Design philosophies and the non-release of OOTP 23

[AESP_pres]

Originally Posted by MathBandit

The Emperor (or should I say "Ambassador") has no clothes.

See if he would play the chore game if he would have pants now

[torpidbeaver]

I’m comfortably semi-retired after my career as your friend’s uncle who works at Nintendo.

I too am a PT streamer. If Markus and the OOTP crew don’t turn on the PT servers IMMEDIATELY, I will send my legions of streaming fans to Germany to tear down the server farm walls and install an art installation made in my graven image as the new god emperor of OOTP.

Don’t listen to that pretender Skep, he is a false idol. For I am the one true streaming God of OOTP. My 650 subscribers will fly first class (on my dime, natch, streaming has made me a comfortable living after a lifetime of semi-pro Pickle Ball) to Amsterdam and tear apart Germany until my demands are fulfilled.

I nailed my thesis on the door of my local game store and I await the coming revolution with relish. Prepare your bodies and minds for a new OOTP, one that focuses solely on its core gameplay feature: making it easier to stream content to bored Boomers who are waiting for the day’s slate of MLB games to start.

[Stinson]

Originally Posted by skepskepskep

To call my quote whining is so disrespectful to the time and care I put into the words used.

Unfortunately, this is all you're going to run into on these forums; a bunch of gatekeeping brown-nosers who spit on any criticism from anyone that hasn't been around OOTP for a length of time they deem sufficient.

With that said, you've done a pretty terrible job of defending your argument, to the point that even those of us who might like PT, aren't on board with your arrogance and annihilistic approach to the game.

[Maddox]

Originally Posted by Scott83

Your channel has 498 subscribers - hardly the majority that you claim to speak on behalf of.

494 followers. Followers are not subscribers.

Not much else to say that has not been said already. The arrogant and condescending tone of the OP is kind of off the charts and I actually do play Perfect Team.

[Dxgarnett]

Originally Posted by skepskepskep

I'll always be associated with the game, as an ambassador for the game and the community. If OOTP wants drops on my twitch for 23, literally free marketing for them from a passionate member of the perfect team community, that's their prerogative. Killing drops for such a stream would be a big mistake, but I'm not the one who makes that call.

This aged well.

[Nero]

Originally Posted by skepskepskep

Perfect Team is the game. This is not my opinion, it is an intelligent, honest take on reality. If you'll go back and reread my original post like a dozen times, perhaps the wisdom of it will start to reach you.

I love how everyone who is so insecure in an unpopular opinion couches their "wisdom" in passive aggressive speak, as if only they have seen the light, and they are therefore smarter and superior to the unwashed masses that they elect to preach to.

Reality is, what you've stated is your perception, and in many cases, perception is reality, so I think you should acknowledge many people don't perceive things the same way they do, nor do they prioritize things the same way.

From a business perspective, there is zero doubt that Perfect Team is a huge way to monetize the game. In fact, I suspect that they have far more profit from Perfect Team than on sales of the core game.

That said, I've been here since the beginning. OOTP99, before the forums got migrated over here. One thing that has been absolutely consistent is that Marcus and group are passionate about developing the best and most realistic simulation engine possible. The under the hood improvements year to year may escape notice to the QOL improvements, or the desire to add some graphic improvement, but that's the heart of the engine. Without it, Perfect Team is simply "just another card game". For it to reach it's potential earnings they have to continue to innovate and refine the existing engine.

Has profit modeling changed? Absolutely. Hence the addition of Perfect Team. So rest assured, OOTP Developments wants to generate revenue, so I'm sure they are working hard to get Perfect Team fully operational. However I've got zero doubt that the same group hasn't changed their vision. They'll do well in Perfect Team, BECAUSE of the work they put into the game engine, not in spite of it. While the income flow has changed, that certainly doesn't mean Perfect Team is the future, it's still just a part of the whole, and that's a product that will likely see continued improvement.

20+ Years playing OOTP, and over that period, I've seen so many game improvements. Especially when compared to most other "yearly" sports titles. That's not saying they don't care about profit, I know they do, but this is the rare development group who wants to continually refine and perfect their product, they aren't content to just make money. These guys want to make the best product possible. Don't see that much anymore, and frankly that's why I'm not surprised about your take, you just don't realize what a gem these guys truly are, and have been for 20+ years.

[waittilnextyear]

The thing is...well there are 2 things to point out. OK, 3 things. I promise to stop before I get to 4 things.

Thing 1 -- PT is not evil. I am a convert from my original stance several years ago as a blue hair that despised the Diamond-Dynastyesque-franchise-mode-killing-modes (or, I was a convert anyway; my interest in PT is waning a bit after discovering online leagues where you have hu-man competition, but without necessarily a singular "meta"). Anyhow, back in twenty and nineteen or so, I was SKEPtical about whether this newly-fangled PT mode would result in a diminution of the core base game (which many of us, save for the PT-only crowd, know well and love). I thought it might suck all the oxygen out of the room, causing the base game to shrivel and die. You could sift back through my posting history if you were really bored and see that, but don't do that because that would be even more boring. To sum up, my fears were unfounded. Although PT has become a major pillar of present-day OOTP, the underlying game is still there, and still as front-and-center as ever (pants!). So, what I'm saying is, you don't have to like either PT or base game. You can like and play them both without feeling like a Benedict Arnold crossing over to the red coats. While, yes, many players do spend $$$ to advance in PT, and some spend quite a lot, there is a whole industry of players that invest time, spreadsheet wizardry, and/or grind as a substitute--and many of these players are quite successful. If you want to spend, you can. If you don't want to, then don't. Up to you. If you want to be really good at PT one year and then get worse at it every subsequent year like me, that's also your prerogative. I repeat, PT is not a threat to you.

Thing 2 -- Markus Heinsohn is a rock star. We are so lucky to have him and his team in the industry. Can you imagine a world without OOTP? An OOTP-less world? That is, a world in which there is no OOTP? What I'm trying to get at is we live in a world that presently has a computer game called "OOTP" in it. What if it wasn't like that, though? I don't want to imagine that. Who, that loves baseball, would want to live in a world like that? Without him, that's the world we're living in. If any of you are like me, you have hundreds or thousands of hours into the game over the years, doing all manner of fetish-y stuff in the game. We have an active modding community in OOTP that is one of the nicer, and more pleasant spots on the entire internet. If anyone is ticked off about something not being perfect about OOTP23, or the launch, or a nasty bug, you'd better believe that Markus feels that the most acutely. I am giving him the benefit of a doubt that this entire situation presented itself in a way that there was little that could be done, especially given the time and resources available, to head any of this unpleasantness off before it became unpleasant. And the reason I am doing this is because the OOTP dev crew has proven themselves over and over and over and over for the past 20 years.

Thing 3 -- Let's talk a little bit about tone. That's right, I am talking about, according to Google: "a musical or vocal sound with reference to its pitch, quality, and strength." Wait, no, that can't be right. Checks notes....Maybe this one, also per Google: "the general character or attitude of a place, piece of writing, situation, etc." Like many things in life, without the proper character and/or attitude, almost nothing positive can come out of it. You may have a terrible point, or you may have the best point in all of human history, and even going back to australopithecus afarensis (they tended to have some of the best debates of that era 3 million years ago), but if you swaddle it in poor tone, your argument will not be well-received. I think it would be yeoman's work of us all to remember that, yes, part of the game being delayed by approximately one week is not good. If Markus had to choose, he would opt for it to not be this way. If we had to choose, we'd opt for the same. But, it is this way, and we make do. And so it goes. With the devs being busy busy busy right now, let's try to let them focus on this issue and not create brand new ones to distract them.

[nutt]

Boy, if he's such an affiliate or official, I've never engaged with him before. Not to mention, he got himself banned within 12 hours of his first posts!

[dishnet34]

Originally Posted by nutt

Boy, if he's such an affiliate or official, I've never engaged with him before. Not to mention, he got himself banned within 12 hours of his first posts!

I can tell you this - he ain't an affiliate anymore, nor does he speak for any of us who are or who have been OOTP streaming affiliates, like myself. That's the only thing I'll say on this matter.

[84Cubs]

Originally Posted by BennytheKid

I think we all need to not be armchair developers for a change, (especially a change for me) and realize there are 15ish real people working their buns off to give us a game they love as much as we do. Talk to any of these guys and learn they do what they do because they love it. I certainly made that mistake two years ago, I'd urge you not to make it yourself.

Extremely well put, I support Markus and his team! I love this game!

[byzeil]

Originally Posted by Scott83

My god - how self centred and arrogant can one person be!

What an absolutely ridiculous post!

Originally Posted by Scott83

Your channel has 498 subscribers - hardly the majority that you claim to speak on behalf of.

[Baby Ruth]

What everyone fails to notice is that the OP is correct: the core single-player game is not going to bring new revenue. It's the new style of gaming, multiplayer, and pack-buying that will continue to expand and finance the franchise. However, I don't care about that, since I will never play PT, as that's not the kind of game I like. Doesn't mean I don't know where the revenue stream is coming from. You guys all think PT was a coincidence?

[Clavette]

Originally Posted by skepskepskep

You're referring to a vocal few, I represent the majority which mostly have given up on the game right now.

You most certainly represent the .001% both here and on discord

[5-4-3]

I don’t care about Perfect Team in the least. Not even one little bit. Only OOTP matters.

[BaseballNewsNow]

Originally Posted by waittilnextyear

The thing is...well there are 2 things to point out. OK, 3 things. I promise to stop before I get to 4 things.

Thing 1 -- PT is not evil. I am a convert from my original stance several years ago as a blue hair that despised the Diamond-Dynastyesque-franchise-mode-killing-modes (or, I was a convert anyway; my interest in PT is waning a bit after discovering online leagues where you have hu-man competition, but without necessarily a singular "meta"). Anyhow, back in twenty and nineteen or so, I was SKEPtical about whether this newly-fangled PT mode would result in a diminution of the core base game (which many of us, save for the PT-only crowd, know well and love). I thought it might suck all the oxygen out of the room, causing the base game to shrivel and die. You could sift back through my posting history if you were really bored and see that, but don't do that because that would be even more boring. To sum up, my fears were unfounded. Although PT has become a major pillar of present-day OOTP, the underlying game is still there, and still as front-and-center as ever (pants!). So, what I'm saying is, you don't have to like either PT or base game. You can like and play them both without feeling like a Benedict Arnold crossing over to the red coats. While, yes, many players do spend $$$ to advance in PT, and some spend quite a lot, there is a whole industry of players that invest time, spreadsheet wizardry, and/or grind as a substitute--and many of these players are quite successful. If you want to spend, you can. If you don't want to, then don't. Up to you. If you want to be really good at PT one year and then get worse at it every subsequent year like me, that's also your prerogative. I repeat, PT is not a threat to you.

Thing 2 -- Markus Heinsohn is a rock star. We are so lucky to have him and his team in the industry. Can you imagine a world without OOTP? An OOTP-less world? That is, a world in which there is no OOTP? What I'm trying to get at is we live in a world that presently has a computer game called "OOTP" in it. What if it wasn't like that, though? I don't want to imagine that. Who, that loves baseball, would want to live in a world like that? Without him, that's the world we're living in. If any of you are like me, you have hundreds or thousands of hours into the game over the years, doing all manner of fetish-y stuff in the game. We have an active modding community in OOTP that is one of the nicer, and more pleasant spots on the entire internet. If anyone is ticked off about something not being perfect about OOTP23, or the launch, or a nasty bug, you'd better believe that Markus feels that the most acutely. I am giving him the benefit of a doubt that this entire situation presented itself in a way that there was little that could be done, especially given the time and resources available, to head any of this unpleasantness off before it became unpleasant. And the reason I am doing this is because the OOTP dev crew has proven themselves over and over and over and over for the past 20 years.

Thing 3 -- Let's talk a little bit about tone. That's right, I am talking about, according to Google: "a musical or vocal sound with reference to its pitch, quality, and strength." Wait, no, that can't be right. Checks notes....Maybe this one, also per Google: "the general character or attitude of a place, piece of writing, situation, etc." Like many things in life, without the proper character and/or attitude, almost nothing positive can come out of it. You may have a terrible point, or you may have the best point in all of human history, and even going back to australopithecus afarensis (they tended to have some of the best debates of that era 3 million years ago), but if you swaddle it in poor tone, your argument will not be well-received. I think it would be yeoman's work of us all to remember that, yes, part of the game being delayed by approximately one week is not good. If Markus had to choose, he would opt for it to not be this way. If we had to choose, we'd opt for the same. But, it is this way, and we make do. And so it goes. With the devs being busy busy busy right now, let's try to let them focus on this issue and not create brand new ones to distract them.

Incredibly well said. When I got OOTP for the first time, I was blown away by how well I could do what I want. This truly is a sandbox game—you can do anything imaginable as long as it relates to baseball. We owe Markus a huge thanks—for everything.

To be honest, it’s not worth it to argue online about a week delay to Perfect Team. If you are upset about it, that’s fine, but have some empathy. It’s not the end of the world. You will live.

[Thundercrack]

Originally Posted by skepskepskep

I am the present and the future and you'll have to get used to this...

and now apparently the past, too

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Baby Ruth

What everyone fails to notice is that the OP is correct: the core single-player game is not going to bring new revenue. It's the new style of gaming, multiplayer, and pack-buying that will continue to expand and finance the franchise. However, I don't care about that, since I will never play PT, as that's not the kind of game I like. Doesn't mean I don't know where the revenue stream is coming from. You guys all think PT was a coincidence?

Not at all. I've fully supported Markus introducing PT even though I'll never play it. OOTP benefits from PT dollars. PT benefits from all of the development done before it existed and some after. Markus has said from the beginning it's win-win. Doesn't have to be one or the other.
I believe there is a vocal minority that thinks PT is the "devil". Most vet players understand OOTP proper benefits from PT.

The pretentious OP wanted PT to be the be all end all at the expense of everything else. Knew more about how to run OOTP Dev. than Markus. Of course if he got a refund and got to keep v23? Then all was ok.

Not sure how it matters what the OP, you , or I think. The question is what does Markus think or believe. He originated PT. Do you think he doesn't understand where it fits in his business? Because the OP said exactly that.
Work on, improve the engine? Waste of time according to the OP. Get rid of logos, face gen, unis, etc. They're all a waste of time too.
quote from the OP "The ONLY thing that matters is the numbers flying into each other on time and consistently."

I'm guessing on these issues you would not agree? That is where the pushback came from and was fueled to a higher level by "The Chosen One's" attitude.

[DJ_Jak_32]

Originally Posted by Scott83

My god - how self centred and arrogant can one person be!

What an absolutely ridiculous post!

You never met CBeisbol......this could be him in disguise!

[DJ_Jak_32]

Originally Posted by dishnet34

I can tell you this - he ain't an affiliate anymore, nor does he speak for any of us who are or who have been OOTP streaming affiliates, like myself. That's the only thing I'll say on this matter.

Just looked him up, looks like he has lost around 10 followers, I am sure there will be more once they see his childish outburst on here

[MathBandit]

Originally Posted by DJ_Jak_32

Just looked him up, looks like he has lost around 10 followers, I am sure there will be more once they see his childish outburst on here

I also just looked him up, and he seems to have streamed under the title "An unmitigated disaster - Non-Release of OOTP23" with a banner saying "No Game - Don't Buy".

Quite the ambassador to the franchise!