Any Word About OOTP14 Features?

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

I don't see how discussing what form any future graphics should take is an issue.

/facepalm

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

I don't see how discussing what form any future graphics should take is an issue.

I'm reposting this because it seems that you didn't read it for comprehension:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Regarding animated 2D/3D graphics:

This will definitely be in OOTP some day. Why? Because I want it to be! It's been a dream of mine since I started coding the game. However, there are a couple of issues with it:

1) I wouldn't want to do it half-assed. I would want the player positioning and movement to be right (I am not talking the looks here, but rather where players move depending on situation/ball location etc.), and this is something not even action games like The Show get right all the time, despite them having multi-million Dollar budgets and ten times more people than we do.
2) Since we could never compete with PS3 graphics, we'd have to find a representation that would still look good without looking cheap / outdated. And that is a pretty tough task.
3) The 2D/3D engine would have to be very fast, because it would have to be used to simulate games as well, otherwise we'd have two different engines inside the game, which is something I would hate.

This all means that it is a LOT of work. And since we cannot afford to hire more people (unless you tell all your friends to buy OOTP 14), it's something that will not happen in the near future. But it will, someday.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

I'm reposting this because it seems that you didn't read it for comprehension:

That doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't talk about it. Essentially you're saying that you don't us to mention it any more because you don't want to read about it.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

That doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't talk about it. Essentially you're saying that you don't us to mention it any more because you don't want to read about it.

No, I'm telling that Markus has settled the issue. Obviously this is not getting through somehow.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

No, I'm telling that Markus has settled the issue. Obviously this is not getting through somehow.

The fact that Markus has settled the issue doesn't, and shouldn't, stop people from posting about it, even if you think that doing so is pointless.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

The fact that Markus has settled the issue doesn't, and shouldn't, stop people from posting about it, even if you think that doing so is pointless.

It no longer matters what you, I, or any of the rest of us think about graphics. We've got The Word. We know what the deal is.

But what the heck, be as pointless as you want to be. Why spend time on things that you might actually affect, anyway?

[Rich Tiger Fan]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

We've argued it and polled it and argued it some more and, yes, it really is a very vocal minority. But the important thing is that none of our opinions on this subject matter any more because Markus has spoken. It's time to discuss other subjects.

Wolf,

This is all in how you word it, yes I'll agree that there is a very vocal minority of users who will "only" purchase OOTP if it has graphics. I wouldn't even say they are "very vocal" even, just a minority.

However I disagree that the users that would like to have graphics is a minority. I would venture a guess that at the very least it is a 50/50 split.

I've always thought that one of the issues OOTP suffered from was trying to put to many small features that only appeal to a few of the more long time vocal members of the boards rather than putting in features that would have mass appeal such as graphics.

Thanks,

[The Wolf]

Rich:

Clearly Markus agrees with you.

[rpriske]

Don't feed the troll.

[BusterKing]

Wolf, I just don't understand the need that you seem to have to control every thread.

Just let others do the talking sometimes, sit back & relax dear God.

[Matt Arnold]

Originally Posted by forgivy

Markus, Something I would really like to see is pitcher stamina being able to be increased over the course of seasons. As it is now, it is virtually impossible to take a closer (ex. Aroldis Chapman) and make him into a starting pitcher due to the stamina ratings not changing as he would pitch more and more innings each year.

Player Development- As of now I think player development is almost spot on but one thing that I really seem to have always had a problem with is AAA starting pitching. Usually no matter how good or how high the potential of the pitcher is, when he gets to AAA, he along with all of my other pitchers in AAA have horrible ERA's. Every now and then there is an exception but it just seems much different from every other level. Also maybe I just suck at developing starting pitchers but it seems like 90% of starting pitchers are very good until double A and then they just go to AAA to die or they for the most part fizzle out unlike hitters. I almost give up on drafting pitchers in the first round of drafts due to the fact hitters seem like so much more of sure things. I could be doing something wrong but I have had this problem for years.

Player Scouting- In the draft, any player with a possible 80 potential if you check the scouting report basically says they are going to be a future start. I get that there is a lot of great talent that does end up busting in real life, but what about some sure things like Bryce Harper or Stephen Strasburg? I would like to see some actual more realistic scouting reports on players in the draft. Just because the player has 80 potential doesn't mean it has to say he is going to be a future star. If that is the case there is way to many future stars. It should maybe be something like the top 5 picks would have different reports then the next 10-15 could be grouped together. Something of that sort, hopefully you get the idea.

Playing with Stats only leagues- This is something that i have never personally done but I think I am going to do it with the release of ootp14. One thing that I think could really make stat only leagues better and more popular would be simple reports on your main home page. For ex, you have your top prospects and it shows their stats, well why not have your top minor league hitters (according to their stats listed) to let you know those guys are ready for promotion instead of going by the arrows (which are for the most time inaccurate imo, or by having to go to your transaction page and thumb through every single player.

Top minor league systems- Is there any way to do it where it goes outside the top 100 prospects? Also just a question, how does the game determine the top 100 prospects because many of the times, the players osa ratings suck donkey balls.

I like some of the points. To expand on them:
-Stamina should have a current/potential rating, along with all the other pitcher ratings. However, that's one rating that should fluctuate A LOT every year, depending on usage. So maybe Chapman when he came up would be like a current 4/8 potential 6/8. Then after 2-3 years in the pen, he'd be down to a 2/8 or 3/8 current (same potential). But if you set him to SP in the off-season, and let him start through spring training, he'd be back up to like a 4/8 by the start of the season, then probably up to his peak potential after a year of starting. That would help some cases where a pitcher who had like 8/8 stamina but only 2 pitches suddenly develop a new pitch, and go from not pitching more than 60 innings a year suddenly pitching 200+
-On a similar note, I'd then like to see more pitchers with 3+ pitches. The vast majority of pitchers throw multiple pitches regularly. Even if most players bottom pitches aren't ranked too high, it would give a little more immersion, and make it a lot less of the "2 pitch = reliever, 3 pitch = starter" mentality which is annoying.
-For the player development, I'd definitely like to see more emphasis on "chance of reaching" their potential, in both the scouting description and in player morale page. I know currently players with low work ethic often don't succeed, but if there were more variables, and it layed it out more clearly. I'd love to have scouting reports like, "This is a can't miss prospect - he will be a star!" or "He has all the potential in the world, but I don't think he'll make it" or "He has great natural athletic skill, but a terrible work ethic" or "He may not be the most skilled player in the world, but gives it 110% every game"

[CBL-Commish]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Especially when you have something fancy like a 2D/3D stadium editor.

Originally Posted by Mr. Marlin

Did you just drop a hint here?????

That would be the greatest thing ever. I've been looking for that since I had to give up the Earl Weaver series. That would be worth the price of the new version by itself.

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by Charlie Hough

Bluenoser, change is ALWAYS necessary in business, marketing, and sales. And that's the part that a lot of posters on the forum don't understand: there are people producing this game who are making their living from the success or failure of OOTP products, and the growth of the company is vital to their livelihood and the company's continued financial solvency and profitability. They're never going to secure growth without change and innovation. It can't be done and never has been in any business endeavor.

Text sims do not sell as mass-market games. The only exception to this that I can recall is Football Manager, which has since successfully implemented graphics to rave reviews and many converts despite countless claims by the text sim loyalists that adding graphics would ruin the product or cause the gameplay to suffer. All others have ultimately failed despite brief success, or they remain simple, purely text-based sims that are doomed to remain in a small niche market that struggles for relevance and survival.

Exceptions like FM merely prove the general rule, which is that text sims are not major sellers, and a sim company's sales will never be able to grow beyond minimally sustainable levels without a major innovation like adding graphics to make the game more marketable.

Like you, I'm a fan of text sims as well as more sophisticated products like FM. I play both and do so happily. But I have been adamant about the addition of graphics to OOTP because there is a better business case for this change than any other that the company could entertain. If anyone doubts this, I will gladly take on the challenge, and with the cooperation of OOTP Developments, I will conduct the necessary market research with OOTP customers and non-customers to prove this with hard data on how graphics could potentially increase sales volume, revenue, market share, and new customer acquisition. This is a big part of what I do in running my business since my retirement from baseball

This is not even a point for debate or argument. There is no long-term, high-growth business case for text sims. And the name of the game is to produce a high quality product that consistently generates sales growth and helps the developers to re-invest, empower further growth, and do well for themselves in the process.

There is a reason than text sim makers like SOM, APBA, Diamond Mind, and DK Sports have to produce season disks and utility disks and nickle-and-dime their customer base for every dollar they can grab. It's the only thing that keeps those companies alive because purely text-based sims are a small, niche market. And barely staying alive is no way to live.

If you're in this to make a living and to run a highly successful business, you'd better damn well do better than those companies have done, which has often been to barely limp along and, in some cases, wade through bankruptcy, sell off assets, or sell out to other companies just to keep the brand alive.

I appreciate that Markus has had a much greater vision for his products, which is the reason why OOTP is superior to these other offerings in nearly every respect. It's also why OOTP Developments has actually innovated with new technologies and delivered a mobile product, which is unheard of among these other dinosaur-style outfits.

I'm glad that we'll be seeing graphics in the future but not for some purely selfish reason of my own personal enjoyment. I can live with OOTP either way, and I will continue to buy the product every year. But I want to see this happen for the sake of Markus, Andreas, everyone at OOTP Developments, and what this could do to help the game become a massive player like Football Manager. The added sales and market share will help OOTP Developments to hire more people and drive more improvements and innovations that all of us can enjoy.

OOTP Baseball has the opportunity to become the one-stop shop for EVERY simulation style and preferred method of playing a computer sports sim. And, this may come as a shock, but I'm a huge proponent of making the game simpler, more accessible, and more marketable to the hardcore replay simmers who play those other text sims. That audience needs to be addressed better than it has been, and I believe that working to make OOTP better in those areas is vital. It's critical to the path toward becoming nearly all things to all people when it comes to baseball games. It's already 80% of the way there!

So, in the end, this isn't about pissing matches, arguments, or disagreements. This is about helping to make this product the greatest computer baseball game that has ever been developed and to conquer the market in a way that gives us all a great product, helps OOTP Developments to thrive and give us more great products, and earn the development crew the profits and accolades that it deserves.

1. Change is NOT always necessary. Sometimes change is the worst thing you can do. There is a long, long, long, long, long, long, etc, etc, etc, list of businesses that made changes and then promptly went out of business because of those changes.

2. Talk about dramatizing things - every business in the world has people working there that make their living from what they do and their success depends on it. So what?

3. Maybe you haven't been playing OOTP for very long, or maybe you just never take the time to notice. OOTP has long, long, long, long, long, etc, etc, etc, been the best baseball sim on the market. Nothing even comes close to it.

4. Right, it's not about a pissing contest or debating or arguing, but yet every time someone says they're not interested in graphics you immediately assume they are "against" graphics. Try actually comprehending what you read. I have stated on many occasions, I am not "against" graphics. I have also stated I am not "interested" in graphics. So let me help you with that comprehension thing a little - being "against" something and being not "interested" in something are two completely different things. eg: I'm not interested in "MLB The Show" but I'm also not against it. It's just not the type of game that interests me.

5. I moved to OOTP way back in version 1 because it was a text based sim. It had what I found pleasing in a baseball game. When I wanted graphics I went and played HH. When I wanted to manage a baseball team, I played OOTP. I don't care for graphics, I don't need them. They are not what interests me in a game. That is the main reason I moved from HH to OOTP - so I could play a game that met my interests.

I realize in this day and age that it's extremely difficult for people to understand contentment. They always want bigger, better, faster, shinier, etc, etc. Not me, I'm very very happy with what I have. This game doesn't need a whole lot more. The past few years/versions, the requests have gone more and more toward eye candy and micro-management. The actual "game" of baseball gets less and less attention.

If Markus wants to add graphics, he will when he's ready. His game, his rules. I really don't want to get into the old argument of what should be focused on. I respect that others want the eye candy and micro management. Me, I just want to manage "baseball". I just want to see things like unearned and earned runs recorded properly. Stats tracked properly. These things are about "baseball" imo. Adding things like agents, owners, being able to build a stadium, being able to change the look and feel of the interface, game play pages, etc. Sure, those things are part of baseball, but in the background. For me, baseball is about what happens on the field, period. If a game focuses on those things, then a good game will be inevitable. If a game focuses on the eye candy, well then it won't be good imo. I look at the suggestion forum all the time, and for the past 3 - 4 years the amount of micro-management and eye candy requests is mind boggling when the core elements of "baseball" don't work properly.


Bottom line for me - go ahead, spend time on graphics and other eye candy. I'll move on from OOTP and find something else to play. The loss of one customer isn't going to bother Markus in the least. Adding graphics he should be able to get 1000's of new customers according to you, so no loss at all.


PS - save the "DUMB" - "You'd stop playing OOTP if they add graphics" question. I get that one all the time. Yes, I will stop playing/buying OOTP when the graphics come in.

Markus's game - his rules on how he develops it.

My money - my rules on where I spend it.

[SandMan]

It is about time that Markus considered having two games - one with the graphics for people that want it and play out their games and one without the overhead of the graphics for players that don't want the graphics or play simming the game. I think that the overhead of having the graphics in the game for people that sim the game will affect the speed that it takes to sim the game and is just not needed for some players.

This is just my opinion on this subject so I hope I don't get blasted for stating this opinion. I just don't think that I would benefit from the graphics and would hope that there was a version of the game that did not include them.

[D-BacksJosh]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

I look at the suggestion forum all the time, and for the past 3 - 4 years the amount of micro-management and eye candy requests is mind boggling when the core elements of "baseball" don't work properly.

Bluenoser, what are some of these 'core elements' that you speak of?

[MizzouRah]

I don't see any harm in discussing graphics, I like reading the comments - whether you want them or not.

To me, the game is very stable and has enough stats and what not, but I know some folks want more of that type of stuff.

I'll buy it no matter what, unless I lose my job. BUT - I do think it's time to discuss what we want out of a graphics module for the future of the product.

[OutfieldGrass]

As much as I love the quality of this game and the new features that are introduced each season I have always found the most beautiful part of this game is the fact that we all have a voice and the ability to express our opinions. Some feel the need to try and take that away. It only hurts the community.

If we apply this logic then why does anybody discuss any sort of sport and what direction their team should take. We can't change it. They will do what they please and we have no say. So why do it? Because that is our right as fans. Its fun. Its enjoyable to have an opinion and express that opinion. Even if that opinion will change nothing its still our right.

[Rich Tiger Fan]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

If Markus wants to add graphics, he will when he's ready. His game, his rules. I really don't want to get into the old argument of what should be focused on. I respect that others want the eye candy and micro management. Me, I just want to manage "baseball". I just want to see things like unearned and earned runs recorded properly. Stats tracked properly. These things are about "baseball" imo. Adding things like agents, owners, being able to build a stadium, being able to change the look and feel of the interface, game play pages, etc. Sure, those things are part of baseball, but in the background. For me, baseball is about what happens on the field, period. If a game focuses on those things, then a good game will be inevitable. If a game focuses on the eye candy, well then it won't be good imo. I look at the suggestion forum all the time, and for the past 3 - 4 years the amount of micro-management and eye candy requests is mind boggling when the core elements of "baseball" don't work properly.

Blue,

I think you have some good points here. Especially in the quoted above. Myself I am in the "want graphics" crowd for some of the same reasons you say you don't want to see them. I like you am sick of seeing the micro-management and eye candy request, however I believe like you say baseball is about what happens on the field and I would love to see it represented in some way visually and verbally.

Honestly right now the game has all the in depth stuff I think I can handle. Two things I would like to see would be a better job of portraying baseball on the field and with that I believe graphics. That's just me though.

[CBL-Commish]

Originally Posted by SandMan

It is about time that Markus considered having two games - one with the graphics for people that want it and play out their games and one without the overhead of the graphics for players that don't want the graphics or play simming the game. I think that the overhead of having the graphics in the game for people that sim the game will affect the speed that it takes to sim the game and is just not needed for some players.

This is just my opinion on this subject so I hope I don't get blasted for stating this opinion. I just don't think that I would benefit from the graphics and would hope that there was a version of the game that did not include them.

I'd assume that there would be one game with an option to use or not use the graphics portion. There would be a results engine in the background, and those results could be displayed with graphics+text, or just text.

The logistics of supporting two different games across three platforms would probably be more trouble than it's worth.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by Rich Tiger Fan

Blue,

I think you have some good points here. Especially in the quoted above. Myself I am in the "want graphics" crowd for some of the same reasons you say you don't want to see them. I like you am sick of seeing the micro-management and eye candy request, however I believe like you say baseball is about what happens on the field and I would love to see it represented in some way visually and verbally.

Honestly right now the game has all the in depth stuff I think I can handle. Two things I would like to see would be a better job of portraying baseball on the field and with that I believe graphics. That's just me though.

I think this game has the potential for a lot more depth.