Fla. International/Miami Brawl

[canadiancreed]

Originally Posted by Jordan

If it were baseball or hockey, we'd pretty much glorify this.

Actually hockey had a hard time getting rid of the effect that the 70's and early 80's had on the game with the thuggary. I dont' recall what the punishment is now for brawls like used to happen from the days of yore, but it's not in the best intrest of the teams to be doing.

So basically, you need to update that stereotype.

[Jordan]

Originally Posted by Fallschirmjager

If this was an isolated incident then perhaps you would have a point...

But its incident after incident after incident

There is a reason the school has the 'thug' image and for the most part it is well deserved.

Okay, fair, but besides this incident, what has the program done in the last five years, for example, to deserve this thug image?

[Jordan]

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

Actually hockey had a hard time getting rid of the effect that the 70's and early 80's had on the game with the thuggary. I dont' recall what the punishment is now for brawls like used to happen from the days of yore, but it's not in the best intrest of the teams to be doing.

So basically, you need to update that stereotype.

I will once everyone else does. The stereotype that the Miami team are a bunch of thugs these days is unwarranted

[marc]

Originally Posted by Jordan

I will once everyone else does. The stereotype that the Miami team are a bunch of thugs these days is unwarranted

Well a few months ago some Miami players were shot at outside a house. Normally I'd call them victims except for the fact that 2 of them for some reason had guns in their pockets and pulled them out and returned fire. Had they went back inside, loaded their guns, came back out, and returned fire I'd give them the benefit of the doubt but I think it's funny that they were just walking around outside with loaded guns.

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally Posted by Jordan

Okay, fair, but besides this incident, what has the program done in the last five years, for example, to deserve this thug image?

I think the ESPN story said this is their 4th incident in the last 7 games.
They had another one of these against LSU last year and one in 2004 vesus Louisville.
And then add in the once a month stories of one of their players arrested on drug or gun charges or slapping around his gf or another person in a night club.

All of that adds up to the most troubled school in all of college sports.

[Jeremy Weimer]

I'd probably walk around with some kind of protection too if I hung out in the areas that those players do. Miami isn't as nice and serene as people make it out to be. There's a huge drug movement and gang problem in that area. I'm not saying that gives the Miami players a right to start shooting at people but I'd probably carry some kind of protection too just incase.

Then again, no one is forcing them to hang out anywhere. So I guess in the end it still is there fault for being around those situations.

[marc]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Weimer

I'd probably walk around with some kind of protection too if I hung out in the areas that those players do. Miami isn't as nice and serene as people make it out to be. There's a huge drug movement and gang problem in that area. I'm not saying that gives the Miami players a right to start shooting at people but I'd probably carry some kind of protection too just incase.

Then again, no one is forcing them to hang out anywhere. So I guess in the end it still is there fault for being around those situations.

I believe it was at the house where the players lived together. This could just be wild speculation on my part, but my guess is that they were being shot at for a reason.

[canadiancreed]

Originally Posted by Jordan

I will once everyone else does. The stereotype that the Miami team are a bunch of thugs these days is unwarranted

NO the stereotype that I was refering too was that if this was in hockey, it'd be glorified. Since that's been dead for almost twenty years now (ok maybe fifteen), it's not an apt comparision.

[Jeremy Weimer]

Originally Posted by marc

I believe it was at the house where the players lived together. This could just be wild speculation on my part, but my guess is that they were being shot at for a reason.

Yeah, probably. I'm not really going to speculate as to why though because then I'll end up stereotyping.

[kq76]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Weimer

Way to read what you want to read. Where did I say anything about Clemson and Syracuse? It's not even the same situation so why do you keep bringing them up? I never said anything about giving anyone a slap on the wrist. I said THE PLAYER SHOULD BE PUNISHED AND RIGHTLY SO. The players that were involved deserved to be punished for acting like idiots and endangering others. The Miami football program and FIU football program as a whole don't deserve to be reprimanded though.

The coaches did the best they could to break up the mess and so did the referees. So because 10-15 refs and personnel couldn't contain 80+ players engaging in fighting activites that somehow means the schools should be punished? It's not the coaches faults the players were fighting. They didn't direct their players to start a brawl and take off their helmets and start swinging them.

It's not exact same situation, but from what I recall it is pretty similar. Their whole teams were punished, why not these? It sure looked to me like there were enough players involved to punish the entire teams. This was not 1 (or even 2 or 3 by the looks of it) player that went off. A bunch did.

The biggest problem I see is that previous teams were punished pretty severely (I'm thinking losing Bowl games hurts pretty bad) and yet teams are still doing it. I'm not even arguing that the punishments should be even more severe, I'm saying it should be close to the same, but I wouldn't argue with someone who said they should be more severe. This crap has to stop and it's not going to stop by saying, "oh, well, we'll just punish the few players involved." You punish the entire team and then everybody takes note that if you don't not only prevent yourself from getting involved but also prevent others from getting involved that you'll lose out too. These teams didn't take note so maybe losing Bowl games simply isn't enough. You sure as hell don't make the punishment less. This is not an individual sport. It's a team sport and when multiple players go off like this, the entire team needs to pay the consequences.

[Jordan]

I believe the gun thing back in August involved the same person stomping on Owls players, Brandon Meriweather.

[Jeremy Weimer]

So what would you suggest as a suitable punishment then? I already pointed out that FIU isn't going to make a bowl and probably won't in the next 5-10 years. So that punishment really isn't going to do them any good. Miami is a team that's on a downswing talent wise and performance wise. Taking them out of bowls will piss people off and maybe slightly hurt the schools image but they're not going to be playing in a major bowl anyways. So half the players probably won't even care or learn anything from it.

If you're going to punish the teams as a whole it has to be a punishment that's equal to both teams. Not something that's going to hurt one team worse than the other like bowl suspensions would.

I still don't think punishing the entire team for the actions of a handful of players is right, but if you feel that way then more power to you. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree in that regard. I honestly don't think punishing the entire team is fair or will really accomplish much anyways. You recruit players that are idiots and aggressive and don't know how to hold their hostile emotions in they're going to act out regardless of punishments set down in the past.

[Jordan]

It seems to me that the incidents over the last year have involved the same players, or at least players on this team. I just don't see how that is a good sample size since 1995, when people were calling for the death penalty due to all the actions of players from those teams.

[kq76]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Weimer

So what would you suggest as a suitable punishment then?

I honestly don't know. I was asking the question sincerely in my second post. I just don't think a single loss is enough and I think it would be difficult, if not impossible, to find any equal punishment for teams that are so different.

[marc]

Originally Posted by Jordan

It seems to me that the incidents over the last year have involved the same players, or at least players on this team. I just don't see how that is a good sample size since 1995, when people were calling for the death penalty due to all the actions of players from those teams.

Could be. If that's the case though, why does Coker allow these individuals to remain on the team?

[Jeremy Weimer]

Originally Posted by marc

Could be. If that's the case though, why does Coker allow these individuals to remain on the team?

This is probably going to come off as a dumb reason (and I'm not saying it's a good reason) but Meriweather is one of the best players they have, on either side of the ball. So Coker probably gives him a lot more leeway than he would a lot of other players. He's not going to cut his starting safety and one of the best players on his team unless he absolutely has to. Which will only be when the schools board starts calling for it or starts putting pressure on him to make a change.

[cinredsfan2000]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Weimer

Miami is a team that's on a downswing talent wise and performance wise.

I dont know if id go that far to say that. I think Coker isnt the right guy for the job never was. He was a good coordinator but hasnt been able to translate success with guys he's recruted remember he won the national championship w/Butch davis's guys . As far as the Downswing in talent & performance well these things go in cycle's ask any Long time Notre Dame fan or U.S.C fan . Just hasnt happened to miami in awhile .

[Jeremy Weimer]

I know it goes in cycles and Miami's is beginning to start. I'm sure they'll rebound (and I hope they do) in the next 5-10 years. They can't be on top forever as any college football fan knows. They enjoyed a long wave of success and now they're starting to fall down and stumble. So it's time for them to make some changes and maybe cutting the players that are perceived as thugs and are constantly getting in trouble would be a good start.

[cinredsfan2000]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Weimer

I know it goes in cycles and Miami's is beginning to start. I'm sure they'll rebound (and I hope they do) in the next 5-10 years. They can't be on top forever as any college football fan knows. They enjoyed a long wave of success and now they're starting to fall down and stumble. So it's time for them to make some changes and maybe cutting the players that are perceived as thugs and are constantly getting in trouble would be a good start.

Thought i read or heard somewhere that they (miami U)has toughend up there standards to hopefully eliminate some the perceived thugs and undesirables . Problem with that is you have 2 other national very powerful football programs right in your backyard competing for the same players. Not to mention most of the other Nat. powerhouse programs also. So your almost in a no win situation if you dont take a kid who might not be a model student/citizen . Just seems like miami gets more than there fair share for whatever reason .

[marc]

Originally Posted by cinredsfan2000

Thought i read or heard somewhere that they (miami U)has toughend up there standards to hopefully eliminate some the perceived thugs and undesirables . Problem with that is you have 2 other national very powerful football programs right in your backyard competing for the same players. Not to mention most of the other Nat. powerhouse programs also. So your almost in a no win situation if you dont take a kid who might not be a model student/citizen . Just seems like miami gets more than there fair share for whatever reason .

I never really buy into the whole "toughening standards" excuse. OSU has really raised their standards recently and their recruiting is better than ever.

Hell schools like Michigan do just fine.

Another thing to consider is that many of these "thugs" still have acceptable test scores, it's more character screening than it is academics. Miami signed Willie Williams 2 years ago despite 11 freaking arrests while in High School.