What is you preferred pitching rating? (Stuff, Movement, Control)

[SWAVcast]

I was watching pfholden's video on evaluating pitching ratings and he said that movement was the most critical rating for him, and I was all "that's crazy" but then figured I would ask the board.

For me, it's always been stuff. Missing bats and taking the ball out of play is more important than what happens when it's in play. This is why control is second for me and movement is a distant third.

I'd rather have a guy who is 80,20,60 than 40,70,50 or 80,80,20.

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Stuff
Stuff is a measure of the quality of a pitcher's pitch repertoire. Think of it as essentially how a pitcher "puts it all together." Stuff directly affects the number of strikeouts a pitcher throws. Stuff is calculated based on a combination of his individual pitch ratings and the velocity with which he throws.

Relief pitchers receive a small bonus to stuff, to reflect the fact that batters get fewer looks at their pitches and have less of a chance to adjust to them. OOTP displays that bonus in the form of increased Stuff ratings. This bonus is heavily tied into the strength of a reliever's top two pitches, since relievers have much less incentive to mix in their weaker offerings. This means that a pitcher with a strong fastball, a strong slider, and a weak changeup might make for an average starting pitcher but a great reliever. You get to decide how he provides the most useful fit for your team. You can see the change in a pitcher's Stuff rating if you change the player's position from SP to MR and back.

Movement
Movement is a measure of the movement on a pitcher's pitches. It is harder for batters to make good contact with pitches that have good movement. As a result, pitchers with high Movement ratings tend to give up fewer home runs. Movement is calculated based on factors including ground ball %.

Control
Control is a measure of a pitcher's accuracy. Pitchers with good Control ratings tend to walk fewer batters.

[Clavette]

Movement for me but you have do have decent stuff and control as well

[BirdWatcher]

All of the above and in combinations that are very dependent upon other factors.

For instance, have a groundball pitcher in a park, or era, that suppresses home runs somewhat, good stuff and control with average or below average movement should work out fine.

Have a flyball pitcher in a park or era where home runs are plentiful, might be good to emphasize movement more.

Experienced pitcher with good track record who has elite control and very good movement but underwhelming stuff? In my experience, this usually plays for at least a few seasons until the stuff gets so bad that performance falls off a cliff.

High stuff, good movement, poor control pitcher who induces a lot of groundballs and with a good infield defense behind him? In my experience, he can often work around his bouts of poor control and limit the damage.

What is the statistical environment like? What are your home park effects? How many pitches does the pitcher have in his repertoire? What are they? What is the quality of each pitch? What is your team defense like? Etc., etc.

In other words, I don't have a preference because that risks over-simplifying complex relationships and variables. So, as with most things, it depends.

[MathBandit]

Bulk guys? Movement = Control >> Stuff

Relievers? Stuff > Control > Movement

[kq76]

It depends on the league's run environment, but personally, I like building teams based on defense which means I don't necessarily need great stuff, control, or even movement. I'd rather have pitchers that have fairly even ratings across the board as I find that pitchers who excel in one but are weak in the others often don't consistently do well.

That said, if there were 3 players with all fairly equal ratings except each of them were slightly better in one of the 3, I'd generally pick the Movement (and then Control) guy first for a starter, but the Stuff (and then Movement) guy for a stopper. Starters usually fair pretty well as long as they don't give up a lot of 2+run home runs and they can usually go long if they don't give up walks. Stoppers, OTOH, if you're bringing them in, then it's probably already a pretty tight game so you want any and every extra ability to get outs. And of course you don't want a stopper to give XBHs either, but you're probably in a situation that you can't afford to give up anything. Finally, while it might seem like I don't care about walks, I do. I hate it when my pitchers give up walks, but the thing is they're just not usually the thing that kills you, XBHs and singles with RISP are.

[Sabermetric Sociologist]

Stuff is really important in my evaluations, but if a guy can't hit the broad side of a barn door, it doesn't matter. A team can't afford to surrender five or six walks every time he toes the mound.

[ubernoob]

Not gonna lie, I feel like stuff is stronger in this years game compared to previous versions.

That's only anecdotal and going off of games in the entry pool, but I will definitely be running some different lineups this year to try things out.

Normally I'm your typical Con/Mov guy, but I feel like the engine might give outliers in certain stats better outcomes than they would have in the years past. Will be interesting to watch at leas, but a high stuff/medium mov/con guy might be viable, as might very low stuff but extreme mov/con. A lot of the times it felt in previous years that you had to have very high mov/con, but that will still trend towards probably be true as the year progresses.

[Primary]

if its a pitcher with 55 in 1 category and 50s in the other 2, I want the 55 to be in movement. if it's a pitcher with elite ratings in 1 of the categories, I want it to be stuff

[chuy1530]

If I had the choice, if I've got a good defensive team I'd rather have the higher movement. If my team is weaker defensively give me the stuff.

[Bobbyraz49]

Originally Posted by SWAVcast

I was watching pfholden's video on evaluating pitching ratings and he said that movement was the most critical rating for him, and I was all "that's crazy" but then figured I would ask the board.

For me, it's always been stuff. Missing bats and taking the ball out of play is more important than what happens when it's in play. This is why control is second for me and movement is a distant third.

I'd rather have a guy who is 80,20,60 than 40,70,50 or 80,80,20.

==================================================

Stuff
Stuff is a measure of the quality of a pitcher's pitch repertoire. Think of it as essentially how a pitcher "puts it all together." Stuff directly affects the number of strikeouts a pitcher throws. Stuff is calculated based on a combination of his individual pitch ratings and the velocity with which he throws.

Relief pitchers receive a small bonus to stuff, to reflect the fact that batters get fewer looks at their pitches and have less of a chance to adjust to them. OOTP displays that bonus in the form of increased Stuff ratings. This bonus is heavily tied into the strength of a reliever's top two pitches, since relievers have much less incentive to mix in their weaker offerings. This means that a pitcher with a strong fastball, a strong slider, and a weak changeup might make for an average starting pitcher but a great reliever. You get to decide how he provides the most useful fit for your team. You can see the change in a pitcher's Stuff rating if you change the player's position from SP to MR and back.

Movement
Movement is a measure of the movement on a pitcher's pitches. It is harder for batters to make good contact with pitches that have good movement. As a result, pitchers with high Movement ratings tend to give up fewer home runs. Movement is calculated based on factors including ground ball %.

Control
Control is a measure of a pitcher's accuracy. Pitchers with good Control ratings tend to walk fewer batters.

Wish we had the like button back. Especially for this post.

[texasmame]

I used to be a staunch control guy as walks drive me insane but it seems like stuff can make up for a lot. Then again, my two best pitchers on my team have very low stuff (20s) and movement and control in the 80s.

Either way, green lies!

[andyhdz]

Look at the official OOTP YouTube video about pitcher ratings. It's about Movement.

[oomm]

What is a pitcher "putting together" if he doesn't have movement or control?

Mind you I don't know how OOTP handles it.

[Pelican]

In my experience, a pitcher without good stuff is unlikely to be successful, even if he has decent control and movement on his pitches. I don't look beyond a low stuff number. I move on. Same as with hitters and contact. If that first number is below 40 (I use a 1-100 scale), I don't really care how much power or how good an eye a batter has. I think it's the same with pitchers and stuff. Of course there are always exceptions, for example knuckleball pitchers who have little stuff but crazy movement. Not something I want on my staff, though. For the bullpen, I like a closer with great stuff; although I may choose a guy with control, and leave the stuff guy as my stopper, in OOTP terms. That's the guy I use with the other team's best hitter up and the game on the line - not necessarily the ninth inning.

[oomm]

Ok, so in baseball? the catcher's glove is the target. A pitcher with bad control will miss that target often enough. May result in a called ball but may also result in a ball in play. Exceptions are knuckleballers of course obviously and maybe 100mph hurlers.

[ubernoob]

Originally Posted by oomm

What is a pitcher "putting together" if he doesn't have movement or control?

Mind you I don't know how OOTP handles it.

OOTP handles it this way:


Stuff is essentially K/9
Movement is essentially HR/9
Control is essentially BB/9


Then everything else tells you their descriptors (arm slot, batted ball type, etc.)


This is everything the pitcher can control. BABIP and defense take the wheel on the rest.

If nothing has changed, movement and control are kings as long as you don't hit the break point where the number gets punished for being too low.

[MathBandit]

Originally Posted by ubernoob

OOTP handles it this way:


Stuff is essentially K/9
Movement is essentially HR/9
Control is essentially BB/9


Then everything else tells you their descriptors (arm slot, batted ball type, etc.)


This is everything the pitcher can control. BABIP and defense take the wheel on the rest.

If nothing has changed, movement and control are kings as long as you don't hit the break point where the number gets punished for being too low.

I thought that was changed this year?

[Syd Thrift]

It should also be pointed out that the ratings have a sympathetic effect on each other, that is, a guy with 80 Stuff, 40 Movement, and 40 Control will allow fewer HRs and walks than a guy with 40s across the board. Also, while Stuff is calculated as an aggregate of the Stuff from all your pitches (note: I don’t ever see a pitcher’s stuff rating go down from adding a D quality pitch), how it actually works when a pitcher is relieving (where the game mainly looks at the guy’s best 2 or 3 pitches) or starting (where all pitches are counted and in fact if a player has less than 3 quality pitches they’ll see a debuff after their 2nd time through the order) are different.

[ubernoob]

Originally Posted by MathBandit

I thought that was changed this year?

I don't know, that's why my previous post had said stuff feels stronger anecdotally this year. Picture is some early pitching stats against all levels of teams in the entry pool.

I highly doubt the what the ratings convey change, even if the engine outputs different results for those ratings.