Should We Be Worried About Perfect Team...

[KBLover]

Originally Posted by chargerrich

... becoming the MUT like feature that ruined a once proud Madden franchise mode?

I'll worry when the game starts smelling like Madden.

When OOTP starts losing features and reprinting them later as "new".

When OOTP becomes nothing more than a roster update...except for Perfect Team.

When OOTP starts producing other "modes" that don't resemble baseball at all in an effort to drive more microtransactions.

When the engine starts producing completely unrealistic baseball both in sim and when playing out games out of the box.

When there's multiple versions of OOTP that give you nothing more than more in-game currency for Perfect Team and other non-franchise modes.

When OOTP starts doing things like that, then I'll start comparing them to Madden and treat it like I did Madden, i.e. abandoned it and having bought one in a decade.

OOTP isn't there and I don't think it's heading there. So, at present time, I'm not worried and looking forward to OOTP24.

[PSUColonel]

I just think people are forgetting that Com2Us is now calling the shots. That’s all I’m saying on the subject any longer.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by kidd_05_u2

It is funny to me how many users there are with thousands of posts and more than a decade in the forum who are constantly worrying about the demise of OOTP and trying to find evidence about game development going wrong.

This year we had a big game engine rewrite and 3d improvements and yet OOTP23 is seen by some as evidence that development of the base game is weakening? I definitely don't share that view.

Also, PT is a very basic and featureless game mode. It is hard for me to believe that its development is taking massive resources away from the base game.

It started back with OOTP6 (2004, 18 yrs ago?). OOTP was moving to DIPS, took out "clutch", and was on the sabre metrics road that it still travels. This decision was, according to some on the forums, the wrong way to go and the end of OOTP!!! Too bad since Markus has such a good thing going and is now going to ruin it with this DIPS stuff.


Move to SI? end of the game

Forced out of SI? end of the game

Face-gen type feature? end of the game. must concentrate on the core game

MLB licensing? end of game.

3d? yep, end of the game. More eye candy just like face gen! What about baseball????

PT? end of game


Despite this yearly ritual, the sky still hasn't fallen.

Same thing, different year.

[silvam14]

Originally Posted by Sweed

It started back with OOTP6 (2004, 18 yrs ago?). OOTP was moving to DIPS, took out "clutch", and was on the sabre metrics road that it still travels. This decision was, according to some on the forums, the wrong way to go and the end of OOTP!!! Too bad since Markus has such a good thing going and is now going to ruin it with this DIPS stuff.


Move to SI? end of the game

Forced out of SI? end of the game

Face-gen type feature? end of the game. must concentrate on the core game

MLB licensing? end of game.

3d? yep, end of the game. More eye candy just like face gen! What about baseball????

PT? end of game


Despite this yearly ritual, the sky still hasn't fallen.

Same thing, different year.

Yup.

For me, I’m not “worried” about anything OOTP related. I’ve invested thousands of hours into this franchise like a lot of people here. I just don’t see the doom and gloom that others do.

I haven’t seen any real evidence that the core game is being ignored or will be ignored in favor of PT.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ashantewarrier]

Originally Posted by Sweed

It started back with OOTP6 (2004, 18 yrs ago?). OOTP was moving to DIPS, took out "clutch", and was on the sabre metrics road that it still travels. This decision was, according to some on the forums, the wrong way to go and the end of OOTP!!! Too bad since Markus has such a good thing going and is now going to ruin it with this DIPS stuff.


Move to SI? end of the game

Forced out of SI? end of the game

Face-gen type feature? end of the game. must concentrate on the core game

MLB licensing? end of game.

3d? yep, end of the game. More eye candy just like face gen! What about baseball????

PT? end of game


Despite this yearly ritual, the sky still hasn't fallen.

Same thing, different year.

Yep. I was around during those times too, and it was the same doom and gloom back then. Folks need to take a deep breath and relax. Markus, Lukas, and the dev team are dedicated to OOTP being the best sports sim bar none.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[kidd_05_u2]

Yeah, I'm sure it's possible that one day the top dev team retires or gets the game taken away from them and everything goes to crap. But there is no point in constantly fretting over doomsday scenarios when the game still ships annually and with as much work behind it as always.

[BarneyRubble]

I'd like to think OOTP has done a good job of balancing additional features and enhancing the core game. I'm not always happy about it, but I understand it.

I'd really like to manage games, but that part of the game is lacking. The lack of manager/GM interactions and no true pitch-by-pitch engine severely hampers that part of the game for me. Therefore I play as GM. In my opinion, it's the best 'mode' OOTP has to offer. Starting out as a low life manager is no fun either.

So when I hear about pants and 3D, I don't get excited, but I understand. OOTP is NOT going to make everyone happy. OOTP is a sandbox. Ten people will play ten different ways, have ten different gripes and have ten different experiences. You can take your league, MLB or fictional, in ANY direction you want. In fact, I start MLB, but it's fictional the second I start the game. Static global LTMs, 32 teams, revamped minor leagues, no DH, no inter-league, normalized strategic tenancies, custom schedule generator, no wild cards, etc... It's blast.

Would I like a game where it's impossible to get UP-TO-DATE scouting reports on players during the off season? You bet I would. But if OOTP caters to players like me, they'll loose other players (and visa versa). That forces them to make things optional. I don't envy the position they are in, even if some of it is self inflicted.

[Syd Thrift]

Pants is right up there with hobbit leagues and setting up teams based in Ghana on the "I don't care about this feature, therefore it doesn't exist" things that people have complained about over the years. Like, I get it. It's a relatively minor looking add. The actual add was that they're transitioning from basing the uniforms on FaceGen to basing them on the 3D model, and pants was a fairly vital and relatively simple aspect of that, but it is pants and that's easier to complain about I guess than an actual evolution of the game that may make some things a little harder for you.

TBH I didn't think 3D would be anywhere near a big deal but at least for me it's become a vital aspect of the game. It's basically a far, far more sophisticated version of Microleague or Earl Weaver now in terms of day to day gameplay. There have been some pretty big hiccups this year, although those, too, were due to OOTPD adding new features and performing some big-time technical debt, not them allowing the entire game to lie unchanged a la Madden.

Should we be worried about PT? I've got to be honest; this feels like a moral hazard right now. We're worrying about a potential degradation in quality with PT taking focus over the base game with very little evidence that this is actually happening (essentially the evidence seems to be that PT exists and the base game was buggy this year... even that's ignoring how PT was pushed back several weeks from the release of the base game, which certainly seems to imply that the studio as a whole was prioritizing the former over the latter).

Could it happen? Sure. Is it a thing to worry about? Honestly, I think no. If <version> isn't to your liking, you'll always be able to boot up <version - 1>. The thing with Madden in particular is that <version - 10> even is essentially the exactly same game as <version> and there's just plain zero evidence that OOTP is going on that route and tons of evidence to disprove the notion that it's already done so.

From a further-out level, OOTP will not continue forever. Eventually something will happen - Markus leaving, perhaps - that will make the game go into decline. Change happens. There's no point that I see about worrying about these scenarios. It's not climate change. We're not talking about a thing that we as consumers can do much of anything about other than finding or creating competition. If the devs stop listening and stop making changes, the decline will happen and no amount of worrying about it in advance will have any kind of effect.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by silvam14

Yup.

For me, I’m not “worried” about anything OOTP related. I’ve invested thousands of hours into this franchise like a lot of people here. I just don’t see the doom and gloom that others do.

I haven’t seen any real evidence that the core game is being ignored or will be ignored in favor of PT.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is true, I think…the issue also I think though, is the seeming lack of GROWTH

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Pants is right up there with hobbit leagues and setting up teams based in Ghana on the "I don't care about this feature, therefore it doesn't exist" things that people have complained about over the years. Like, I get it. It's a relatively minor looking add. The actual add was that they're transitioning from basing the uniforms on FaceGen to basing them on the 3D model, and pants was a fairly vital and relatively simple aspect of that, but it is pants and that's easier to complain about I guess than an actual evolution of the game that may make some things a little harder for you.

TBH I didn't think 3D would be anywhere near a big deal but at least for me it's become a vital aspect of the game. It's basically a far, far more sophisticated version of Microleague or Earl Weaver now in terms of day to day gameplay. There have been some pretty big hiccups this year, although those, too, were due to OOTPD adding new features and performing some big-time technical debt, not them allowing the entire game to lie unchanged a la Madden.

Should we be worried about PT? I've got to be honest; this feels like a moral hazard right now. We're worrying about a potential degradation in quality with PT taking focus over the base game with very little evidence that this is actually happening (essentially the evidence seems to be that PT exists and the base game was buggy this year... even that's ignoring how PT was pushed back several weeks from the release of the base game, which certainly seems to imply that the studio as a whole was prioritizing the former over the latter).

Could it happen? Sure. Is it a thing to worry about? Honestly, I think no. If <version> isn't to your liking, you'll always be able to boot up <version - 1>. The thing with Madden in particular is that <version - 10> even is essentially the exactly same game as <version> and there's just plain zero evidence that OOTP is going on that route and tons of evidence to disprove the notion that it's already done so.

From a further-out level, OOTP will not continue forever. Eventually something will happen - Markus leaving, perhaps - that will make the game go into decline. Change happens. There's no point that I see about worrying about these scenarios. It's not climate change. We're not talking about a thing that we as consumers can do much of anything about other than finding or creating competition. If the devs stop listening and stop making changes, the decline will happen and no amount of worrying about it in advance will have any kind of effect.

That’s hysterical…I’d be far more worried about Markus leaving than “climate change”

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

That’s hysterical…I’d be far more worried about Markus leaving than “climate change”

The point is that climate change is something you could potentially do a lot more about than Markus leaving, by which I mean if he leaves, no amount of complaining is going to make the game rebound. There may not be much you can do bout climate change at this point either but the point is, whatever you could do, you could do a lot more than you could about Markus leaving or the company that owns OOTP driving it into the ground.

There is more I could say but I will leave it at: I don’t want to know your politics.

[TuckerDuckson]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

I just think people are forgetting that Com2Us is now calling the shots. That’s all I’m saying on the subject any longer.

Com2uS and Gamevil, in conjunction, ruined my last two favorite baseball games I played in my teens.

Safe to say, if they have ANY influence in OOTP I will never buy an OOTP game again, and no one else should either. They also should (but won't because they are a SK company) for having a corner on the baseball market content creation market right now. I don't know if this is conjecture, but they are horrid and need to be nowhere near any, and I repeat, NOWHERE ANYWHERE near of ootp products at all. They will be the single handed fall of this game in 3-5 years if they have full control. If the OOTP dev team has already made that decision they've lost a customer in me. Sad that they sold out this way if they did, and really explains the down turn in quality. If Gamevil or Come2us have any presence it's that you should run away from them 100%.

They're a horrible company who has repeatedly disenfranchised their customers, beyond subpar communication and ramifications for their "updates". aka just roster resets, where they gave the OG creators of the game a bag and then automated the games since then. Call them out. Horrible companies both of them. Zero communication, just a MUT clone which I feel OOTP is turning into. So sad. If Come2us is really calling the shots it says a lot about OOTP23 and the main devs should refund the money and look for other publishers. It really would explain why 23's release was so jank compared to 22s.

Seriously, they have ruined every baseball game I've ever played outside of OOTP, and are a horribly managed company. Please, do not take their blood money. They do not care about baseball at all. Zero. It's so shameful. God even if this isn't true, just the thought makes me want to vomit. I couldn't believe Markus or Lukas would do that.

They should be public on their involvement, how much monetarily, emotionly, and physically each partner is worth so no one is guessing with his channel.

[jcard]

Originally Posted by TuckerDuckson

Com2uS and Gamevil, in conjunction, ruined my last two favorite baseball games I played in my teens.

Safe to say, if they have ANY influence in OOTP I will never buy an OOTP game again, and no one else should either. They also should (but won't because they are a SK company) for having a corner on the baseball market content creation market right now. I don't know if this is conjecture, but they are horrid and need to be nowhere near any, and I repeat, NOWHERE ANYWHERE near of ootp products at all. They will be the single handed fall of this game in 3-5 years if they have full control. If the OOTP dev team has already made that decision they've lost a customer in me. Sad that they sold out this way if they did, and really explains the down turn in quality. If Gamevil or Come2us have any presence it's that you should run away from them 100%.

They're a horrible company who has repeatedly disenfranchised their customers, beyond subpar communication and ramifications for their "updates". aka just roster resets, where they gave the OG creators of the game a bag and then automated the games since then. Call them out. Horrible companies both of them. Zero communication, just a MUT clone which I feel OOTP is turning into. So sad. If Come2us is really calling the shots it says a lot about OOTP23 and the main devs should refund the money and look for other publishers. It really would explain why 23's release was so jank compared to 22s.

Seriously, they have ruined every baseball game I've ever played outside of OOTP, and are a horribly managed company. Please, do not take their blood money. They do not care about baseball at all. Zero. It's so shameful. God even if this isn't true, just the thought makes me want to vomit. I couldn't believe Markus or Lukas would do that.

They should be public on their involvement, how much monetarily, emotionly, and physically each partner is worth so no one is guessing with his channel.

Regrettably, your comments will fall on deaf ears. The level of dissonance on this forum is staggering. People will resort to the most tortured logic to avoid applying the same profit-maximizing rational-actor model to OOTPD that they would to any other company. Go back and look at the utter nonsense posted in the run-up to the release to filter the situation; Occam has no authority here. Go back further and read the comments when the announcement of the sale was made. Skeptics and those recognizing the lack of candor coming from OOTPD were branded Chicken Littles. Well, to keep with the theme of avian analogues, those who continue to deny the prescience of the doubters simply have their heads stuck in the sand. We all appreciate that the game allows us to build our fictional universes. That does not mean we have to live in a fantasy world.

[AlpineSK]

Originally Posted by kidd_05_u2

It is funny to me how many users there are with thousands of posts and more than a decade in the forum who are constantly worrying about the demise of OOTP and trying to find evidence about game development going wrong.

This year we had a big game engine rewrite and 3d improvements and yet OOTP23 is seen by some as evidence that development of the base game is weakening? I definitely don't share that view.

Also, PT is a very basic and featureless game mode. It is hard for me to believe that its development is taking massive resources away from the base game.

As someone who has decades in this game at this point, I'd say over 10,000 player hours, and thousands of posts if you combine here and BaseballSimCentral I'm not so much worried about the demise of OOTP than I am the plateau of the game.

They've told us about a lot of under the hood improvements, and I will admit that the graphics are certainly improved but I see the graphics as a way of making some players just say "OOOO Pretty!" to distract them from the true lack of improvement in this game.

The OOTP23 trade and Free Agent AI is the worst that I've seen in the game in all of my years playing. I was reading through my 2013 Red Sox playthrough that is in my signature, looking at old trades, free agents, drafting and what not, and I havent seen nearly that experience in 23. And the historical experience? Its even worse.

Personalities and storylines seem unimportant. The Morale system is extremely stale. It all feels half finished, like they added the feature, started working on it, and then move on to add another feature before that one was completed.

As for PT, I get it: it doesn't take away from the core game in theory. The core game gets the same attention that it did before. But that's the problem: if the staff count goes from let's say, 7 to 10 people, and those 3 people that are being added are solely there to work on PT and not the core game, then you can make the argument that PT is taking away from the core game. Because those of us who love the core game would greatly benefit from having 10 people working on it instead of 7.

As for their parent company, its rather suspect to me that OOTP is not advertised anywhere on their website but to be honest, I don't really know what to make of that. I'd be curious to see if they had any other holdings that get the same (lack of) attention.

So in my opinion? The improvements to the true core of the game, not the appearance of the game (which is important to some people) has hit a massive plateau that's been present with very little up tick for the last two or three versions.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by AlpineSK

As someone who has decades in this game at this point, I'd say over 10,000 player hours, and thousands of posts if you combine here and BaseballSimCentral I'm not so much worried about the demise of OOTP than I am the plateau of the game.

They've told us about a lot of under the hood improvements, and I will admit that the graphics are certainly improved but I see the graphics as a way of making some players just say "OOOO Pretty!" to distract them from the true lack of improvement in this game.

The OOTP23 trade and Free Agent AI is the worst that I've seen in the game in all of my years playing. I was reading through my 2013 Red Sox playthrough that is in my signature, looking at old trades, free agents, drafting and what not, and I havent seen nearly that experience in 23. And the historical experience? Its even worse.

Personalities and storylines seem unimportant. The Morale system is extremely stale. It all feels half finished, like they added the feature, started working on it, and then move on to add another feature before that one was completed.

As for PT, I get it: it doesn't take away from the core game in theory. The core game gets the same attention that it did before. But that's the problem: if the staff count goes from let's say, 7 to 10 people, and those 3 people that are being added are solely there to work on PT and not the core game, then you can make the argument that PT is taking away from the core game. Because those of us who love the core game would greatly benefit from having 10 people working on it instead of 7.

As for their parent company, its rather suspect to me that OOTP is not advertised anywhere on their website but to be honest, I don't really know what to make of that. I'd be curious to see if they had any other holdings that get the same (lack of) attention.

So in my opinion? The improvements to the true core of the game, not the appearance of the game (which is important to some people) has hit a massive plateau that's been present with very little up tick for the last two or three versions.

The one problem with your thoughts on the size of the team is...

without PT it would still be 7 and not 10

And then we're back to it not being on their site. As I said earlier, if it's there folks worry and complain they are too involved and taking over. But it's not so, now they complain about that. Not you, but there was a topic earlier where this came up and of course it was causing a lot of worry.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by TuckerDuckson

Com2uS and Gamevil, in conjunction, ruined my last two favorite baseball games I played in my teens.

Safe to say, if they have ANY influence in OOTP I will never buy an OOTP game again, and no one else should either. They also should (but won't because they are a SK company) for having a corner on the baseball market content creation market right now. I don't know if this is conjecture, but they are horrid and need to be nowhere near any, and I repeat, NOWHERE ANYWHERE near of ootp products at all. They will be the single handed fall of this game in 3-5 years if they have full control. If the OOTP dev team has already made that decision they've lost a customer in me. Sad that they sold out this way if they did, and really explains the down turn in quality. If Gamevil or Come2us have any presence it's that you should run away from them 100%.

They're a horrible company who has repeatedly disenfranchised their customers, beyond subpar communication and ramifications for their "updates". aka just roster resets, where they gave the OG creators of the game a bag and then automated the games since then. Call them out. Horrible companies both of them. Zero communication, just a MUT clone which I feel OOTP is turning into. So sad. If Come2us is really calling the shots it says a lot about OOTP23 and the main devs should refund the money and look for other publishers. It really would explain why 23's release was so jank compared to 22s.

Seriously, they have ruined every baseball game I've ever played outside of OOTP, and are a horribly managed company. Please, do not take their blood money. They do not care about baseball at all. Zero. It's so shameful. God even if this isn't true, just the thought makes me want to vomit. I couldn't believe Markus or Lukas would do that.

They should be public on their involvement, how much monetarily, emotionly, and physically each partner is worth so no one is guessing with his channel.

Huh? Markus and co. were totally upfront when they sold the game to com2us. We're on our third(?) version under com2us with v23 and, as Markus said at the time, not much would change on the daily operations. As stated many times, game still comes out yearly, with a new feature list, that doesn't look different than pre com2us. Until that changes exactly what are you complaining about?

Originally Posted by jcard

Regrettably, your comments will fall on deaf ears. The level of dissonance on this forum is staggering. People will resort to the most tortured logic to avoid applying the same profit-maximizing rational-actor model to OOTPD that they would to any other company. Go back and look at the utter nonsense posted in the run-up to the release to filter the situation; Occam has no authority here. Go back further and read the comments when the announcement of the sale was made. Skeptics and those recognizing the lack of candor coming from OOTPD were branded Chicken Littles. Well, to keep with the theme of avian analogues, those who continue to deny the prescience of the doubters simply have their heads stuck in the sand. We all appreciate that the game allows us to build our fictional universes. That does not mean we have to live in a fantasy world.

First there is nothing wrong with profit. Would you turn down your next raise or way to increase your income because I didn't like the way your were making it happen? Yeah, I didn't think so. Your only recourse is to not buy the game instead of trying to tell a man how he should make his living.

The "profit maximizing" aka microtransactions have not touched OOTP proper just as Markus said they wouldn't. OOTP doesn't sell any add-ons, you get the complete game when you buy it. So, not sure why these make any difference at all to someone that only plays OOTP proper? Or why one begrudges Markus generating income from it when it has no bearing on OOTP?

Lack of candor? Markus opened a thread to specifically announce and discuss the sale. Including the aforementioned microtransactions.

When the sky does finally fall you will be right. Until then you are only telling us how you will eventually be right. Look at me!!

The lack of dissonance on this forum is staggering. People will resort to the most tortured logic to speculate on the demise of OOTP. A clock is right twice a day. These guys haven't been right in 18 years.

With Markus being the leader and game creator it is possible, when he decides to retire, OOTP could end. It is also just as likely(?) that Matt would simply step up as team leader and the game goes on. If the game goes on for another 20 yrs under come2us, Markus retires, and OOTP comes to an end? Well all of the doomsayers can point to a 20 something year old thread crowing about how they were right all along.

[BarneyRubble]

Originally Posted by Sweed

The lack of dissonance on this forum is staggering.

I couldn't agree more.

[bwiese3908]

Originally Posted by Sweed

Huh? Markus and co. were totally upfront when they sold the game to com2us. We're on our third(?) version under com2us with v23 and, as Markus said at the time, not much would change on the daily operations. As stated many times, game still comes out yearly, with a new feature list, that doesn't look different than pre com2us. Until that changes exactly what are you complaining about?



First there is nothing wrong with profit. Would you turn down your next raise or way to increase your income because I didn't like the way your were making it happen? Yeah, I didn't think so. Your only recourse is to not buy the game instead of trying to tell a man how he should make his living.

The "profit maximizing" aka microtransactions have not touched OOTP proper just as Markus said they wouldn't. OOTP doesn't sell any add-ons, you get the complete game when you buy it. So, not sure why these make any difference at all to someone that only plays OOTP proper? Or why one begrudges Markus generating income from it when it has no bearing on OOTP?

Lack of candor? Markus opened a thread to specifically announce and discuss the sale. Including the aforementioned microtransactions.

When the sky does finally fall you will be right. Until then you are only telling us how you will eventually be right. Look at me!!

The lack of dissonance on this forum is staggering. People will resort to the most tortured logic to speculate on the demise of OOTP. A clock is right twice a day. These guys haven't been right in 18 years.

With Markus being the leader and game creator it is possible, when he decides to retire, OOTP could end. It is also just as likely(?) that Matt would simply step up as team leader and the game goes on. If the game goes on for another 20 yrs under come2us, Markus retires, and OOTP comes to an end? Well all of the doomsayers can point to a 20 something year old thread crowing about how they were right all along.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion... People worry about things they care about.



Not sure why you feel belittling someone is fun or funny... however the overuse of emojis tells me all i need to know

[BarneyRubble]

If I knew nothing about OOTP and came here to check it out, I'd most likely take a pass on this game.

And remember, don't belittle the people belittling.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by chargerrich

... becoming the MUT like feature that ruined a once proud Madden franchise mode?

To this day the Madden product is a far worse product (for franchise/GM players) than the PS2 era Madden 06/07... I do not want this to happen to the best baseball sim on the market.

But it seems to me like 23 continues to chase the perfect team money to the detriment of what this game has always been about and that makes me both nervous and sad after seeing what Madden has become (not that EA cares as it rakes in money which makes me think OOTPD wont care either).

In any event, I am voting with my wallet and still playing 22 after refunding 23 as it seemed to be a far less step forward in the franchise than in years past. This will be the FIRST version I have not purchased annually since 2004.

Perhaps I am wrong here and I am not trying to speak as factual but I am getting a sour vibe from 23... am I alone here?

EA Screwed Madden by buying the exclusive license in 2006.