Starters in the pen. Again.

[halfbutt]

So I'm still seeing teams with an entire pitching staff of starters, aces in the bullpen if you will.

I understand starters are not able to pitch on consecutive days, but, I ask again since I'm still new here. Are we OK with this?

I get the starter in the long man role but its starting to look like an exploit to me.

Am I silly to care about this? Should I also be collecting aces to pitch middle relief?

[Rain King]

Pitchers are pitchers. What does it matter what role they are being used at?

To me, this is similar to complaining about someone hitting Ricky Henderson 9th when in real life he was a leadoff hitter.

[Threnodas]

Originally Posted by halfbutt

Should I also be collecting aces to pitch middle relief?

Yes.

If the Yankees, Red Sox, or Dodgers had the six most dominant starters in MLB, you don't think one of them would pitch out of the bullpen? This isn't like fielders playing the wrong positions. Starters who can pitch innings 1-9 can also pitch innings 6-9. I'm very glad that starters in the bullpen are now constrained to reliever-like usage patterns. I don't think we need to prevent the very realistic, historical practice of 6th-best starters going to the bullpen just because the aces in PT were too good to be relievers in real life.

[stl jason]

depending on your theme, relievers/closers could be hard to come by.....

and not like there haven't been examples of it in real life.... Eck was a starter before a closer.... Smoltz was a starter, then became a closer.... Wainwright went the other route and was a relilever/closer for the Cards during their 2006 championship run before sliding into a starter role the next season....

[bailey]

In game terms, there still seems to be an advantage for your relievers to possess high stamina. If moving a starter to the pen gives a stuff boost, shouldn't it also come with a stamina hit? If nothing else, the perception would be better.

[halfbutt]

I'm not talking about having my sixth starter coming out of the pen. I agree with that practice, and have a starter or two as long relievers in the pen myself.

I'm talking about when your bullpen consists of Strasburg, Blyleven, Lyons, Guzman, Plank, Mussina, and Wainwright.

Is there a lack of effective relievers in the game at present?

Also, Having Rickey batting ninth to me is almost as good as having him bat leadoff. I mean, if I had another leadoff hitter who had a better OBP than Rickey, I'd probably bat Rickey 9 too. I don't think that is a similar comparison at all. Now if you had nine Rickeys all over the field, and they all played great defence at all the other positions, that to me would be a similar comparison.

Anyway, I'm not really trying to complain here, I'm just trying to understand. I thought one or two starters in the pen was OK but that it would be a disadvantage to have more. Now I am seeing a lot of the front running teams with bullpens full of aces. If this is what I should be doing, then great.

[Grizzlegom]

Originally Posted by halfbutt

Is there a lack of effective relievers in the game at present?

Yes. Only 4 live relievers are Diamonds (Edwin Diaz, Ken Giles, Aroldis Chapman, Josh Hader). Historic relievers are gonna cost you 10K at least per reliever.

[Rain King]

I don't understand at all why anyone would think it would be a disadvantage to have a bullpen full of great starting pitchers. Great starting pitchers are great pitchers. Do you not think that Strasburg, Blyleven, Lyons, Guzman, Plank, Mussina, and Wainwright would/should be successful pitching out of the bullpen?

[neugey]

I think the market is influencing things. 80+ non-Live relievers are slim pickings on the Auction House, at least compared to non-Live starters. I'm not sure that the actual supply of good SP's over RP's is that much greater (when I first saw the OOTP21 card list, seemed like the game has lots of good RP's), but it's that more people are electing to hang on to the good relievers that do get pulled, I believe.

[Grizzlegom]

In addition to the Live SP/RP gap, there's also only one diamond reliever among the live collection missions while there are 8 SP. A LOT easier to load up on aces.

[chazzycat]

I think the change to stamina was enough so that it's not a huge advantage anymore. SP can still pitch 100 innings in the stopper role, but not 140 like last year. The main reason you see so many is mostly a matter of supply & demand, IMO. Particularly with regards to the live collection rewards, which are just incredible values at their current prices. Like Grizzlegom said, all of those rewards are SP with just 1 RP, so you might as well fill your rotation AND bullpen with those guys at low cost.

[halfbutt]

Originally Posted by Rain King

I don't understand at all why anyone would think it would be a disadvantage to have a bullpen full of great starting pitchers. Great starting pitchers are great pitchers. Do you not think that Strasburg, Blyleven, Lyons, Guzman, Plank, Mussina, and Wainwright would/should be successful pitching out of the bullpen?

I am just repeating what more senior members of the community replied when I first brought this subject up.

It was suggested that in previous years, this had been a meta and that this year, efforts had been made to balance it by removing the converted starter's ability to pitch on consecutive days.

Obviously great pitchers are great pitchers. To me, it is just an area where the game is the game and departs from the simulation aspect of things.

Why differentiate between closers, relievers and starters in the game at all?

[Kushiel]

If Casey Stengel could have used the pitchers available to managers in PT, he would have. That is realism enough for me.

[BigRed75]

Of all the things to worry about, this is pretty low down on the list for me.

If one of my diamond starters is stinking up the joint, it's down to the bullpen for him. Lyons, Wainwright, Johnson and even Maddux have all spent time in the pen for me this season.

Additionally, with my theme team, starting pitchers with good stuff ratings but suspect control/movement have been purchased with an eye toward using them in the bullpen exclusively because I simply don't trust them to pitch more than a couple of innings at a time for me.

There has been a "stamina hit" implemented, even if it doesn't display on the ratings screen like the stuff boost. That fixed the "problem" from PT20 in my eyes (although I didn't really think it was a problem anyway)

Originally Posted by halfbutt

Are we OK with this?

Looks like the answer from the community is a resounding yes.

[halfbutt]

A starter spending time in the bullpen when struggling is nothing new. That is another thing entirely.

Thanks for all the replies.

Personally, I'm going to keep to my practise of using predominantly relievers and closers in the bullpen. I doubt anyone is going to be threatened by my two silver starters that are now long guys.

[Bunktown Ballers]

Originally Posted by halfbutt

So I'm still seeing teams with an entire pitching staff of starters, aces in the bullpen if you will.

I understand starters are not able to pitch on consecutive days, but, I ask again since I'm still new here. Are we OK with this?

I get the starter in the long man role but its starting to look like an exploit to me.

Am I silly to care about this? Should I also be collecting aces to pitch middle relief?

It matters to a bunch of folks but the tradition on baseball don't exist in PT play. Just like Wade Bogss being a GOLD GLOVE at 2b or SS. Or Aparicio Gold Glove at 3rd. If it feels like exploiting to you it's bc it is.But it just a game as some say. I often play teams where none of the infielders are playing their original position with some having never in their those positions in their REAL career. But don't matter bc it's only a Faux baseball game

[Bunktown Ballers]

Originally Posted by BigRed75

Of all the things to worry about, this is pretty low down on the list for me.

If one of my diamond starters is stinking up the joint, it's down to the bullpen for him. Lyons, Wainwright, Johnson and even Maddux have all spent time in the pen for me this season.

Additionally, with my theme team, starting pitchers with good stuff ratings but suspect control/movement have been purchased with an eye toward using them in the bullpen exclusively because I simply don't trust them to pitch more than a couple of innings at a time for me.

There has been a "stamina hit" implemented, even if it doesn't display on the ratings screen like the stuff boost. That fixed the "problem" from PT20 in my eyes (although I didn't really think it was a problem anyway)



Looks like the answer from the community is a resounding yes.

But Using Perfect Walter Johnsons or Perfect CY Younds as closers OK?

[halfbutt]

Originally Posted by Bunktown Ballers

It matters to a bunch of folks but the tradition on baseball don't exist in PT play. Just like Wade Bogss being a GOLD GLOVE at 2b or SS. Or Aparicio Gold Glove at 3rd. If it feels like exploiting to you it's bc it is.But it just a game as some say. I often play teams where none of the infielders are playing their original position with some having never in their those positions in their REAL career. But don't matter bc it's only a Faux baseball game

I appreciate your point of view, Bunk. Thanks for that.

I think training of position players is a pretty cool aspect of the game, but I try to stick to positions the player actually has played, or could very well play as their career progresses logically.

As you point out it IS just a game, and people can enjoy in the way that they choose, but I am glad you agree it is an exploit.

Lastly, yes, maybe Casey Stengel would have used all the ace starters available for his pen if he could have. It is interesting to also ask, would all those aces have been happy to give up their roles as aces and starters?

-Just goofing around.

[Syd Thrift]

IME starters underperform their ratings when you put them into the bullpen. This is actually an OOTP thing: for the most part, if you relegate a guy like Zack Greinke to the 'pen, the game will only look at his top 2 or 3 pitches to figure out his Stuff. Since Greinke throws 6 pitches pretty well but none on the level of a Mariano Rivera cutter or Randy Johnson slider, he's going to have a pretty middling Stuff rating.

That being said, that's an argument for using a silver starter instead of a mid-tier gold reliever. That's not an argument for using a bronze reliever over a diamond starter. Look at a guy's top 2 pitches; if they're better than the reliever's you're thinking of, he's almost certainly going to have a higher Stuff rating. And Movement and Control will remain the same.

[funseeker]

When I'm in a league that has 6 Mike Trouts, it reminds me that I'm playing a baseball simulation game. Use your players as you choose to within the context of the rules. Anyway, that's good enough for me.