Bill White isn't in the HoF?

[BBGiovanni]

He's a 1B with 38.6 WAR, I get it. But I just wrote a blurb for his retired number for the San Francisco Seals in this game I'm building...

Eight-time All-Star and seven-time Gold Glove winner, earned a championship as a top contributor to the 1964 PCL Champions.
Elected President of the National-Pacific Association in 1989 to replace Bart Giamatti, who succeeded Peter Ueberroth as ABA Commissioner, the first African-American to hold high office for a sports league. He became a full-time sportscaster after his playing career ended in 1969, and was the play-by-play man and color analyst for the Seals for 18 years.

Obviously I changed the teams/leagues, but I think this is kind of embarrassing. IRL he also re-integrated the Carolina League 2 years after the first black player took the field there. If this isn't "fame" maybe they should just give the keys to the Negro League Hall of Fame and let them run the whole thing.

[dsvitak]

Originally Posted by BBGiovanni

He's a 1B with 38.6 WAR, I get it. But I just wrote a blurb for his retired number for the San Francisco Seals in this game I'm building...

Obviously I changed the teams/leagues, but I think this is kind of embarrassing. IRL he also re-integrated the Carolina League 2 years after the first black player took the field there. If this isn't "fame" maybe they should just give the keys to the Negro League Hall of Fame and let them run the whole thing.

I can name two hundred guys more deserving. Start with Keith Hernandez and Don Mattingly.

38.6 WAR? Jason Heyward has a higher WAR. Good God. Starling Marte's is the same.

[pilight]

To get in the HOF as a 1B with that WAR you'd have to be best friends with Frankie Frisch

[dsvitak]

Originally Posted by pilight

To get in the HOF as a 1B with that WAR you'd have to be best friends with Frankie Frisch

Frankie Frisch is a BAD choice. Over 10k plate appearances, one MVP, 2880 hits, and a lifetime .316 batting average. Jesus.

Oh..and only 40 players in the HISTORY of MLB have a higher DWAR.

JAWS has Frisch ranked higher than the following second basemen:

Jackie Robinson (HoF), Ryan Sandberg (HoF), Chase Utley, Lou Whittaker, Roberto Alomar (HoF), Craig Biggio (HoF), Willie Randolph, and ten OTHER HOF's at this position.

[dsvitak]

You want a terrible choice for the HoF?

Here's the guy:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...azerbi01.shtml

JAWS has him ranked as the 50th best second baseman. 50th.

[Westheim]

Sometimes but one swing makes you immortal.

[kq76]

Originally Posted by dsvitak

Frankie Frisch is a BAD choice. Over 10k plate appearances, one MVP, 2880 hits, and a lifetime .316 batting average. Jesus.

Oh..and only 40 players in the HISTORY of MLB have a higher DWAR.

JAWS has Frisch ranked higher than the following second basemen:

Jackie Robinson (HoF), Ryan Sandberg (HoF), Chase Utley, Lou Whittaker, Roberto Alomar (HoF), Craig Biggio (HoF), Willie Randolph, and ten OTHER HOF's at this position.

I'm confused as to whether you do or don't know what pilight was referring to. Maybe you do, but you still think Frisch himself was a bad choice. If that's the case, wow, you've got a small hall.

As for Bill White, here's the list of predominantly 1B who had less WAR than him:

Mule Suttles
Jim Bottomley
Buck Leonard
High Pockets Kelly
Ben Taylor
Buck O'Neil

4 negro leaguers whom we don't have complete stats for and 2 guys, Bottomley and Kelly, who probably shouldn't be in and were both "friends of Fisch". So yeah, I agree with pilight.

The first above White is Gil Hodges at 43.9 who many people for years argued whether he should be in or not.

White was a very good player and his wiki is an interesting read, but I don't think he would make many people's hall, at least not solely as a player, maybe as a builder.

[BBGiovanni]

Originally Posted by kq76

at least not solely as a player, maybe as a builder.

That was the entire premise of the initial post. He broadcast with Phil Rizzuto for crying out loud, talk about racking up some brownie points

[monkeyman576]

I'm more worried about getting Rose, Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, etc in the hall of fame.

[pilight]

Originally Posted by monkeyman576

I'm more worried about getting Rose, Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, etc in the hall of fame.

Now that the BBWAA has established that suspicion of PED use isn't sufficient reason to bar someone most of those should come easily

[Syd Thrift]

I’m pretty sure the argument for White as a Hall of Famer is the overall service, obviously not just what he did as a player. When Keith Hernandez becomes the first Black president of one of the leagues, we can start talking about how he’d be comparable.

[Amazin69]

Originally Posted by BBGiovanni

That was the entire premise of the initial post. He broadcast with Phil Rizzuto for crying out loud, talk about racking up some brownie points

To be fair, having to deal with Scooter Rizzuter on a daily basis certainly qualified White for "patience of a Saint" status. I can remember one mid-1980s game where Phil called the Blue Jays the "Brewers" at least four separate times.

But the best was when the Yankees played the Yndians in 1985 and every time Joe Carter came to the plate, Phil went on about what bad luck it was that Carter had been traded from the Cubs at mid-1984 (in the Sutcliffe deal) because that meant he missed out on the World Series and Phil can remember what a big deal that was when he was playing and how great it was to representing the American League and the extra money helped, too…

…and every single time Bill had to correct that the Cubs lost in the playoffs last season and weren't in the WS, and Phil just ignored him. Until Carter's last AB, when Bill corrected him once more and Phil said "what do you want, White? You know I don't follow that League." I guess Phil only saw the Tigers playing in the 1984 Series; he never noticed the other team?

So, yeah, Bill got lots and lots of sympathy for me. And being ignored by the owners and sidelined by Bud Selig can't have been great, either. Still, I'm not putting him in the Hall for giving Marge Schott a "she was always civil to me" White-wash, personally.

It's one thing for Jackie Robinson to break a barrier that prevented thousands of talented athletes from plying their talents. It's another thing for White to be a token hire for a position that was largely ceremonial by that point and which would be eliminated shortly after he left. All "firsts" are not equal, IMO.

And as a player, he was nice enough, but not Hall-worthy. Heck, he was only the 3rd-best player on his infield. I'd put Boyer and Groat (both MVP winners) in before him.

Boyer—62.8 WAR, 36 on the Standards metric (50 is an Average HoFer), Hall of Fame Monitor (keyed to specific accomplishments) 87 (100 is Likely In)

Groat—36.9 WAR, 24 on Standards, but 103 on the Monitor

White—38.6 WAR, 23 on Standards, and a mere 63 on the Monitor

To be fair, Groat is already in two separate Halls of Fame: college baseball and college basketball. (He was a legend at Duke; clearly better at basketball, but the NBA wasn't established enough at the time.). Maybe he'll let "the kid" go first.

(Groat is currently 91 years old. White's a spry young 88.)

[Amazin69]

Originally Posted by monkeyman576

I'm more worried about getting Rose, Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, etc in the hall of fame.

I'm pretty worried about those guys getting in, too. But so far, so good!

[BBGiovanni]

Originally Posted by Amazin69

It's one thing for Jackie Robinson to break a barrier that prevented thousands of talented athletes from plying their talents. It's another thing for White to be a token hire for a position that was largely ceremonial by that point and which would be eliminated shortly after he left. All "firsts" are not equal, IMO.

At the age of 19, the Giants assigned White to the Danville Leafs where he became the second black player in the Carolina League. And the only black player in the Carolina League in 1953. Jackie Robinson playing in Brooklyn and Montreal in 1947 did not miraculously end segregated baseball. Guys like White and Dick Allen and Henry Aaron were not protected by a major league front office playing north of the Mason-Dixon Line. Because down there, when the first guy left the league, it was essentially segregated again. So White was pushing the rock up the hill all over again. There was no end of firsts for those guys.

[BMW]

((got double posted))

[BMW]

White has that classic Gil Hodges dilemma - how do you qualify someone who was really good/notable at more than one thing in a system designed to enshrine excellence in one area? (Obvious Frankie Frisch-style selections aside, boo, hiss.)

Good player, a good announcer (not a flashy one though, which I personally enjoy but alas not conducive to self-promotion), and president of the National League. Nobody else has that resume, so you can't really compare him to the other All-Star/Broadcaster/Executives out there.

Personally, I would be fine if he were in the HOF - I could piece all the bits of his legacy together and understand why he would be enshrined.

[BBGiovanni]

Originally Posted by BMW

White has that classic Gil Hodges dilemma - how do you qualify someone who was really good/notable at more than one thing in a system designed to enshrine excellence in one area? (Obvious Frankie Frisch-style selections aside, boo, hiss.)

Good player, a good announcer (not a flashy one though, which I personally enjoy but alas not conducive to self-promotion), and president of the National League. Nobody else has that resume, so you can't really compare him to the other All-Star/Broadcaster/Executives out there.

Personally, I would be fine if he were in the HOF - I could piece all the bits of his legacy together and understand why he would be enshrined.

Well said, this all kind of came up when I was going through each team's retired numbers for an OOTP game I'm setting up. Obviously the Giants wouldn't have retired it, the Yankees didn't since he never played there, and the Cards didn't because, well, they have a lot.



Felipe Alou is another of those, not quite enough in any one place to get anything, but the first Dominican manager... and I imagine the first Dominican to play for the Cocoa (FL) Indians and the Lake Charles (LA) Giants in 1956 at the age of 21. These guys are still alive, and we're losing their stories until sometime after they pass away and MLB has the first "Dominican Day" or something and has everybody wear Ozzie Virgil's number and blue and red hats :/ At least Felipe lived to see his induction into the Canadian and Caribbean halls of fame!

[Jason Moyer]

Bill White shouldn't be in as a player, but he should definitely be in as a contributor to the game.

[Pelican]

Originally Posted by Jason Moyer

Bill White shouldn't be in as a player, but he should definitely be in as a contributor to the game.

What you said. As a longstanding/long suffering Phillies fan, I have the memory of White coming over in 1966 at age 32, presumably in the prime of his career. That first year was fine, with 22 HR and 103 RBI and some MVP votes. But after that, injuries and two down years. He was finished by 1968. I don’t know of many (any?) players who made the HOF on a ten-year career. Would take some phenomenal numbers. But as a human being, broadcaster, executive, he belongs.

[dsvitak]

Originally Posted by Pelican

What you said. As a longstanding/long suffering Phillies fan, I have the memory of White coming over in 1966 at age 32, presumably in the prime of his career. That first year was fine, with 22 HR and 103 RBI and some MVP votes. But after that, injuries and two down years. He was finished by 1968. I don’t know of many (any?) players who made the HOF on a ten-year career. Would take some phenomenal numbers. But as a human being, broadcaster, executable, he belongs.

Maybe Kirby Puckett, or Sandy Koufax. Have to be one hell of a player.

Edit to add..if Pujols would have been run over by a Budweiser truck after ten years, he would absolutely made the HoF.