Football Manager vs OOTP! Silly??

[luckymann]

May I ask how FM rates in the pants department?

[MathBandit]

Originally Posted by jimmysthebestcop

You seem to be taking this really personal. Why do defensive? You have nothing to do with OOTP or OOTPD. Why cant you give the game honest criticism? Why do you get offended and need to lash out when others give the game honest criticism?

Sorry no one in their right mind who has played video games would think the OOTP gui is modern.

A lot of the community here knows baseball and knows ootp but it is pretty easy observation to determine the vast majority of the forum contributors know very little about the video game world.

I'm not taking it personally, and in fact specifically didn't respond to most of this thread because I didn't have anything helpful to contribute and others are entitled to their opinion. But to say that a subjective opinion (GUI is bad) is factual, is just flatly incorrect and makes everything else you say less credible by association.

Once someone sees you stating obvious opinions as a "fact", it becomes much easier to assume any reasonable points you are making are equally overblown.

[jimmysthebestcop]

Originally Posted by alpinesk

i will 100% say that i value historical play in ootp a lot. In fact, its one of the main ways that i've always played the game ever since i bought it. Its suffering though, as evidenced by my now locked thread about the trade ai in my 1989 sim. So i will give you that. But if we're going to talk about the total package there are a few things that need to be brought up:

manager / player interactions - fm is light years ahead of ootp here. My interactions with players effect not only that one player but the locker room atmosphere. Also players develop friendships and favorite teammates and coaches. Signing those players have an impact on player attitude and desire to play for your club. I rarely look at the team chemistry page in ootp. Why? Because pretty much the only way that i can impact it is by winning.

player traits and personalities - ootp's personalities are static. Fm? Dynamic. I can mentor players in fm which gives them more desirable traits that can positively or negatively effect them. Also certain players flat out won't fit well in your team and their development will stall. Ootp? You bring a "prankster" into a room filled with serious players, you dont think peer pressure is going to wear off on them a bit? Come on.

the understanding of what a rivalry is - in fm rivalries mean something to fans and players. If you're manu and you sign a chelsea player its going to be met with skepticism from the people who matter. In ootp i can play as the red sox and trade a package of players as the 2nd place team to the 1st place yankees for their #1 starter and no one blinks an eye. Ootp treats the yankees vs. The red sox the same as they would the mariners vs. The marlins.

depth in scouting - in ootp i get a few sentences. In fm i get a true fog of war. I can establish a diverse group of scouts who look beyond "he's a good contact hitter." scouting reports and scouting in general are far more deep. I've tried playing ootp in stats only mode and frankly i dont think things are nearly deep enough to make it enjoyable for me. While i havent done it, i feel that would be much more enjoyable of an undertaking with fm.

I could go deeper but i think this is good enough for now. There are some good aspects of ootp. That's why i've been playing it for almost 20 years but frankly, so many sports management franchises have passed them by, and frankly, with the increased focus on pt, i dont see that stopping. And we can make excuses about budgets and team size but the needle on a lot of the gm aspects of the game needs to start moving a lot more than it has.

+1

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by AlpineSK

I will 100% say that I value Historical Play in OOTP a lot. In fact, its one of the main ways that I've always played the game ever since I bought it. Its suffering though, as evidenced by my now locked thread about the trade AI in my 1989 Sim. So I will give you that. But if we're going to talk about the total package there are a few things that need to be brought up:

Manager / Player interactions - FM is light years ahead of OOTP here. My interactions with players effect not only that one player but the locker room atmosphere. Also players develop friendships and favorite teammates and coaches. Signing those players have an impact on player attitude and desire to play for your club. I rarely look at the Team Chemistry page in OOTP. Why? Because pretty much the only way that I can impact it is by winning.

Player traits and personalities - OOTP's personalities are static. FM? Dynamic. I can mentor players in FM which gives them more desirable traits that can positively or negatively effect them. Also certain players flat out won't fit well in your team and their development will stall. OOTP? You bring a "Prankster" into a room filled with serious players, you dont think peer pressure is going to wear off on them a bit? Come on.

The understanding of what a rivalry is - In FM rivalries mean something to fans and players. If you're ManU and you sign a Chelsea player its going to be met with skepticism from the people who matter. In OOTP I can play as the Red Sox and trade a package of players as the 2nd place team to the 1st place Yankees for their #1 starter and no one blinks an eye. OOTP treats the Yankees vs. the Red Sox the same as they would the Mariners vs. the Marlins.

Depth in Scouting - in OOTP i get a few sentences. in FM I get a true fog of war. I can establish a diverse group of scouts who look beyond "he's a good contact hitter." Scouting reports and scouting in general are far more deep. I've tried playing OOTP in Stats only mode and frankly I dont think things are nearly deep enough to make it enjoyable for me. While I havent done it, I feel that would be much more enjoyable of an undertaking with FM.

I could go deeper but I think this is good enough for now. There are some good aspects of OOTP. That's why I've been playing it for almost 20 years but frankly, so many sports management franchises have passed them by, and frankly, with the increased focus on PT, I dont see that stopping. And we can make excuses about budgets and team size but the needle on a lot of the GM aspects of the game needs to start moving a lot more than it has.

I'm still really curious in regards to a lot of the stuff mentioned. For example, how do you interact with your players? How exactly does that work? How do you mentor players. Can you give some examples of the things you can do to mentor a player? Is the list of options open ended and up to you, or do you have a list of actions you choose from to mentor the player?

[LansdowneSt]

Thanks for the additional color on FM, jimmysthebestcop.

So, I understand what I say next is going to be very simplistic to one who plays games like FM on a regular basis, but I want to ensure I clearly understand conceptually first and then also try to angle it to baseball.

I am a GM and I want to build my own story and better shape the world around me so I feel invested in it. So - again, forgive me the simplicity - say I have a pot of "influence points" and I can spend these on the owner to get certain things (move the fences to attract a player, add seating, redevelop the neighborhood for incremental revenue gains) or on players (to make a surely player a better teammate, to focus on them on training - so a small boost in contact or fielding, or to have fan fests to increase fan interest) or to convince the owner to move on budget or focus them on convincing him to move the team out of Miami ... or in other ways to make it feel like I am shaping the world around me.

Am I getting close to it? I'm sure the list could expand and the level of impact on the players, finances, market etc. could be debated. And while Matt is correct with regard to the love of historical and fictional in the OOTP fanbase (and baseball is especially tied to historical), I could see these factors being overlays to the engine or part of league and player evolution. It is simpler if it is kept to the Quickstart and Fictional game elements so as not to add one more variable to historic games - where I think the players like myself want the player to perform as they did when they did.

Anyway, in an OOTP baseball context, is that the correct line of thinking?

[Sweed]

Yes, you should not speak of OOTP's demise. That is the hyperbole that brings me into these conversations.

The game does what it is supposed to year after year. It's not up to me the direction it goes. I leave that to Markus, Matt, and team. I will say reading how everyone else knows better, year after year, is entertaining, for a lack of a better term.

For those that say "only a roster update" or any other claims of "nothing new" it becomes obvious they haven't even looked. Time after time they ask for things that are already in the game.

The Show isn't management? Better tell Sony, they are unaware as they have a "franchise" mode available to play in their menu. Like OOTP, not as detailed as you would like. Like OOTP sales continue to grow.

I would think someone at The Show is well aware of Markus and OOTP. If they thought you were right about how deep a management game should be they could easily throw enough money at Markus to come aboard and take over that part of their game. Madden could do the same with Jim Gindin (EA actually had FOF in it's catalog and dumped it well before UT and microtransactions) but didn't see the advantage of adding Jim's financial model to Madden.

I think it is you that is overvaluing how many players are looking for a deep financial model. Folks want to play a game and not go to work. Sure, there is a want and following for that type of game but it is not big in the "big picture".

I want OOTP to go deeper into "reality" and I don't really care in which direction. IE financial or on the field. As longs as it keeps moving along a path of improving. That deeper path, financial or on field, means I'm in a small niche genre no matter which way they go.

Good luck getting Markus and team to adopt your ideas. If they implement all of them I will enjoy the game even more than I do now. If they go a different path? Well, I'll enjoy the game even more than I do now.

[jimmysthebestcop]

FM you can have talks with your players as the manager. Then you have different options. 1 on 1 sessions. you can also hold team meetings on the occasion when something big happens.

you can praise different aspects of a player or you can criticize different aspects of a player. as the human you have to learn when to do what and which players it works on. you learn this based upon how they act.

you can also have team captains and leaders talk to players. or if players are in the same circle of friends you can have a trusted friend talk to them.

these are the general examples there are rules to each option that governs the usage.

Mentoring works with training sessions and you actually setup mentoring circles with influential team leaders holding the mentoring spots. it gives them a chance to dynamically influence player personality traits. again you have to learn the players so you know where to add them. and rules governing everything etc.

even when you as the coach does press or interviews the way you answer can positively or negatively impact your squad. you have to learn your players to know which answers to give. and it changes as your players change or as players come and go.

during the games you have team meeting before, halftime and after game, these impact players. you can even shout at players during the match. and you have to learn who responds to which kind motivation and when to use it etc.

[LansdowneSt]

Also in my simple construct, are there accomplishments that get you more or less FM "influence points to spend" - assuming my analogy even works.

So, I meet an owner goal. A point. I beat my rival in 3/4 of the games, a point. I sell out X games in a row, a point. I improve over last year's record, a point. And failing those is either neutral or some could lead to less points next year?

[AlpineSK]

Originally Posted by David Watts

I'm still really curious in regards to a lot of the stuff mentioned. For example, how do you interact with your players? How exactly does that work? How do you mentor players. Can you give some examples of the things you can do to mentor a player? Is the list of options open ended and up to you, or do you have a list of actions you choose from to mentor the player?

Sure..

Player interaction is through dialogue trees. You can choose to praise them or admonish them on different aspects of their training and games. You can ask them to recommend staff or player signings. You can ask them about locker room atmosphere as well, and when you have a player who is upset you can ask a more influential player to speak with them to try and calm them down if they want to leave or get more playing time.

You can choose when you speak to players or they can initiate it. For example: I play as Wolves. Ruben Neves is my star player. He's being pursued by a few bigger teams (PSG and Liverpool) so I spend a little extra time basically kissing his butt. I tell him training is going great. I'm sure to praise him when he has a good game or when he gets a nod from Portugal to play internationally. The result of all of this is I've become one of his favorite staff members. This enabled me to tell him that I wouldn't sell him for less than $100 million. He's agreeable to that and so is his agent.

I've received offers as high as $95M for him but havent had anyone break $100M yet so that's bought me some time with him to allow me to play at a higher level in Europe and improve the reputation of my club, things that are becoming important to him.

As for mentoring player personalities exist on a spectrum of both good and bad with "balanced" in the middle. You can pick a player with a high determination and work ethic for example who is more experienced, more influential and more senior and pair them with a couple of younger players. If they're a good match based on personalities (not too far apart etc) the younger players will see greater stat increases in some categories and can pick up some player traits (plays through balls, takes first time shots etc) from the more senior players.

Basically its a way to speed up development of some of your mid to higher level prospects.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by AlpineSK

I will 100% say that I value Historical Play in OOTP a lot. In fact, its one of the main ways that I've always played the game ever since I bought it. Its suffering though, as evidenced by my now locked thread about the trade AI in my 1989 Sim. So I will give you that. But if we're going to talk about the total package there are a few things that need to be brought up:

Manager / Player interactions - FM is light years ahead of OOTP here. My interactions with players effect not only that one player but the locker room atmosphere. Also players develop friendships and favorite teammates and coaches. Signing those players have an impact on player attitude and desire to play for your club. I rarely look at the Team Chemistry page in OOTP. Why? Because pretty much the only way that I can impact it is by winning.

Player traits and personalities - OOTP's personalities are static. FM? Dynamic. I can mentor players in FM which gives them more desirable traits that can positively or negatively effect them. Also certain players flat out won't fit well in your team and their development will stall. OOTP? You bring a "Prankster" into a room filled with serious players, you dont think peer pressure is going to wear off on them a bit? Come on.

The understanding of what a rivalry is - In FM rivalries mean something to fans and players. If you're ManU and you sign a Chelsea player its going to be met with skepticism from the people who matter. In OOTP I can play as the Red Sox and trade a package of players as the 2nd place team to the 1st place Yankees for their #1 starter and no one blinks an eye. OOTP treats the Yankees vs. the Red Sox the same as they would the Mariners vs. the Marlins.

Depth in Scouting - in OOTP i get a few sentences. in FM I get a true fog of war. I can establish a diverse group of scouts who look beyond "he's a good contact hitter." Scouting reports and scouting in general are far more deep. I've tried playing OOTP in Stats only mode and frankly I dont think things are nearly deep enough to make it enjoyable for me. While I havent done it, I feel that would be much more enjoyable of an undertaking with FM.

I could go deeper but I think this is good enough for now. There are some good aspects of OOTP. That's why I've been playing it for almost 20 years but frankly, so many sports management franchises have passed them by, and frankly, with the increased focus on PT, I dont see that stopping. And we can make excuses about budgets and team size but the needle on a lot of the GM aspects of the game needs to start moving a lot more than it has.

And why would you think I disagree with this from my post?

I mentioned the total package because someone brought up "it's only a database" and not an argument. It was them that wanted to discredit something about OOTP that FM cannot do.

So, you would then agree that historical is just a database and should not be brought into the argument? Or are you going with "but it's not perfect?"

If the latter that can be said of everything that is being said about FM and how great it all works. Read their forums and you'll find it looks very similar to here.

None of the features for either game is remotely close to being perfect.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by jimmysthebestcop

FM you can have talks with your players as the manager. Then you have different options. 1 on 1 sessions. you can also hold team meetings on the occasion when something big happens.

you can praise different aspects of a player or you can criticize different aspects of a player. as the human you have to learn when to do what and which players it works on. you learn this based upon how they act.

you can also have team captains and leaders talk to players. or if players are in the same circle of friends you can have a trusted friend talk to them.

these are the general examples there are rules to each option that governs the usage.

Mentoring works with training sessions and you actually setup mentoring circles with influential team leaders holding the mentoring spots. it gives them a chance to dynamically influence player personality traits. again you have to learn the players so you know where to add them. and rules governing everything etc.

even when you as the coach does press or interviews the way you answer can positively or negatively impact your squad. you have to learn your players to know which answers to give. and it changes as your players change or as players come and go.

during the games you have team meeting before, halftime and after game, these impact players. you can even shout at players during the match. and you have to learn who responds to which kind motivation and when to use it etc.

Let's use the coaches press interview Can I go Lee Elia and berate the local fans in over the top tirade, or do I have to choose from a list of FM created things coaches can say in these interviews?

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by jimmysthebestcop

You seem to be taking this really personal. Why do defensive? .

Pot, I'd like you to meet Mr. Kettle

[ohiodevil]

These descriptions of how FM works from a management sim has me really interested in checking it out, the only issue is I have almost no knowledge of Soccer (other than watching my nephew play in High School and at a DIII College, and my 10 yr old son playing travel)

What is the learning curve in getting into this game if you don't know much about the sport or the players? And I have heard there are some great mods that drill down to some of the smaller levels of the sport on Steam. What advise would you give to someone like me who wants to check it out but does not want to spend $55 on a game that I may not understand. I know there is a demo, but how deep does it let you go?

Thanks!

[progen]

Originally Posted by David Watts

I'm still really curious in regards to a lot of the stuff mentioned. For example, how do you interact with your players? How exactly does that work? How do you mentor players. Can you give some examples of the things you can do to mentor a player? Is the list of options open ended and up to you, or do you have a list of actions you choose from to mentor the player?

As far as interaction with a player. You can have a "one on one" meeting with that player. You can warn them for being sub-par in practice. You can fine them if they miss a practice. There are 4-5 options you can choose with the player interaction. You can also "praise" them for their recent form in games or in practice. And you can even ask them to recommend a player that you may want to sign(buy). A player will also request a meeting with you, perhaps regarding his playing time, or that he's outgrown your club, and wants to move on. You can flat out turn down the meeting, accept it, or have your captain talk to him first. If you do talk to him and tell him he's staying at the club, you may get an email indicating the team is upset at your treatment of the player. Then, you can schedule a team meeting if you so desire. The "off the pitch" experience is just as challenging as the "on pitch(gameday) can be. It really does draw you in, and hours just fly by while you're playing.

During the game, you can "bark out" instructions from the Touchline(sideline in the US), which can sometimes encourage your squad, or hinder them, depending on how good or bad they take criticism. You can change "formations" during the game. And when substituting, you can "interact" with the player before he goes on the pitch. Tell him "your counting on him", tell him "you have faith in him", or simply tell him "to go out and play with no pressure." For me, it really "draws" me into the game that's taking place. It makes me feel like I'm right there on the touchline, and that my decisions really do make a difference. Down a goal at the end, instruct your players "to get forward", which means everyone plays in the opponents half and your going "gangbusters" to score a goal. Many times, this can open you up to a counter attack, but it's the risk you take.

Mentoring is when you ask a veteran player to "mentor" a younger player that may be in his first year with the "senior squad." You can also ask your captain to welcome a player that you just purchased from another team during the transfer period. AND, you can also send a player during the season for language lessons. Player may only speak French, and you just bought him to play for your club in the UK. Adaptability in FM means a ton more than it seems to mean(if anything) in OOTP.

I also find I have to do less micro-managing in FM than OOTP. Especially with OOTP and dealing with the farm system. I generally let my minor league managers handle things, but it is frustrating when my second round SP pick, who has the makings of a mid-rotation guy, is stuck in the bullpen by my coach?

Although I haven't purchased OOTP23(currently playing OOTP22), I've been playing since OOTP4, and I enjoy this game. I don't like to always compare the two games, I would just hope that OOTP would take some things from FM(player interaction, improved finances), and at the same time, have FM take some things from OOTP, historical function, a more user friendly editor, to move teams around, add leagues, etc.

Both developing teams can learn from each other. And I do hope OOTP puts more energy into "new" items in the standard game. Make the GM experience more realistic. Maybe bring back ITP within the standard game, where you can create a player in your likeness, and see if you can get to The Show. Very similar to what Pro Cycling Manager has done with being able to create a rider. More interaction with players, and more information regarding scouting.

OOTP, like FM has given this old guy many years of enjoyment, and "escape from reality." I hope that both games continue for a long time, and the developers continue to learn, and improve the games with every release.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by AlpineSK

Sure..

Player interaction is through dialogue trees. You can choose to praise them or admonish them on different aspects of their training and games. You can ask them to recommend staff or player signings. You can ask them about locker room atmosphere as well, and when you have a player who is upset you can ask a more influential player to speak with them to try and calm them down if they want to leave or get more playing time.

You can choose when you speak to players or they can initiate it. For example: I play as Wolves. Ruben Neves is my star player. He's being pursued by a few bigger teams (PSG and Liverpool) so I spend a little extra time basically kissing his butt. I tell him training is going great. I'm sure to praise him when he has a good game or when he gets a nod from Portugal to play internationally. The result of all of this is I've become one of his favorite staff members. This enabled me to tell him that I wouldn't sell him for less than $100 million. He's agreeable to that and so is his agent.

I've received offers as high as $95M for him but havent had anyone break $100M yet so that's bought me some time with him to allow me to play at a higher level in Europe and improve the reputation of my club, things that are becoming important to him.

As for mentoring player personalities exist on a spectrum of both good and bad with "balanced" in the middle. You can pick a player with a high determination and work ethic for example who is more experienced, more influential and more senior and pair them with a couple of younger players. If they're a good match based on personalities (not too far apart etc) the younger players will see greater stat increases in some categories and can pick up some player traits (plays through balls, takes first time shots etc) from the more senior players.

Basically its a way to speed up development of some of your mid to higher level prospects.

Thank you very much. This probably isn't something I would ever be interested in, but I know my nephew would love that kind of stuff.

[progen]

Originally Posted by ohiodevil

These descriptions of how FM works from a management sim has me really interested in checking it out, the only issue is I have almost no knowledge of Soccer (other than watching my nephew play in High School and at a DIII College, and my 10 yr old son playing travel)

What is the learning curve in getting into this game if you don't know much about the sport or the players? And I have heard there are some great mods that drill down to some of the smaller levels of the sport on Steam. What advise would you give to someone like me who wants to check it out but does not want to spend $55 on a game that I may not understand. I know there is a demo, but how deep does it let you go?

Thanks!

Steam will be starting their Summer sale tomorrow, the 23rd, so keep an eye on that. And there are a ton of "newbie guides" to get you going. There are also some really good websites that are dedicated to FM. You can get tactics there, and helpful hints.

I've played just about every sports genre out there, including horse racing, which I know nothing about, and rugby as well. The games were pretty solid, and it was really fun "learning" a new sport, and in the beginning how frustrating it was for me personally, but as time went on, how rewarding those games were, and that I still play from time to time.

[Anteater]

Originally Posted by ohiodevil

These descriptions of how FM works from a management sim has me really interested in checking it out, the only issue is I have almost no knowledge of Soccer (other than watching my nephew play in High School and at a DIII College, and my 10 yr old son playing travel)

What is the learning curve in getting into this game if you don't know much about the sport or the players? And I have heard there are some great mods that drill down to some of the smaller levels of the sport on Steam. What advise would you give to someone like me who wants to check it out but does not want to spend $55 on a game that I may not understand. I know there is a demo, but how deep does it let you go?

Thanks!

I've been playing FM now for about 15 years. When I started I knew absolutely nothing about soccer but watching actual games and playing FM helped me learn. For me, it's an incredibly fun game and over the years I've become quite a soccer fan. There are many good YouTube videos now to help learn and many settings in the game to simplify it and allow your staff to handle most things. It is a management game, although the 3D engine is quite good now, but not a game like FIFA or Madden where you control the players actions in real time. Instead, you create a base tactic and make some in game tactical changes. Pick it up on the Steam sale if you interested. It will probably be a good price since we're well into the release cycle. The demo allows you to play 6 in-game months which is quite a while and should give you a good feel for the game.

Along with OOTP, I feel fortunate that I have two fun sports management games to play that are best in their class.

[AlpineSK]

Originally Posted by David Watts

Let's use the coaches press interview Can I go Lee Elia and berate the local fans in over the top tirade, or do I have to choose from a list of FM created things coaches can say in these interviews?

You can type in custom responses here and there but typically I don't do it. But yes, you can sit in the press room and berate individual members of the press too. You have a "relationship" at some level with everyone you encounter from player to press to agents.

[AlpineSK]

Originally Posted by ohiodevil

These descriptions of how FM works from a management sim has me really interested in checking it out, the only issue is I have almost no knowledge of Soccer (other than watching my nephew play in High School and at a DIII College, and my 10 yr old son playing travel)

What is the learning curve in getting into this game if you don't know much about the sport or the players? And I have heard there are some great mods that drill down to some of the smaller levels of the sport on Steam. What advise would you give to someone like me who wants to check it out but does not want to spend $55 on a game that I may not understand. I know there is a demo, but how deep does it let you go?

Thanks!

You can delegate pretty much anything you do so I'd recommend doing that. That's how I learned how to play the game years ago. I started with delegating training, for example, and now it might be my favorite thing to manage in the game.

I'd recommend checking out some Youtube tutorials. Start with Zealand. he's fantastic.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by LansdowneSt

Some of what I saw seemed tedious. I realize there is a morale and chemistry system in OOTP that you feel is underdeveloped but what I saw in FM seemed like a lot of micromanaging (though I assume some responsibilities can be assigned to the AI, no?)

This is actually one of the great things about FM. You have a very large staff, and yes, there are a lot (tons) of tasks to be completed. But you can delagate as much or as little of these tasks to staff as you like. So the truth is, if yo wanted to put the entire save on autopilot (the same way some do with OOTP) you could. Usually those type of people are historical types though I think, and I think it would be pointless in FM, since the point of the game is to be a manager. I think my last sentences sums the two up perfectly though. In FM, the point of the experience is to be the manager, in OOTP, not so much. You can be, but on a much more limited basis. As noted, you can also treat it like a model train set and just look at it. (boring to me)