CatoBase Changes

[Ben Music]

If you could rework the CatoBase, what changes/additions would you make?

A simple one would be the addition of the WHIP and Hold stats to the pitchers stat line and RC/27 to the hitters stat line.

What else would you add or change?

[canadiancreed]

I'd make it so it woudl call information for a DB, instead of generating five million html files. Hard drives everywhrer woudl rejoice.

That's the only thing off the top of my head

oh and something to generate files, yet not have it as an exe. very hard to "get under the hood" that way

[SandMan]

I would just love to have the current code and rewrite the program. The main issue with the current program is the amount of time it takes to create the html pages. It now takes me about 2 1/2 days to create pages on one of my older leagues.

I would make it into two separate programs. One for the web, that just creates web pages and another to be a stand alone program, an encyclopedia that has all the current page information but in table format plus and query tool to create your own data sets (with an option to create these as html pages - then have another utility merge these pages to your web pages). It would be a totally customizable CATOBASE. Also would like to see the program create pages on the fly rather than all at one time. Would like to have the database restructured to have career totals and winshares in a table rather than calculated - only to save time when creating html pages. Many ideas - not enough time to write this from scratch....Jeff Cato has put a lot of effort and time into this to get it to the point it is right now and the program is very good. I hope that he would continue this task but if not I hope someone else will or MAYBE OOTP7 will have this included....

[Ben Music]

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

I'd make it so it woudl call information for a DB, instead of generating five million html files. Hard drives everywhrer woudl rejoice.

Dynamically rendered html pages, is that what you were thinking?

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

oh and something to generate files, yet not have it as an exe. very hard to "get under the hood" that way

Do you mean this as a way to pull in the data or a way to browse the pages? Or both?

[jmel07]

Dynamically rendered html pages, is that what you were thinking?

So CATO isn't using one webform and just populating it with info from the Acess database it uses? I didn't know that.

I've never actually used Catobase in the HTML format, but I have used the info from the database to generate reports I created in ASP.net . . . I guess I figured that is how it was set up.

[SandMan]

Originally Posted by jmel07

So CATO isn't using one webform and just populating it with info from the Acess database it uses? I didn't know that.

I've never actually used Catobase in the HTML format, but I have used the info from the database to generate reports I created in ASP.net . . . I guess I figured that is how it was set up.

Basically it is a front end to do the following:

From the import button
1. Run CommishJoes exporters
2. Populate the data into the CATOBASE

From the create html button
3. Calculate winshares, leaderboards
4. Output all the html documents and rebuild indices and links.


The first part does not take to long to run and is suitable for people with database experience to get the data from the catobase - but this same data can just be pulled from the exporter files (I used this before CATOBASE came to be and actually put the data into my own MDB files). The second part is what is time consuming....creates thousands of pages and most are not viewed by the average user....

[canadiancreed]

that's the part that I was suggesting to change. the html generation when you coudl use a perl, php, asp, what have you to get teh information from the DB as opposed to the gerernation of so many files.

[Cardinal Rule]

Yes - ultimately that is my only real gripe with CatoBase is that it takes forever on my older PC to generate all those html files. If you dynamically generated a page when the user calls for it, it would take longer to access that page because you'd need to have a database call and page generation on demand, but it would take wayyyyy less time to run season-end process.

[kq76]

I'd want:

-the ability to add and remove stats everywhere
-way more financial info
-like you guys said, only create pages when needed

EDIT: Maybe only pages that are expected to be looked at a lot should be created initially.

[jmel07]

I'm assuming it wasn't designed originally with dynamic pages because you would need to have your site hosted somewhere where that was possible. Whether it be a PHP/ASP.NET/Other compatible provider.

[canadiancreed]

Originally Posted by jmel07

I'm assuming it wasn't designed originally with dynamic pages because you would need to have your site hosted somewhere where that was possible. Whether it be a PHP/ASP.NET/Other compatible provider.

WEll with Access you can have pages designed where the DB calls are embedded within the page. I'm not too familiar on it (since I loathe Access), but I've seen it done a few times before migrating to a true DB solution

[DaveHorn]

Would folks go through the trouble to install and use Catobase if they have to install a webserver, a processor (PHP/Perl/flava o' the week), and a real database? Even if it meant you no longer had to generate HTML and could just generate the pages on the fly?

I've always assumed that would be too much for the average joe ootp user. And they would shy away from even trying it or get in over their head real fast and it would not be as popular as oldschool Cato.

Do you guys think that is too presumptuous?

I ask for two reasons. First, the data is already in BOSI, Cato-like pages could be created dynamically with the data storied in the BOSI DB. Second, I've been considering carrying the Cato torch if Jeff doesn't come back. It would not be VB and it would not be Access. But I have been debating to go with a standard thick client windows app because I figured that would be the most accepted by the community. However, personally, I would rather create it using web-based technology. But I thought that would be a bit too much for most average OOTP users to swallow.

[SandMan]

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

that's the part that I was suggesting to change. the html generation when you coudl use a perl, php, asp, what have you to get teh information from the DB as opposed to the gerernation of so many files.

Yeah, I looked into this as well, but if you look at the tables you will see that a lot of the data created for the html pages is calculated in the VB program and not stored into tables and is recreated every season. It would be nice to have the database restructured so that other programs could just do a read/write operation rather than all the calcs and I/O that is currently being done with the current MDB file. Also, would like to see that if a page is not required to be changed that the program would not recreate every page as it currently does.


I was looking at maybe rewriting this program. I am a programmer but I do RPG on the AS/400, XML and DEC VAX C/COBOL for my REAL JOB as a consultant. But I did get my HTML/VB certification and have used Visual Studio to create programs at home and for other small businesses(Using C, Delphi, VB and COBOL). I have hinted on the board that I would love to get CATO's code and re-write this. I only wish I knew what the status of Jeff Cato was and if he is going to keep upgrading and maintaining the program. I hope so - but my gut tells me that he may not. I hope I am wrong...

[canadiancreed]

Would folks go through the trouble to install and use Catobase if they have to install a webserver, a processor (PHP/Perl/flava o' the week), and a real database? Even if it meant you no longer had to generate HTML and could just generate the pages on the fly?

Mysewlf I would but i'm crazy like that

I wonder if combining BOSI and CATO would be even possible, since I dont really knwo what the primary goal of BOSI is (never got it to work), are they that much different?

[jmel07]

It depends on how much trouble you have to go through to get set up. If the time up front means little time on the back end you might have more users willing to give it a go than you think.

I created something with Acess/ASP.NET that consists of about 7 webform pages and the db. Since I run XP-Pro I have this set up for my solo league. I know that I could also take it online for about $3-$5 per month (some place like Nevidia.com, etc etc) if I wanted to do that.

I'm not overly familiar with BOSI or Cato to be quite honest. Just some ramblings here . . .

[kq76]

Originally Posted by DaveHorn

Would folks go through the trouble to install and use Catobase if they have to install a webserver, a processor (PHP/Perl/flava o' the week), and a real database? Even if it meant you no longer had to generate HTML and could just generate the pages on the fly?

Yeah, that's the problem. For some people that's no problem at all, but for probably the majority of us we need something that is easy like CatoBase. The idea of BOSI is great, but if it's beyond your ability then it's useless.

Personally, what I would really really like to see is all the best from the OOTP reports, CatoBase and BOSI all rolled into one that could be on your own computer or on the web. I'm hoping OOTP7 will do that, but if not I sure hope one of you guys can do it.

One thing I was thinking the other day is what if OOTP only generated reports that their info had changed since the previous generation? I imagine there are plenty where nothing has changed so why re-generate, re-upload and re-download them? That's kind of like with CatoBase where there's no need to generate the pages until you've imported all the years.

[DaveHorn]

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

I wonder if combining BOSI and CATO would be even possible, since I dont really knwo what the primary goal of BOSI is (never got it to work), are they that much different?

They serve entirely different puposes, but using the BOSI database you can make a new front end that serves up historical data in the same form as CATO. So now you've got a front end to the DB uses to manage in-season league activities and see in-season stats and player development (BOSI) and you've got a completely separate front end that serves up cato-like historical data. I've added and other leagues have added historical reports already from their BOSI, but I haven't seen anyone do it to the extend that CATO does because it takes work and CATO already does such a wonderful job at it.

[jmel07]

I don't mean to steer this thread off topic by any means, and if someone just wants to throw a link out instead, but what exactly do you need to do to use BOSI?

I do think, though, that being able to just run a program and keep everything on one's computer is the main draw of Catobase. However, with that being said, if there was something like it hooked into BOSI. I'd probably figure out how to use it

[SandMan]

Originally Posted by DaveHorn

Would folks go through the trouble to install and use Catobase if they have to install a webserver, a processor (PHP/Perl/flava o' the week), and a real database? Even if it meant you no longer had to generate HTML and could just generate the pages on the fly?

I've always assumed that would be too much for the average joe ootp user. And they would shy away from even trying it or get in over their head real fast and it would not be as popular as oldschool Cato.

Do you guys think that is too presumptuous?

I ask for two reasons. First, the data is already in BOSI, Cato-like pages could be created dynamically with the data storied in the BOSI DB. Second, I've been considering carrying the Cato torch if Jeff doesn't come back. It would not be VB and it would not be Access. But I have been debating to go with a standard thick client windows app because I figured that would be the most accepted by the community. However, personally, I would rather create it using web-based technology. But I thought that would be a bit too much for most average OOTP users to swallow.

The average (non-programmer) user would be intimidated by setting up the server, processor and database - some find the current setup a little frustrating at times with the VB app. The user would have to have very little "hands-on" with the setup of any app to make it work for most. I was looking at a SQL7.0 and MSDE runtime setup with the main app written in C+.
Very little user intervention and will work for most people. Again I am no expert on the PC platform (VAX/ALPHA AS/400) but I have programmed for 20 years and feel that I could also offer my services for this program if needed.

[DaveHorn]

Originally Posted by kq76

Yeah, that's the problem. For some people that's no problem at all, but for probably the majority of us we need something that is easy like CatoBase. The idea of BOSI is great, but if it's beyond your ability then it's useless.

That's kind of what I thought. I figured a lot of folks who currently use CATO would be left in the dark because all that would be too overwhelming and they just might not even go down the path.

jmel07 brings up an entirely different problem for some people too. Many online leagues use CATO. Many of those leagues may not have the capabilities of using a processor and DB. They might just be bargain basement hosting plans that support nothing but static HTML. If CATO was remade to serve pages dynamically, they also be left in the dark, even if they were technically able to handle it, unless they upgraded their hosting plan.

These reasons alone were why I was considering something more along the lines of the current Catobase. That way it would be available to everyone who is already using it.

There is no way to get around the time it takes to create hundreds or even thousands of files, but it certainly can be improved using different technology and different methods. Many good ideas have been brought up on this forum recently i.e. make creating retired player pages optional or move the player rankings and HOF scores to another page, and make those pages optional and never recreate the retired player page again. Say it only takes an average of an hour to generate for a single season. Then that is all it should ever take unless the user wants to optionally recreate and/or recalculated retired player data.