Football Manager vs OOTP! Silly??

[4maddux_cy's]

I actually think one of the biggest ways to make a huge leap forward would be the ability to manage a game against another user online. I realize the logistics of making that happen are huge but I think competing against another person would be amazing.

[ohiodevil]

Originally Posted by AlpineSK

You can delegate pretty much anything you do so I'd recommend doing that. That's how I learned how to play the game years ago. I started with delegating training, for example, and now it might be my favorite thing to manage in the game.

I'd recommend checking out some Youtube tutorials. Start with Zealand. he's fantastic.

Thanks! I will check that out tonight

[SirMichaelJordan]

Originally Posted by progen

Steam will be starting their Summer sale tomorrow, the 23rd, so keep an eye on that. And there are a ton of "newbie guides" to get you going. There are also some really good websites that are dedicated to FM. You can get tactics there, and helpful hints.

I've played just about every sports genre out there, including horse racing, which I know nothing about, and rugby as well. The games were pretty solid, and it was really fun "learning" a new sport, and in the beginning how frustrating it was for me personally, but as time went on, how rewarding those games were, and that I still play from time to time.

lol, me too. I'm at the same point. I've even thought about checking out this eSports manager game

I've also have been playing Tennis Manager and Pro Cycling manager recently, and I can't wait for the new F1 manager game.

Edit-

As I write the word "manager" multiple times in this posts, I have to wonder if OOTP is a management game or a baseball simulator?

I, along with a few others, have suggested some GM aspects in the game, resulting in us having a GM option. But, I am unsure which direction the franchise would like to go. I wouldn't be surprised to see some of the GM stuff from FHM make it into the game, but we may be far away from "FM."

[progen]

Originally Posted by SirMichaelJordan

lol, me too. I'm at the same point. I've even thought about checking out this eSports manager game

I've also have been playing Tennis Manager and Pro Cycling manager recently, and I can't wait for the new F1 manager game.

Edit-

As I write the word "manager" multiple times in this posts, I have to wonder if OOTP is a management game or a baseball simulator?

I, along with a few others, have suggested some GM aspects in the game, resulting in us having a GM option. But, I am unsure which direction the franchise would like to go. I wouldn't be surprised to see some of the GM stuff from FHM make it into the game, but we may be far away from "FM."

Yeah, I like Pro Cycling Manager. I generally build a team from scratch, and then try and figure out what to do during the races. I stepped away briefly, but think I'll start another game as a "new rider." Like I said in a previous post, seeing that I could create a rider, and see how my career turns out, is what prompted me to buy PCM2020.

And I have both Tennis Manager games on my Steam wishlist, so depending on the sale price tmw, I may purchase the latest one. I also have "Boxing Club Manager" on my wishlist, but that game has a long way to go before I purchase it.

[jeffw3000]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

I wouldn't remove historical play or fictional play, since to me whatever game that was wouldn't be OOTP anymore. We may as well see how much you can mash the spacebar to see how far your guys hit the ball while we're at it.

I think the big point is that Football Manager essentially defined the genre. And I think the fact that they came along and made the type of game popular also had a huge impact in setting the market. The only reason OOTP exists is because Football Manager exists and Markus was a fan of it. I mean, why else would a baseball video game be made in Germany?

Speaking personally, when people ask who I work for and I say OOTP, nobody has heard of it. To describe it to anyone from Europe, I just say "it's Football Manager for Baseball" and like 90% of people know what I mean right away without me saying anything else. When I say that to an American, most of them stare at me with a blank face, and now I have to describe what the entire strategy/management genre of games is about.

I would love it if we could get the reach of Football Manager. But the fact that they basically set the stage, and set the stage with a sport that only really has had a marginal following in North America up until the last few years, means the NA market never truly caught on. Like take all the top sports in North America and look at what management games are out there for them. There aren't any super crazy selling management games for Football or Basketball out there, and those sports are just as popular in NA as baseball is. That's one thing that all the other top sim/strategy games have in common - Football (Soccer), Tennis, F1 Racing, even Cycling all are basically the top sports in Europe. That's not to say it will always be the case - the genre clearly has a lot of space to grow, which is why we are growing our team and continuing to push.

We're proud of what we're building. And we are always listening to the feedback on what can be improved. Nobody on the team thinks our game is perfect. But unfortunately we are still a small team, and there's only so many hours in the day. If we could get through everything I have on my task list for OOTP24, it would be a game that would blow the current one out of the water. But we'd also need a team the size of FM to pull that off, so we'll just do the best that we can to make the game better every year.

Well said. To do what the OP is saying would ultimately change OOTP into a different game, and would be like starting over. Could it be successful, perhaps, but it would be a risky move, and would probably alienate a lot of the people who have supported the game for years. Myself included. I have been playing for years. Ever since version 3.

I do think the OP under estimates the way FM has pretty much defined the sports management genre, and how well known and popular it really is. As Matt said FM has a huge wide popularity and is well known in the Sports Management genre, outside the US. Soccer is also extremely popular. Just look at how many new Soccer Management games come out on Steam as opposed to baseball.

When I was in India doing training, people would notice I had Steam on my laptop, and ask me what I was playing. I would tell them mostly OOTP and FM. Almost none of them new what OOTP was, but they all knew FM, and most had played FM before.

[jeffw3000]

Originally Posted by David Watts

Thank you very much. This probably isn't something I would ever be interested in, but I know my nephew would love that kind of stuff.

I have to admit, the player interaction in FM is well done, and probably my favorite feature in FM. I am a more casual player of FM, while I play OOTP all the time, because I am a huge Baseball fan. I do not play OOTP for the same reasons I play FM, but if interactions were added similar to FM, I may or may not use them.

I am not a huge Soccer fan, but I still enjoy FM. I must admit, if I were not a Baseball fan I am not sure if I would play OOTP.

[LansdowneSt]

What if you did something like this (Word document attached). It would still be OOTP but there would be away to shape you career and world in a far greater way.

It's simple but I think it is feasible to implement (if the developers and community want such a thing) and still have OOTP be OOTP.

Give it a read but be kind, I've never played FM

[RonMexico4MVP]

I'll preface with I love FM (and it made me appreciate the nuance of soccer) but despite a (brief) shared lineage, they don't really belong in the same comparison because their underlying fundamentals are so different.

With all due respect to the ***, KBO et al, there's just not the depth of the baseball world to have a universe nearly as rich as what exists in FM.

If FM were comprised solely of, say England (or any single one of the big 4-5 leagues), a couple of 2nd-tier leagues, say Belgium/Denmark where their top players could occasionally make it to the top tier of the 1 "big" league and absolutely nothing else in the database, the game would be terrible. FM works because the footballing world is so vast, there's no shortage of world-class leagues, no shortage of worldwide depth and they have the resources to do a damned good job of capturing that. And even then, the regen system has plenty of room for growth but that's neither here nor there.

To borrow from another game most of us have dabbled in for some time-- in Civ terms, FM is building wide where OOTP is building tall. In this case, the tall is all the options, the playstyles, etc etc because the world breadth just isn't there to flesh out the experience in other sports. I have FM saves that I'll remember forever...that will go ~ 10-12 seasons. I've had OOTP saves go 100+. It's not to say that a bigger number is better. It's not necessarily. It's just apples and oranges.

There's a million things I'd like to see improve in OOTP. I've played this game since OOTP2 where I ordered the CD by mail after playing Microleague as a kid. I've played FM since CM01/02. Both series have had their ups and downs but both are immensely different takes on immensely different sporting worlds and just saying "Make OOTP more like FM" isn't going to make for the experience you want.

By all means, increase the immersion, improve the underlying foundations, do all the things. It will just look like a far different product from the evolutions of FM since the worlds they look to simulate are so entirely different.

[tcblcommish]

Originally Posted by LansdowneSt

What if you did something like this (Word document attached). It would still be OOTP but there would be away to shape you career and world in a far greater way.



It's simple but I think it is feasible to implement (if the developers and community want such a thing) and still have OOTP be OOTP.



Give it a read but be kind, I've never played FM

This is the kind of thing that people should be doing instead of flat out complaining about how it is and how it works or doesn't. Give ideas.



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[Marinersfan51]

Reading this has actively made me hope that OOTP never gets as big as FM. I've never played FM and have no interest in soccer, but all of features that have been highlighted as the key to FM being bigger or better hold no appeal to me and remind me of all of the frustrating new "features" that they stuck in NBA 2K several years ago that made the game less enjoyable for me.

OOTP is miles ahead of any other text based sim of any American based sports and all of the examples of more successful text based sims are all sports that are significantly more popular in Europe than in North America. Basketball in huge in North America and fairly popular in the rest of the world and there have been almost no attempts to even make a basketball sim (the DDS games are probably the most notable and they have very small player bases and are incredibly buggy). I just don't see where there is the room to significantly grow OOTP's player base without fundamentally changing what it is into something that would hold little to no appeal to the current player base. Are people really looking for a management game that has a baseball themed skin instead of a baseball sim with some management aspects?

[andyhdz]

One suggestion, I wish the news stories didn't feel so canned and repetitive. Of course I don't want to detract from the amount of work that's been put into them because it's better than nothing which is what we had when OOTP first came out but if the news stories were better fleshed out such as team news, farm reports, news on winning streaks or losses, listings of all retirements at the end of the season, things like that it would be so much better. Right now it's the same canned stories and only the players and teams change. The filters are a big start but now we can probably go deeper. Right now I have it set to ignore news about injuries and trades from my league because I don't care if a reliever gets hurt or yet another minor league player was traded so I miss out on some major happenings. What if I had a quick filter to only see trades or injuries involving players with a certain minimum player rating or potential? Little things like that go a loong way.

[PSUColonel]

To me, some of the problems in expanding may be that the developers are anchored to the original code and mechanics, and it would require a total re-write (or large portion of OOTP) to implement.

For example, hitter should have strengths and weaknesses against certain pitches and locations. It would be great to be able to have data analytics and scouting reports such as something like the graphs below. OOTP isn't a physics based engine (it's primarily a text sim) and I am not sure this would be anything more than eye candy in the end. Is there a way to implement more strategy, while having it mean something? I can't answer that question, as I am not a programmer. This is just one example of what I think a lot of people mean by a "deeper game experience". In FM, there is an entire section dedicated to data analytics...as referenced in more of the screenshots below. I think combining scouting and data analytics would go a long way in creating some immersive depth...but once again, it would need to be pertinent and useful...right now, they way the OOTP engine is, I am not sure this could be done...but I could be wrong.

[LansdowneSt]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

To me, some of the problems in expanding may be that the developers are anchored to the original code and mechanics, and it would require a total re-write (or large portion of OOTP) to implement.

In that Word document, I tried to keep it in the realm of the do-able within the current game mechanics. I don't think the game will ever be something like that, PSU. But the way I thought about was a bit like Civ where different civilizations have an inherent advantage to a victory path and you can either round them out to not be one-dimensional or lean all-in to go for it.

So, Oakland and Boston are different markets, maybe (in my example in the attachment), I go all-in to keeping Devers happy to lower his ask (to just me in contract negotiations) by X% to keep him Boston or redevelop the park for a hit now but five-year boost thereafter in revenue as my prospects hit arbitration. Or if I am Oakland, spend my points to get out of Oakland and get a second scout and spend points to augment the development budget to better identify good draft picks and develop them to offset my poor revenue. I think it augments and helps shape the things OOTP does well and adds a bit of ownership over the world. At least more ownership over it. Just an idea

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by LansdowneSt

In that Word document, I tried to keep it in the realm of the do-able within the current game mechanics. I don't think the game will ever be something like that, PSU. But the way I thought about was a bit like Civ where different civilizations have an inherent advantage to a victory path and you can either round them out to not be one-dimensional or lean all-in to go for it.

So, Oakland and Boston are different markets, maybe (in my example in the attachment), I go all-in to keeping Devers happy to lower his ask (to just me in contract negotiations) by X% to keep him Boston or redevelop the park for a hit now but five-year boost thereafter in revenue as my prospects hit arbitration. Or if I am Oakland, spend my points to get out of Oakland and get a second scout and spend points to augment the development budget to better identify good draft picks and develop them to offset my poor revenue. I think it augments and helps shape the things OOTP does well and adds a bit of ownership over the world. At least more ownership over it. Just an idea

and a good one too!! Keep them coming. I think we need ideas and constructive thought.

[kq76]

Originally Posted by LansdowneSt

What if you did something like this (Word document attached). It would still be OOTP but there would be away to shape you career and world in a far greater way.

It's simple but I think it is feasible to implement (if the developers and community want such a thing) and still have OOTP be OOTP.

Give it a read but be kind, I've never played FM

I really like what you did with this! I hope if you have anymore ideas that you update it, maybe create its own thread.

[oomm]

Again, the OP's nailed it. Re the "UI" which is surely vintage 25 years ago and re content creation (this is simply factual. To not at least recognize this point is to announce you know nothing about current video gaming trends).

And the discussion re FM actually has me interested in FM. To be totally honest, what attracts me to OOTP is the BASEBALL, not the game itself. I often find myself overlooking the game (and working against the game).

Like, I have NEVER bothered to glance at the league home page or whatever it's called after the first few times. It allures me that much.

I suspect the evergreen defenders of OOTP tend to confuse the baseball with the actual gameplay itself.

[oomm]

So, re content creation - open it up so developers can create skins for information presentation eg stats. That's a decent beginning. Have UIs and data presentation as actually dynamic HTML pages.

re content creation - look at how much the community content creation has brought to the game: ballparks, logos, uniforms, schedules etc. Imagine OOTP without those.

[jimmysthebestcop]

Originally Posted by oomm

Again, the OP's nailed it. Re the "UI" which is surely vintage 25 years ago and re content creation (this is simply factual. To not at least recognize this point is to announce you know nothing about current video gaming trends).

And the discussion re FM actually has me interested in FM. To be totally honest, what attracts me to OOTP is the BASEBALL, not the game itself. I often find myself overlooking the game (and working against the game).

Like, I have NEVER bothered to glance at the league home page or whatever it's called after the first few times. It allures me that much.

I suspect the evergreen defenders of OOTP tend to confuse the baseball with the actual gameplay itself.

As much as I love management aspects of games. I think the 3 big things holding OOTP back from being popular in the gaming community are as follows:

1. GUI - it is just so out dated. it needs modernization and to be streamlined. Every game I play is heavy with mouse clicks but OOTP the level of mouse clicks is insane. And it comes down mostly to the GUI. Ive been playing since 18 and the GUI is at least 95% exactly the same with some minor quality of life improvements.

2. OOTP must partner with youtubers and twitch streams. Popular ones. In the sports genre, management, and indy categories. And actively eek their feedback. They know what makes games good and what makes them popular. This is the modern video game. Why go against the trend?

3. Difficulty level

OOTP no matter what setting is extremely easy. Even when not cheesing the AI. The Gaming community needs a higher difficulty factor.

I havent played single player campaign since XX. I was able to take Miami to 3rd place my first year and everyone was on mlb minimum 700k wages. 2nd year WS contenders. 3rd year won.MY budget increased
from 100 million to 230 million. While I still have the 5th lowest payroll.

The amount of financial freedom just makes it too easy. You can sign any free agent. Either keep them or trade them. Cause you will sign them faster then the AI. You can 99% always get the best Int Amateurs Free Agent. I you want to WIN NOW you can instantly trade them on any difficulty for a huge prospect.

3rd year not only was in WS but my AAA, AA, A+ all made their championship game. My DSL2 finished 1st but was eliminated and my Int Complex won their tournament.

It did help Nationals put Soto on trading block. Took a lot to get him but no other team could afford him. I have almost 90 million free budget.

Free agency, rule 5, waivers, 40 man, finances the AI has almost no shot. The more time a human puts into the game better they are.

Rule 5 is filled with mlb ready talent. Again its been this way since 18.
Teams dont draft them cause their 40 man is filled with either old bums or young players not even ready for the mlb. Ive seen teams put new draft picks on 40 man. Why? They are in A ball and not rule 5 eligible.

Ive seen minor leaguers under 25 with 2.5 potential waived. They arent on 40 man and have 0 mlb service time. Why are they being waived?

Even as the #1 team in mlb you can sit there and claim waivers everyday. Make you minor leagues better and then make package deals for mlb ready prospects. Difficulty settings dont matter.

The trading block. I dont even know how well the AI uses it with other AI teams. Their are stud rentals there and teams just want to dump contracts. Why isnt the AI making moves? The human can trade for them. And then immediately ship them out in a pseudo 3 team deal for prospects. Made especially easier if you eat the rest of the rental contract.

Not only was my Miami WS contenders but my top 3 milb teams were dominant as well. And I also felt bad for the White Sox always sucking so I purposely traded with them my good milb guys and some free agents. Yeah guess who I beat in the WS the white sox.

So not only did I make my team a contender, I made an AI team a contender and at least 3 or 4 of my milb contenders too. And i havent played ootp single player in at least 2 years.

I dont even want to continue my save cause its too easy. I dont want to not do stuff in the game or what is the point of playing it? Even if I start over on another bad team the same thing will happen in 3 years.

And I consider all of that normal. Policing and house rules I dont believe in as most gamers dont.

And this isnt even the CHEESE part. That would be drafting 10 rule 5 guys and trading them for prospects. While most teams release them in a month.

Crazy contracts that favor the human and trick the AI into accepting the contract and then trading them with huge buyouts and letting the AI teams eat a 40 million buyout. The AI doesnt even evaluate team option buyouts.

Signing all of your top prospect to long terms crazy cheap mlb deals. Kind of cheesey.

GUI, Content Creators, Difficulty those 3 things need to be brought into the modern video game world.

[MathBandit]

Ah, we seem to have come to the heart of the matter. See, I thought we were discussing OOTP23, not how well the single-player mode worked 4 years ago, but how well it works today after multiple huge leaps forward since XX.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by MathBandit

Ah, we seem to have come to the heart of the matter. See, I thought we were discussing OOTP23, not how well the single-player mode worked 4 years ago, but how well it works today after multiple huge leaps forward since XX.

I think what he is saying is these are the types of things he might have expected to be implemented over the past 5 years.