the Pirates’ Babe Adams in 1909 ... went on to help the Red Sox and the Cubs reach the top, joining Bullet Joe Bush, Jack Morris and Dave Stewart as the only pitchers on championship-winning rosters for three franchises."

Mike Napoli - "would have been MVP of the 2011 had the Cardinals not rallied to beat the Rangers ... the Rangers have never returned to the World Series, but Napoli went twice more, winning in 2013 with Boston and losing in 2016 with Cleveland."

Jhonny Peralta - "Before the Astros regularly bounced the Yankees from the playoffs, it was Jhonny Peralta’s job. He did it three times in a short span, with Cleveland in 2007 and Detroit in 2011 and 2012, batting .353 with 18 hits."

Francisco Rodriguez - "What do you remember most about Francisco Rodriguez: the brilliance on the mound or the violence off it? He had 437 saves, including a single-season record 62 for the Angels in 2008. He was also arrested on assault charges at Citi Field in August 2010 after punching his girlfriend’s father outside the family room near the Mets’ clubhouse."

Huston Street - "324 saves in Major League Baseball, all in three- or four-year stints for West Division teams: Oakland, Colorado, San Diego and the Angels."

Jered Weaver - "In his first nine seasons with the Angels, through 2014, only Justin Verlander and C.C. Sabathia earned more victories."

Jayson Werth - "When Werth signed a seven-year, $126 million contract with Washington in December 2010, it flummoxed the sport: Here was a solid player for the powerhouse Phillies being paid like a star to move to the struggling Nationals ... for most of his deal, the teams’ fortunes were indeed flipped."

You may chuckle at the inclusion of some of these guys but seriously, there is something to be said for just having appeared on a Baseball Hall of Fame ballot.

This reads as a nice who's who of guys considered good, solid ballplayers during the brief 3ish year period of my life where I actually followed baseball closely. Reading these names put a smile on my face.