Fans of OOTP - eductate me...

[Marc Duffy]

on the H2H debate...

From what I can gather, it was a feature promised during development of OOTP6. It also appeared in reviews of the game

Can I ask what reviews you refer to? Were these reviews conducted by the OOTP Development team or were they independant reviews?

I'm interested, having read the post 6.5 announcement threads to see this HTH issue cropping up time after time. It appears some people believe they were cheated when they bought v6 and it wasnt in the game. There are some that claim they'll never blindly buy a version of OOTP again because of this

Was the v6 demo available to people on or around release time?

OOTP Community please educate me

(this is a constructive thread not a flame war so if you cannot post without ranting and raving please don't bother)

[Johnny Slick]

I never really cared about the HTH myself, so the fact that it was never implemented didn't bother me. That being said, I think everyone who buys games from small developers should always only buy games based on features that are actually in the game at the time. It's not that guys like Markus or Arlie Rahn or Gary Gorski are actively trying to defraud their buyers by promising stuff they don't intend to produce; it's just that these guys often have ideas about what they want to implement in games that they have to decide against or even remove because of unforseen problems.

I do think that v6 was bound to be controversial because so many of the changes came under the hood. To continue that metaphor, Markus kept the chassis of v5 pretty much intact while completely overhauling the engine. It was only inevitable that people would complain that the seats feel the same.

[Chappy]

I don't think any reviews ever covered head-to-head, unless they merely listed it as a feature.

A couple of facts I remember concerning the H2H issue:

- OOTP6 was the first version we could pre-order (at a discounted price, mind you). It was listed as a feature during this time, so people pre-ordered the game expecting it.

- At some point, Markus posted a poll - release OOTP without H2H on such and such date or 2 weeks later with H2H - people overwhelmingly and unsurprisingly wanted the game ASAP...

Was the v6 demo available to people on or around release time?

The above two points combined meant you could either shell out money immediately for the game and have faith that Markus could deliver a game with H2H, or wait and see if it ever made it in - but miss out on the discounted price. So, although I don't remember if there was a demo or not, it wouldn't have benefited people who wanted H2H and the discounted pre-order price.

I don't really care about head to head, but I do understand why some folks feel shorted.

[AngelinOF]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

OOTP 6 Release- possibility to speed up <hr style="color: rgb(170, 170, 170);" size="1"> <!-- / icon and title --> <!-- message --> OK, today I have been thinking about a possibility to get the game released sooner. The only real big feature that needs to be put in is the internet head-to-head mode. It is already 50% implemented, but I guess getting it done 100% and testing it properly will take 1 week.

So, the question is, I could leave this out of the initial release, and concentrate on it fully for the first big update, which usually is 2-3 weeks after release time.

What do you think, would you mind if I left this feature out of the initial release to get the game out sooner?

Taken from:
http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...864#post638864

Pretty much everyone who voted against did so because they felt if they did then HTH would never be released, seems like there was a history of this, certain or one certain feature in particular promised to be in the game but it never made it due to the difficulty in getting the code to work properly.

[Chappy]

Yep, that is the poll I was referring to.

[sporr]

In the end, H2H proved more difficult to implement properly than Markus had initially planned.

[Jordan]

it disappointed me greatly because I knew that .400 were notorious for that, but I thought Markus better than that (I still do, even though I'm heavily conflicted). I definitely regret voting yes on an early release on the aforementioned poll

[endgame]

H2H was never an issue with me, but aside from the many discussions and posts in the histories of this forum I don't recall the v6 release documentation (or pre-release) documentation ala web page ever including it as a feature - and I can't find that one.

But these two links, one purported to be a highlight from Markus of things to come - the other, I believe, after the release of 6 and from OOTPD - see last line on coming soon:

http://www.gamechronicles.com/qa/markus/body.htm

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/sports/ou...t_6101783.html

Again, I'm not trying to accomodate any issues of "sides" here, only trying to educate as requested and my info and interest was very limited.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Chappy

- OOTP6 was the first version we could pre-order (at a discounted price, mind you). It was listed as a feature during this time, so people pre-ordered the game expecting it.

I think that's the heart of it right there. Folks bought the game on pre-order under the assumption that H2H would be added later, since it was still being discussed as an actively planned and worked on feature. But then H2H never got added and they feel like they were "tricked" into buying the game (this assumes of course that H2H was THE single most important feature to them, and that without it they wouldn't have bought the game - I do wonder how many folks that argument would actually apply to).

[Anachronism]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

I think that's the heart of it right there. Folks bought the game on pre-order under the assumption that H2H would be added later, since it was still being discussed as an actively planned and worked on feature. But then H2H never got added and they feel like they were "tricked" into buying the game (this assumes of course that H2H was THE single most important feature to them, and that without it they wouldn't have bought the game - I do wonder how many folks that argument would actually apply to).

It should also be pointed out that originally when v6 was mentioned it was at full price. Many people complained and stated that they wanted a break on the price from v5 to v6. I can recall a few of the argument threads there. Instead, what Markus did was give a "pre-order" discount to satiate those people (I, however, had grown tired of the bantering and left the forums for awhile, completely missing the rebate period by the time I returned :P).

Up until that point, H2H was always a planned feature. Markus did eventually post that it was more work than he thought and he apologized for not implementing it as he wished.

And good point LGO... I know it might have been rough, but I wonder what would have happened if Markus had offered rebates to those people who unlicensed the games and had their registration numbers deactivated? Would many have taken him up on it? I tend to think that many continue to use H2H as a leverage point to try to obtain more concessions from Markus...

[Eugene Church]

I only play solo...not online...and am not interested in HTH.

It seems that some people wanted HTH and were irate when it never came to fruition.

Markus wanted to do it, but apparently ran into problems and couldn't solve them. He led many people to think it would be included.

If it had been my company, I would have offered refunds to the ones who had bad feelings about not getting HTH.

I don't think there would have been many refunds.

Most of us love the game too much to deprive ourselves of such a wonderful game.

My pet peeve has always been the fact that OOTPB has always been missing many routine, everyday play results. I have been asking for their inclusion since OOTP4. We are now at OOTP6 and they are still not included. It is bewildering to me why there are not in the game, but I still bought V4, V5 and V6...and will buy V6.5...and V7.

Prior to V7, Markus has never promised that he would include all the normal play results in a regular baseball game (he did say that it will be much improved in V7 and possibly in V6.5). I will still buy V7, even if he doesn't markedly improve the play results...but I would be supremely disappointed if he doesn't. It is sad when OOTPB has a baseball game where no one drops a throw, certain players never catch foul flies or drop foul flies or infield flies, there is never an error on a bunt and you can't steal with two strikes or steal home. I am not a programmer, but it seems that these types of things are not difficult to program and should have been in OOTP1.

I hope he will include them at least in V7...he has almost a year to do it.

I expect great things from V7 due to the length of time he will have to develop it...plus he has access to SI's wealth of knowledge and experience.

[Marc Duffy]

Thanks guys so far, good to hear some people talking sensibly

Do you see why it's important for us not to give you too much OOTP7 info so early. It leads to so many issues!

Markus is a passionate man about this game and this community, I hope none of you guys never forget that!

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

Thanks guys so far, good to hear some people talking sensibly

Do you see why it's important for us not to give you too much OOTP7 info so early. It leads to so many issues!

Markus is a passionate man about this game and this community, I hope none of you guys never forget that!

Well Marc, it's not a very popular policy but one I totally support and I hope you
stick with it. Too me it's just so much easier if you keep it under wraps and only comment when something is set in stone.

While you are here let me put in one more plug for elicense when the game is ready to release unless of course the disk version will be plentiful here in the U.S. By next spring I don't think I want to be waiting a week or two on the mailman, I'm going to need my fix sooner than that

[Tiger Fan]

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

Do you see why it's important for us not to give you too much OOTP7 info so early. It leads to so many issues!
Markus is a passionate man about this game and this community, I hope none of you guys never forget that!

While I understand why it is important now that you dont release the information early I think it is very sad that it has come to this. I think a lot of us old-timers on the board loved the fact that Markus would share ideas with us and ask for feedback in the early days and because of this I know a lot of us really felt like the game was 'our game' rather than just a product we buy.

With the greater success that OOTP has enjoyed through the years this community has grown but as good as that it is for Markus and for the development of OOTP it has the downside like the fallout from people who won't let the H2H issue go.

The result unfortunately is that while the game may improve through it's many versions, it now feels much more like a product I am buying and much less like a game we all play a role in helping shape and improve.

That being said, I am still really looking forward to what the future will hold for OOTP7, I just wish it felt more like the community was involved in the process.

[Marc Duffy]

Originally Posted by Sweed

Well Marc, it's not a very popular policy but one I totally support and I hope you
stick with it. Too me it's just so much easier if you keep it under wraps and only comment when something is set in stone.

While you are here let me put in one more plug for elicense when the game is ready to release unless of course the disk version will be plentiful here in the U.S. By next spring I don't think I want to be waiting a week or two on the mailman, I'm going to need my fix sooner than that

Dont worry, we've been talking with eLicense. We know exactly what they are about and the amount of good feedback in these forums

At the moment, there is a 'BUT' with them which they are aware of and hopefully by next spring this issue will be resolved

[Marc Duffy]

Originally Posted by Tiger Fan

While I understand why it is important now that you dont release the information early I think it is very sad that it has come to this. I think a lot of us old-timers on the board loved the fact that Markus would share ideas with us and ask for feedback in the early days and because of this I know a lot of us really felt like the game was 'our game' rather than just a product we buy.

With the greater success that OOTP has enjoyed through the years this community has grown but as good as that it is for Markus and for the development of OOTP it has the downside like the fallout from people who won't let the H2H issue go.

The result unfortunately is that while the game may improve through it's many versions, it now feels much more like a product I am buying and much less like a game we all play a role in helping shape and improve.

That being said, I am still really looking forward to what the future will hold for OOTP7, I just wish it felt more like the community was involved in the process.

Markus already knows what you guys want, I've seen his development lists.

Try our other titles, they'll show you that you'll still be buying a game, an it will be an addictive game at that.

To give you an example of this "blanket" approach on our Worldwide Soccer Manager title.

Game comes out
We hold an internal post mortem to discuss areas we did well, areas we did badly
We ask the fans for feedback and feature ideas
We hold an internal feature meeting to discuss the next version, from this schedules are drawn up
We develop some features....
We announce the new game and release an initial list of features
We have a blanket on talking about new stuff
We talk some more about features
We go into beta testing
We get more feedback

What your seeing isnt an inpersonal service, it's just that quite often our games hype themselves, they do not need us stoking the fire for 9 months

Markus will still be doing personal 'blogs' but a little later in the process. He's still locked up remember

[rem]

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

Do you see why it's important for us not to give you too much OOTP7 info so early. It leads to so many issues!

The comment (the poll) that Markus was quoted as making regarding H2H was less than two weeks before OOTP6 was released. I believe that beta copies were released with H2H included, but I could be mistaken on that point. I'd hope that this issue wasn't because the information was released too early.

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

From what I can gather, it was a feature promised during development of OOTP6. It also appeared in reviews of the game

Can I ask what reviews you refer to? Were these reviews conducted by the OOTP Development team or were they independant reviews?

H2H was listed, in OOTP documentation (i.e. the ootp web site's list of features), as a feature until March 21st, 2005. My recollection is that Markus didn't admit that it wouldn't make it in until around September 2004.

A lot of people have trivialized the "debate" over H2H by saying things like "I'd never use it, but I expect it on the principle" and others believe it to be nothing more than a dead horse which is only brought up when whinebags need something to vent about it.

Personally, H2H or no H2H was really a gamebreaker for me. I'm not going to pretend that I haven't gotten my money's worth but I'm really very disappointed in OOTP6. The two things that I was looking forward to the most were the improved roster management features and H2H. The improved roster management features really don't work that well, so most online leagues don't use them much and I don't use them solo. A lot of people like the new pitching system in OOTP6 and that's fine - but I personally don't care for it and would prefer the OOTP5 system. There's one big improvement and one small improvement from OOTP5 that I like, but that really amounts to nothing more than a patch - not even an expansion pack . The value that I've gotten from OOTP6 is mostly that it let me play online leagues but the majority of the heavy lifting in online leagues is done either by me or my online league commissioners - not the game or Markus.

My anger over H2H is not because I feel that Markus made a deliberate effort to cheat me but just frustration. I suppose that trivializes things further but hopefully it helps to explain why the H2H issue is a legitmate one. Basically, it's the thing I looked forward to the most from OOTP6 and it wasn't delivered.

[kq76]

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

Thanks guys so far, good to hear some people talking sensibly

Do you see why it's important for us not to give you too much OOTP7 info so early. It leads to so many issues!

Markus is a passionate man about this game and this community, I hope none of you guys never forget that!

I knew this was coming as soon as I saw your first post.

The problem is the advertisements, even after the game was released, said H2H was in it. We the customers had to even ask the OOTP people to take it out so that new customers would not see it.

The point that you seem to fail to realize is there is a difference between saying you are trying to put something in a game or at least would like to and saying it will be in it or already is. You can do the former, just not the latter.

I have to agree with TigerFan. It is seeming less and less like a community effort ever since SI got involved. Feedback is important. Without it, or at least as much as you could possibly get by giving us all more info, you will just be giving us what you think we want, not necessarily what we really want.

[Tiger Fan]

Marc
I can see how a professional organization like SI approaches the release of a product and as I mentioned above I am quite excited to see what OOTP7 will look like. I love the demo for EHM and if OOTP7 can be half as immersive an experience it will be outstanding.

I also realize that Markus and yourself will certainly still take into account feedback from us in deciding what direction to go with the game and I am not knocking SI's involvement at all.

I guess the easiest way to explain what I am trying to say is that early versions of OOTP felt like shopping at a little Mom and Pop corner store. I love the personal interest the shopkeeper has in me as a customer and in turn I feel like I have an impact on his business. He may not have everything I want but he will do his best to get it for me if I ask.

Now I fear OOTP has become like Wal-Mart, a huge chain with little personal interaction between the head of the company and its customers.

From a development, marketing and sales standpoint it will probably lead to a far better product then the Mom and Pop store could ever produce. And in the long run that is good, but there is something to be said for the way mom and pop stores did business.

Maybe I am just getting old. I feel like the old man sitting on the porch with his grandkids saying "I remember back in the day with OOTP3......

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

Do you see why it's important for us not to give you too much OOTP7 info so early. It leads to so many issues!

I think it only leads to issues for folks who haven't been around computer gaming long enough.

Considering that I bought my first computer game way back in 1988, I'm more than familiar with the ups and downs that happen during a game's development and its features, and the changes and revisions which can happen, and so forth. So that kind of stuff isnt an issue with me, since I know how much a part of business it can be.

I personally would rather have more info early on. It's a chance to perhaps help direct or focus the features which are being considered; sometimes we can see a potential problem or issue with a new feature that maybe the developer hasn't noticed because they're focused on all its parts and can't see the "big picture" so to speak.