Design philosophies and the non-release of OOTP 23

skepskepskep · 04-22-2022, 11:44 PM

I respect and admire the history of OOTP as an offline baseball simulation tool. In the past few years (really since tournaments were released) the game has become something more than what it once was. No longer a simulation game with an online perfect team mode, this is a perfect team game with an offline simulation mode. That must be understood to make the proper design decisions in how you allot your time.

I realize many will disagree with me here, but they represent the core niche base of the game with very, very little upside for growth. All your growth potential is in the perfect team market, pulling players from The Show and Madden that want to play perfect team in a strategy-based setting as opposed to an action one. With the live head to head championships and the pyramid qualification structure running through leaderboards and special events, you've laid the basis for this becoming an esport some years down the road. That's the direction you need to be going and where your design focus needs to be.

If you were to write down a list of 100 things you need to accomplish by late March to have a successful release, perhaps the first 87 things on that list should be "PT live and functioning the hour of release". I went over the list of changes in the new game and I would be thrilled to trade almost all of it for a working PT. You could literally just resell me OOTP 22 with new cards and tournament leaderboards and I'd be thrilled to buy it. I wonder how much time was wasted on these window dressings that could have been dedicated to core stability testing. You redid the engine...why? It wasn't really broken but it is now. You redid the auction house...why? All I wanted was to filter out cards I own and search by mission. I certainly don't care about pants, I'd get rid of uniforms, logos, facegen, any of that nonsense that slows the game down (those logos take forever to load). The ONLY thing that matters is the numbers flying into each other on time and consistently. You start with that and build from there, but if you don't have that, you don't have anything.

The Show had their stress test weeks out, and it should be obvious now why they took that approach. Why not have two or three stress tests across a variety of builds? Speaking of builds, I've played past betas, this looks more like an alpha build...so I have no confidence we'll actually see the game release anytime soon. It could be weeks or even months given the state of things.

This wasn't a game release, this was a patch to the offline mode that people paid full price for. Perfect team is the game and I'm still waiting for the game to release.

AESP_pres · 04-22-2022, 11:57 PM

" I certainly don't care about pants, I'd get rid of uniforms, logos, facegen, any of that nonsense that slows the game down (those logos take forever to load)."...

Good for you but most do... by the way what kind of old computer you play on if this slow down your computer. My old computer with Windows XP run the game fine and I just use it because I have an old version of FG Modeller on it... that computer must be more than 15 years old.

skepskepskep · 04-23-2022, 12:13 AM

Those that care about pants are the same core niche group I refer to that will buy the game every year or every few years because they are very loyal. I'm not saying your priorities are wrong, I'm saying they are not relevant to the best interests of the game going forward. For the game to get to the next level and make much more $$$ (which benefits the offline sim mode in the long term), Perfect Team is the vehicle and the offline simulation mode needs to be an afterthought in comparison.

If you play Perfect Team tournaments, you're very familiar with waiting for team logos to load and it has nothing to do with the quality of my computer.

Fabtron7 · 04-23-2022, 12:19 AM

I for one embrace this new pantsless world, and bow down to our bare legged overlords!

No more pants!

Sweed · 04-23-2022, 12:19 AM

Maybe just leave it to Markus? I think he's been doing ok on his own.

Ty Cobb · 04-23-2022, 01:01 AM

Ever notice most of the whiners have about 3, maybe 4 posts to their credit, and no skin in the game for length of service? I'm not even one of the longer players and I've been around since 6.5.

Reference point: skep hives are illegal. There are two apiaries within a mile and a half of my cabin on the West Shore (not the West coast).

Raniel3 · 04-23-2022, 02:44 AM

I don't care about Perfect Team at all. I care about simulating real-life baseball and not some childish card collection stuff.

84Cubs · 04-23-2022, 03:00 AM

So we have to have less because you have a slow computer?

Also, if you want to complain about PT not being ready please go here:

https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...lay.php?f=4029

hfield007 · 04-23-2022, 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skepskepskep

Those that care about pants are the same core niche group I refer to that will buy the game every year or every few years because they are very loyal. I'm not saying your priorities are wrong, I'm saying they are not relevant to the best interests of the game going forward. For the game to get to the next level and make much more $$$ (which benefits the offline sim mode in the long term), Perfect Team is the vehicle and the offline simulation mode needs to be an afterthought in comparison.

If you play Perfect Team tournaments, you're very familiar with waiting for team logos to load and it has nothing to do with the quality of my computer.

Mat · 04-23-2022, 03:20 AM

I can't find the clown emoji. This will have to do.

BennytheKid · 04-23-2022, 07:31 AM

(reposting from discord) You are making the vast assumption that everyone at OOTPD is a perfect team developer and they don't have separate roles to do. From what I gather this is extremely false. It sounded like that a decision came down from upstairs to switch server providers pretty late into development and from what I've seen that's been most of the problems.

Perfect team may be the game FOR YOU, but it is certainly not THE GAME, it is part of it. Perfect team does not function without the base engine which was in dire need of updates. I've talked with a ton of people who were so tired of 22 and would only by 23 with new features.

I think we all need to not be armchair developers for a change, (especially a change for me) and realize there are 15ish real people working their buns off to give us a game they love as much as we do. Talk to any of these guys and learn they do what they do because they love it. I certainly made that mistake two years ago, I'd urge you not to make it yourself.

skepskepskep · 04-23-2022, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ty Cobb

Ever notice most of the whiners have about 3, maybe 4 posts to their credit, and no skin in the game for length of service? I'm not even one of the longer players and I've been around since 6.5

To call my quote whining is so disrespectful to the time and care I put into the words used. I'm also an affiliate streamer, literally promoting the product on an official level. I am the most active member of the Perfect Team community on Twitch, often streaming 5 days a week.

I've played the game (Perfect Team) since 20 released and bought back to 19. The game you are talking about is the game of the past and I don't care about it at all. I am the present and the future and you'll have to get used to this and understand that it is best for your game too that this be the reality.

skepskepskep · 04-23-2022, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BennytheKid

Perfect team may be the game FOR YOU, but it is certainly not THE GAME, it is part of it. Perfect team does not function without the base engine which was in dire need of updates. I've talked with a ton of people who were so tired of 22 and would only by 23 with new features.

Perfect Team is the game. This is not my opinion, it is an intelligent, honest take on reality. If you'll go back and reread my original post like a dozen times, perhaps the wisdom of it will start to reach you.

The base engine needed literally no change. You could ride that baby for a decade.

The people you talk to, AGAIN, are the people that aren't actually relevant to the concerns of the future of this game. They represent the core niche base that will BUY THE GAME ANYWAYS.

There was ONE thing that needed to happen this year, and that was Perfect Team up and running in late March. Literally nothing else matters if you can't accomplish this. If they need to restructure their development team to focus appropriately on Perfect Team, well, then that's what they need to do.

skepskepskep · 04-23-2022, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mat

I can't find the clown emoji. This will have to do.

I bet you love pants.

BennytheKid · 04-23-2022, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skepskepskep

Perfect Team is the game. This is not my opinion, it is an intelligent, honest take on reality. If you'll go back and reread my original post like a dozen times, perhaps the wisdom of it will start to reach you.

The base engine needed literally no change. You could ride that baby for a decade.

The people you talk to, AGAIN, are the people that aren't actually relevant to the concerns of the future of this game. They represent the core niche base that will BUY THE GAME ANYWAYS.

There was ONE thing that needed to happen this year, and that was Perfect Team up and running in late March. Literally nothing else matters if you can't accomplish this. If they need to restructure their development team to focus appropriately on Perfect Team, well, then that's what they need to do.

You realize I'm Kidnies and if you think I don't talk to relevant people that's pretty disrespectful.

Perfect team is built off a good base game engine that was solved by the community and desperately needed updates.

But again you're glossing over the fact that this server change probably wasn't their choice in the first place and again seems to be most of the problem.

Chimaera · 04-23-2022, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skepskepskep

Perfect Team is the game. This is not my opinion, it is an intelligent, honest take on reality. If you'll go back and reread my original post like a dozen times, perhaps the wisdom of it will start to reach you.

You come across as such an arrogant prick in this thread that even the most diehard PT defenders are challenging your thesis.

The fact you also didn’t think the game engine needed major work after PT22 also makes your entire argument ignorable. What game were you playing last year? You wouldn’t make such an ignorant statement, and double down on it, if you had the slightest bit of knowledge of playing PT at a high level.

skepskepskep · 04-23-2022, 08:31 AM

Kidnies, you gotta go back and reread my comments because I've already addressed your response.

Saying the engine is fine means more specifically that the PRIORITY for "fixing" the engine is well behind the priority of having PT live on release.

Sweed · 04-23-2022, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skepskepskep

Kidnies, you gotta go back and reread my comments because I've already addressed your response.

Saying the engine is fine means more specifically that the PRIORITY for "fixing" the engine is well behind the priority of having PT live on release.

As is should be

You really should just PM Markus so you can get him up to speed.

That voice you're hearing in the background is your Mom calling you to breakfast. Be a good boy and run along.

Mat · 04-23-2022, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skepskepskep

To call my quote whining is so disrespectful to the time and care I put into the words used. I'm also an affiliate streamer, literally promoting the product on an official level. I am the most active member of the Perfect Team community on Twitch, often streaming 5 days a week.

Is this your main income?? streaming?

skepskepskep · 04-23-2022, 08:36 AM

Of course not. I'm comfortably semi-retired after a career as a professional poker player.

04-22-2022, 11:44 PM	#1
skepskepskep Banned Join Date: Apr 2022 Posts: 17 Infractions: 0/1 (4)	Design philosophies and the non-release of OOTP 23 I respect and admire the history of OOTP as an offline baseball simulation tool. In the past few years (really since tournaments were released) the game has become something more than what it once was. No longer a simulation game with an online perfect team mode, this is a perfect team game with an offline simulation mode. That must be understood to make the proper design decisions in how you allot your time. I realize many will disagree with me here, but they represent the core niche base of the game with very, very little upside for growth. All your growth potential is in the perfect team market, pulling players from The Show and Madden that want to play perfect team in a strategy-based setting as opposed to an action one. With the live head to head championships and the pyramid qualification structure running through leaderboards and special events, you've laid the basis for this becoming an esport some years down the road. That's the direction you need to be going and where your design focus needs to be. If you were to write down a list of 100 things you need to accomplish by late March to have a successful release, perhaps the first 87 things on that list should be "PT live and functioning the hour of release". I went over the list of changes in the new game and I would be thrilled to trade almost all of it for a working PT. You could literally just resell me OOTP 22 with new cards and tournament leaderboards and I'd be thrilled to buy it. I wonder how much time was wasted on these window dressings that could have been dedicated to core stability testing. You redid the engine...why? It wasn't really broken but it is now. You redid the auction house...why? All I wanted was to filter out cards I own and search by mission. I certainly don't care about pants, I'd get rid of uniforms, logos, facegen, any of that nonsense that slows the game down (those logos take forever to load). The ONLY thing that matters is the numbers flying into each other on time and consistently. You start with that and build from there, but if you don't have that, you don't have anything. The Show had their stress test weeks out, and it should be obvious now why they took that approach. Why not have two or three stress tests across a variety of builds? Speaking of builds, I've played past betas, this looks more like an alpha build...so I have no confidence we'll actually see the game release anytime soon. It could be weeks or even months given the state of things. This wasn't a game release, this was a patch to the offline mode that people paid full price for. Perfect team is the game and I'm still waiting for the game to release.

04-22-2022, 11:57 PM	#2
AESP_pres Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Province of Quebec Posts: 4,029	" I certainly don't care about pants, I'd get rid of uniforms, logos, facegen, any of that nonsense that slows the game down (those logos take forever to load)."... Good for you but most do... by the way what kind of old computer you play on if this slow down your computer. My old computer with Windows XP run the game fine and I just use it because I have an old version of FG Modeller on it... that computer must be more than 15 years old. __________________ The FGs I did for the Universe Facegen pack if you don't want to download the complete file everytime the pack is updated. The complete set (1871 to 1978) Just the update.

04-23-2022, 12:19 AM	#4
Fabtron7 All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2020 Posts: 1,031	I for one embrace this new pantsless world, and bow down to our bare legged overlords! No more pants! __________________

04-23-2022, 01:01 AM	#6
Ty Cobb Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Grayling, MI Posts: 4,575	Ever notice most of the whiners have about 3, maybe 4 posts to their credit, and no skin in the game for length of service? I'm not even one of the longer players and I've been around since 6.5. Reference point: skep hives are illegal. There are two apiaries within a mile and a half of my cabin on the West Shore (not the West coast). __________________ "You could not live with your own failure. Where did that bring you? Back to me." Thanos

04-23-2022, 03:00 AM	#8
84Cubs Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Mar 2020 Posts: 242	So we have to have less because you have a slow computer? Also, if you want to complain about PT not being ready please go here: https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...lay.php?f=4029 Last edited by 84Cubs; 04-23-2022 at 03:04 AM.

04-23-2022, 12:13 AM	#3
skepskepskep Banned Join Date: Apr 2022 Posts: 17 Infractions: 0/1 (4)	Those that care about pants are the same core niche group I refer to that will buy the game every year or every few years because they are very loyal. I'm not saying your priorities are wrong, I'm saying they are not relevant to the best interests of the game going forward. For the game to get to the next level and make much more $$$ (which benefits the offline sim mode in the long term), Perfect Team is the vehicle and the offline simulation mode needs to be an afterthought in comparison. If you play Perfect Team tournaments, you're very familiar with waiting for team logos to load and it has nothing to do with the quality of my computer.

04-23-2022, 12:19 AM	#5
Sweed Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 6,608	Maybe just leave it to Markus? I think he's been doing ok on his own.

04-23-2022, 02:44 AM	#7
Raniel3 Bat Boy Join Date: Sep 2019 Posts: 16	I don't care about Perfect Team at all. I care about simulating real-life baseball and not some childish card collection stuff.

04-23-2022, 03:20 AM	#10
Mat All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Australia Posts: 652	I can't find the clown emoji. This will have to do.

04-23-2022, 07:31 AM	#11
BennytheKid Banned Join Date: Jun 2019 Posts: 45	(reposting from discord) You are making the vast assumption that everyone at OOTPD is a perfect team developer and they don't have separate roles to do. From what I gather this is extremely false. It sounded like that a decision came down from upstairs to switch server providers pretty late into development and from what I've seen that's been most of the problems. Perfect team may be the game FOR YOU, but it is certainly not THE GAME, it is part of it. Perfect team does not function without the base engine which was in dire need of updates. I've talked with a ton of people who were so tired of 22 and would only by 23 with new features. I think we all need to not be armchair developers for a change, (especially a change for me) and realize there are 15ish real people working their buns off to give us a game they love as much as we do. Talk to any of these guys and learn they do what they do because they love it. I certainly made that mistake two years ago, I'd urge you not to make it yourself.

04-23-2022, 08:31 AM	#17
skepskepskep Banned Join Date: Apr 2022 Posts: 17 Infractions: 0/1 (4)	Kidnies, you gotta go back and reread my comments because I've already addressed your response. Saying the engine is fine means more specifically that the PRIORITY for "fixing" the engine is well behind the priority of having PT live on release.

04-23-2022, 08:36 AM	#20
skepskepskep Banned Join Date: Apr 2022 Posts: 17 Infractions: 0/1 (4)	Of course not. I'm comfortably semi-retired after a career as a professional poker player.