No Fastball?

[Bucky36]

I have a pitcher with velocity 93-95, but does not have a fastball rating. Just a sinker and slider, is this normal??

[OakDragon]

A sinker is a type of fastball ("sinking fastball"), so I think it's supposed to be that way.

[Bucky36]

Originally Posted by OakDragon

A sinker is a type of fastball ("sinking fastball"), so I think it's supposed to be that way.

Great point, thanks man!!

[Curtis]

Thank you for bringing this up. First, yes, in Version 11 there are a fair number of pitchers created without a 'true' fastball. This is almost certainly not accurate in regards to modern MLB, but it is working as intended.

Second, when I was creating a fictional pitcher for a Version 10 dynasty, I was informed by posters on this board that the velocity numbers refer to what the velocity would be if the pitcher had a true fastball, not the speed of his actual fastest pitch.

Third, could someone please list which pitches are considered to be types of fastball? The splitter is, and according to OakDragon above, the sinker. (One magazine I subscribe to considers the sinker to be an extreme version of the two-seam fastball, while the four-seam is the only 'true' fastball'.) Are there any others?

[Syd Thrift]

The pitches which could be deemed a fastball in the game are:

Fastball (4-seamer)
Sinker (2-seamer)
Splitter (split-fingered fastball; like the 2-seamer only your fingers aren't so far apart)
Cutter (see: Mariano Rivera)

While pretty much everyone has one of those 4 pitches in the game, I think a lot of guys don't throw the 4-seam "rising" fastball much at all. In fact, one of the classic archetypes of the relief pitcher, one that was so popular in the 1970s, is of a guy who throws nothing but the sinker and the slider. This guy might throw from a weird angle (like sidearm, even) and have a pretty awful split, but he keeps the ball down and hitters (at least like-handed ones) who sit on the sinker will get punched out pretty easily by that slider breaking (in) on them.

It's worth pointing out that Mariano Rivera also doesn't really throw a 4-seamer. Actually, I think the only guys who really *do* throw that as a regular pitch for the most part are guys who throw really, really hard. If you hear a catcher or manager talk about how a guy throws a "heavy" fastball, chances are that guy throws the 2-seamer instead of the 4-seamer; the sinker breaks downward, hits the catcher's mitt at the heel of his hand and feels like a ton of bricks whereas the 4-seamer seems to break upward, hits the mitt around the fingertips, and feels as light as a feather.

[Curtis]

Thank you, Syd. I'm copying that down.

[tejdog1]

Vintage John Maine (2006/2007) threw a rising 4 seamer.

Mike Pelfrey when he's going right throws a "bowling ball" sinker.

Obviously the best example of a cut fastball is Mariano (I've heard Ralph Kiner call it a variation on the slider)

JJ Putz, Steve Trachsel are two examples of splitter pitchers. Not really sure how many there are out there.

[Syd Thrift]

Yeah, it's also worth pointing out that this idea of discrete pitches, while definitely true for pitcher to pitcher, is really just a taxonomical distinction when looking at an entire league. A guy like Sandy Koufax threw a fastball with a huge amount of "hop", while Andy Benes, who would be counted to throw the same pitch, had a ball that looked like a laser beam to hitters (that is, it emerged exactly where they thought it would at the plate). IIRC one of the criticisms leveled at Japanese pitchers has been that their fastballs, perhaps due to the insane amount of training they put into throwing and hitting, have little to no movement on them.

I imagine that in OOTP20 pitches will be graded in terms of their velocity, the direction and amount of break, how well the pitcher controls them, the angle the pitch comes from, and how well they disguise what's coming until it's out of their hand. There will probably be some sort of neural network that looks at things and says "okay, this is the fastest pitch this guy throws and it breaks downward. Therefore it's a sinker". Also, there'll be spandex jackets, one for everyone.

[Cryomaniac]

All this of course ignoring knuckleballers, who are a different kettle of fish altogether.

[Syd Thrift]

Although in fairness Charlie Hough, Tim Wakefield, and Phil Niekro all threw/throw a fastball, even if it's only as a "show-me" pitch.

One thing I would looove to see in this or a slightly-in-the-future version of the game is the ability to adjust the percentage of time a pitcher throws a given pitch. If you have a guy in your bullpen who throws 2 pitches really well and 3 not so well and you want to see how he might be used in a starting role, it'd be cool to sit him in long relief and tell him to throw everything he has in his arsenal, whereas a Kazuhiro Sasaki might be told to lay off everything but the 4-seamer and the splitter. I realize this also would probably turn into another thing the AI doesn't do particularly well, but baby steps, people.

Of course, that gets back into a feature request that abailey for one has been asking for for years: a virtual elimination of stamina, perhaps leaving a stamina ability which defines whether a pitcher can last 100 pitches before tiring or 120, but mostly "stamina" ought to be figured out by the number of different pitches a guy throws (with special dispensation given to knuckleballers, given that that is a pitch that you cannot ever adjust to).

[Curtis]

Originally Posted by tejdog1

JJ Putz, Steve Trachsel are two examples of splitter pitchers. Not really sure how many there are out there.

If you include 'were' out there, Kent Tekulve, maybe? Is a forkball a splitfinger by another name? Who else threw the forkball? Bruce Sutter? My memory is hazy.

[Syd Thrift]

Elroy Face was the original forkball specialist reliever guy. Sutter was one of the first guys to throw the splitter. Tekulve was a sidearmer and therefore a sinker/slider guy; I don't know what a forkball does when you throw it sidearm but probably nothing good.

A forkball is thrown, at least in its idealized, Platonic form, with the ball wedged between the index and middle fingers. The split-finger fastball has some separation between those fingers but not nearly as much. It's probably more of a continuum thing than an either/or thing.

[kq76]

I compiled the following list awhile ago from various sources on the net when I was trying to get my head around all the different type pitches. IIRC, not all sources agreed on every pitch so I wonder if any of you would argue that parts of it are flat out wrong.

Fastballs
*********

4-seam fastball - 89-91 mph - fastest straightest pitch; like most pitches it rotates from pitcher to bottom to batter to top (6-12 rotation) to go faster and keep it from breaking

2-seam fastball - 89-91 mph - fast, but tails away from the pitcher; 4-10 rotation*

sinker - tails away and down (like 2-seamer, but it sinks)*

cutter - cuts toward the pitcher (opposite of 2-seamer)

slider - 4-6 mph slower than fastball - cuts toward and down (like cutter, but it sinks); off-center rotation

splitter - 4-6 mph slower than fastball - fast, but drops deep late (like a sinker, but more break and may move)

Change-ups
**********

changeup - 7-11 mph slower than fastball - looks like a straight fastball, but takes longer to get to the plate

circle changeup - looks like a tailing fastball, but takes longer to get to the plate

forkball - varies, sometimes as fast as 84-86, but usually slower - slow, but lots of movement (like a splitter, but wider grip and is slower with more movement)

Breaking Balls
**************

curveball - 11-14 mph slower than fastball - breaks from very high to very low; rotates the opposite of most pitches from pitcher to top to batter to bottom so it breaks more and goes slower

slurve - looks fast like a slider, but ends up slow like a curveball; a curveball that cuts toward the pitcher

screwball - curveball that tails away from the pitcher

Others
******

knuckleball - 50s-70s - little to no spin which allows the wind to play with it (move it in any direction) by way of the seams

* as Syd pointed out, the 2-seamer and sinker are considered by many to be the same pitch

Here's one of the sources with a good graphic at the end. I also have saved the interesting pdf file that was once on the seattlepi site that wikipedia referenced, but it's too big to attach (if someone wants it, I'll upload it somewhere else).

[95Marinerschangedmylife]

I was a little late but as kq has pointed out with his post, a forkball is more of a changeup and splitter is still a fastball.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by tejdog1

Obviously the best example of a cut fastball is Mariano (I've heard Ralph Kiner call it a variation on the slider)

I always thought it was a fast slider. When you think of it now the number of pitchers who throw cutters today seem about the same as those who threw sliders prior to 1990 or so.

[Curtis]

I know terminology and slang change over time; do definitions also change?

I thought I remembered that back in the '70s a slider was considered a breaking ball that broke in the opposite direction of a curve, and a slurve was a fast curveball with not as much break. Maybe I'm misremembering.

[kq76]

Originally Posted by RchW

I always thought it was a fast slider. When you think of it now the number of pitchers who throw cutters today seem about the same as those who threw sliders prior to 1990 or so.

I think Syd made a good point when he said that the characteristics of pitches fall somewhere on different continuums. That is, some pitches are as fast as humanly possible, some (knuckles) are about as slow as you'd dare in the majors, and many fall somewhere in-between. The same goes for how much a ball breaks down or cuts in or tails away or moves erratically. In my list I chose to include sliders and splitters among fastballs and I've definitely seen some so-called experts do the same, but I've also seen the opposite. I suppose I could have made another category called "not quite fastballs" in which in addition to the slider and splitter I would have added the sinker (I prefer to make the small distinction between a 2-seamer and a sinker that the sinker sinks more and is therefore a little slower, just like I like to think that the slider sinks more and is a little slower than the cutter). You could remember them as the 3 Ss for slightly slower yet still fastballs.

I went back to the previous post and clarified the rotation info to the 4-seamer and curveball, which to me was very interesting, and added some mph info I had.

Originally Posted by Curtis

I know terminology and slang change over time; do definitions also change?

I thought I remembered that back in the '70s a slider was considered a breaking ball that broke in the opposite direction of a curve, and a slurve was a fast curveball with not as much break. Maybe I'm misremembering.

I thought the opposite was true when I was young (that a curve was a ball that moved left or right), but I now understand that while a curve may naturally cut toward the pitcher's opposite hand some, it's more just a pitch that breaks straight down.

I think it's safe to say meanwhile that while a slider also breaks downward, it doesn't break down as much as a curveball yet it does definitely cut in towards the pitcher and probably moreso than the natural cut of a curveball. It's also faster than a curve, but slower than a straight fastball. So I guess you can think of it as something between a cutter and a curve.

A breaking ball that tails away from a pitcher is definitely a screwball.

Your definition of a slurve doesn't sound too far off though as it's somewhere between a slider and curveball. Hence the portmanteau. From what I've read it sounds like the key point is that a slurve looks like a slider to the batter, but ends up more like a curveball thereby throwing him off timing and location-wise.

[Curtis]

Thank you for the clarification, kq76. I think you're safe on at least a couple of your assumptions; the original names of the cutter and and splitter were 'cut fastball' and 'split-fingered fastball'.

Edit: As the boys in the booth discussed during the Thursday doubleheader, there's a specialty category that includes such things as very slow knuckleballs, folly floaters and eephus pitches. What they seem to have in common is very low velocity — maybe down to as little as 40 mph — and high arcs.

Do you know anything about the knuckle curve, nickle curve and circle curve? (For as much as I know, they might all be the same thing.)

[kq76]

Originally Posted by Curtis

Do you know anything about the knuckle curve, nickle curve and circle curve? (For as much as I know, they might all be the same thing.)

No, I don't at all. I figured I was doing pretty good getting an understanding of the, say, second level of pitches. I figure the vast majority of baseball fans anywhere know what fastballs, changeups, and possibly even curveballs are, and I figured many of us here knew what sinkers, sliders, cutters, and forkballs were while I was pretty hazy on those. So, I just wanted to, as I thought, catch up to the rest of you here. That next level of pitches I figure very few really understand and so I'm okay with not knowing what they are either.

[andymac]

A knuckle-curve is just a 12-6 curve ball that is held a little differently. The spin/movement isn't really any different.

I'm not sure that I've ever heard of a nickle or circle curve. The circle changeup is quite popular and is described above.