is it possible to play ahead

waltwa · 01-05-2005, 02:33 PM

i recall reading a post a while back re players playing ahead in the game. i did not pay much attention but lately i have had some trades offered that did not make good sense. also i have had 2-3 occasions recently where immediately after the trade the player i received went down in ratings points.

i have tried to play ahead and have found that it can't be done without having the commissioner's password. i put a lot of time into 8 leagues and while it is only a game and a hobby i do like to feel that everyone is playing on a level field.

i do know that the commissioner can play ahead and actually recall an instance where the commish was caught doing it. i have to admit that if i had the chance to play ahead to get an advantage i wouldn't do it because actually what does it prove to have to cheat to win in a fun league. probably most everyone feels the same as i do but still the question remains.

1. if you play ahead does it give you an advantage in seeing how ratings will be affected. that is does the game tend to follow a similiar or exact path

2. besides the commissioner is it possible to play ahead without the commissioner giving out his password.

Steve T · 01-05-2005, 02:36 PM

1- The game is random. You can sim ahead one time, and the player will drop in ratings. You can sim ahead in the same league again, and the player may not drop in ratings.

2- You can not sim without having the Commish password.

dbacks · 01-05-2005, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waltwa

1. if you play ahead does it give you an advantage in seeing how ratings will be affected. that is does the game tend to follow a similiar or exact path

2. besides the commissioner is it possible to play ahead without the commissioner giving out his password.

1. In terms of overall ratings (not talent ratings), it could give you an idea as to how fast a rookie will develop, or how long it takes an old veteran to dwindle down. The game won't follow an exact path, but it will follow a similar path depending on the settings in league setup for player development.

Stats, though, is a different issue. You may play ahead and find a guy that hits .380, but when the commish sims, he may only hit .250 regardless of what his ratings are.

Playing ahead won't necessarily tell you how a player will perform, just how his overall ratings (not talent) might develop over time.

2. Not unless you find a way to hack it.

Randall · 01-07-2005, 08:21 AM

1) As the last 2 replies said, it can give you an idea of how players may develop, but it won't give you a 100% certainty...

2) It's quite easy to hack...

Ford Prefect · 01-07-2005, 08:51 AM

Maybe its easy to hack and maybe you can gain a edge by simming ahead but the taste in your Mouth would be bitter. And the Human Factor kicks in anyway, if i keep a Star Player out and the Comp plays him in your Sim ahead he suffer a career injury. Your Sim would be total different then the real Sim.

Thats my

waltwa · 01-07-2005, 11:57 AM

i actually am a little disturbed by the knowledge that it is easy to hack. i was in a league where by some screwup the commish was found to be playing ahead. apologies were made and the league continued. after 2-3 seasons the commish was playing at a .750 clip in a league with almost all solid owners. was he cheating? i don't know but the knowledge that he had played ahead in the past coupled with the w-l record eventually led me to drop out of the league.

assuming the commish doesn't cheat and i believe that is true in the overwhelming number of leagues- how would you go about making it difficult to hack into the league passwords or is it possible to do.

is this something that can be made more difficult to do by adding security to the game.

DaveHorn · 01-07-2005, 12:08 PM

We (players/GMs/commishioners) can't do anything to make the password more difficult to hack. We can only hope security is improved in OOTP7.

First, if you don't trust the commish, why do you bother? Just get out. Its not worth the grief.

Second, as a commish, I am always fearful someone might be trying to get a competitive edge by hacking the password and screwing up the competitive balance in my league. There are some ways where the password could give you an edge, espcially at certain times of the season. However, IMHO, simming ahead is not really one of them. And of all the things I worry about, simming ahead is the least of my concerns.

kq76 · 01-07-2005, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveHorn

of all the things I worry about, simming ahead is the least of my concerns.

I agree, and it cannot be stressed enough not to use any OOTP password for anything else.

EDIT: .. or at least not important things. But you all already knew that didn't you.

treedom · 01-07-2005, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveHorn

We (players/GMs/commishioners) can't do anything to make the password more difficult to hack. We can only hope security is improved in OOTP7.

Hopefully.

It would be great if the commish had the option of creating a the league file in online league mode that was somehow neutered, and distribute that to the owners. What I mean by neutered is it has none of the hidden ratings that players aren't supposed to see in it - this would mean none of the ratings that are set as hidden in the league settings for that particular league, as well as the ratings that are always hidden from the player (the ones you can only see by using the third-party utilities).

Because the hidden data never actually makes it out to the players, hacking the password or using any third-party utilities would be useless. This would make simming ahead impossible and it would also solve the problem with seeing ratings in a talent-only league.

Of course, none of this could stop the commish from cheating, but heck, what could?

waltwa · 01-07-2005, 03:16 PM

i am not sure exactly what the previous post is saying. do u mean that by hacking into the system you can discover hidden ratings for each player that tell you exactly how he will develop or at least give you a good idea and that it is really not necessary to play ahead.

treedom · 01-07-2005, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waltwa

i am not sure exactly what the previous post is saying. do u mean that by hacking into the system you can discover hidden ratings for each player that tell you exactly how he will develop or at least give you a good idea and that it is really not necessary to play ahead.

Well, it depends...if the league is set up with all 1-100 ratings and talents, then you won't get much (though there are still some hidden values the AI uses, IIRC). But some leagues are talent only, or have 1-10 ratings where you can see less detail. Hacking the file will show you the true ratings, because they are always still there, even though you can't see them without the password. It could give you an advantage.

DaveHorn · 01-07-2005, 03:53 PM

But you've never needed to hack the password to get those. Also, unless you are using coaches/scouts what you see is what you get. Minus the difference between scales. So yes, you could see that player A is really a 54 when you are using a 10 scale and he is rated a 5. Hardly a big deal IMHO.

Its definitely something a coach/scout, talent or stats only league is at risk of, but I do not feel a ratings league is at risk at all. Number 1 reason, while not my preference, I would only play in ratings leagues online.

What does IIRC mean?

I was not aware of any hidden values and personally do not belief there are any. When you export players there are no hidden values in the export and of course they don't exist when you import. So if there were hidden values, OOTP would have to create these for players when you import them. But they would be either totally random and therefore useless and probably screw up so many historical leagues or they would be based upon the already given talents/ratings and therefore still pretty much useless.

Can anyone validate that hidden attributes exist?

treedom · 01-07-2005, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveHorn

But you've never needed to hack the password to get those. Also, unless you are using coaches/scouts what you see is what you get. Minus the difference between scales. So yes, you could see that player A is really a 54 when you are using a 10 scale and he is rated a 5. Hardly a big deal IMHO.

Well, I think they are important. If you are in a league that uses 1-10 ratings and you have a player with 5 power and you are trading for another with 5 power and you know that your guy has an actual rating of 40 while the other guy is at 49, you have a huge advantage (all other things being equal).

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveHorn

What does IIRC mean?

If I Remember Correctly

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveHorn

I was not aware of any hidden values and personally do not belief there are any.

There are. Way back with v4 when I was fooling around with some utility (Pierre's?) I distinctly remember seeing some sort of overall player worth value that took into consideration the player's abilities and his age (the lower the better). You do not see it in the export/import because the AI probably builds it from all the other variables available to it. I think there were a couple more, but my memory is muddy. It was a couple years ago.

DaveHorn · 01-07-2005, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treedom

Well, I think they are important. If you are in a league that uses 1-10 ratings and you have a player with 5 power and you are trading for another with 5 power and you know that your guy has an actual rating of 40 while the other guy is at 49, you have a huge advantage (all other things being equal).

The guy with 40 is not going to show 5 as his number as long as coaches/scouts is turned off. It will always show a 4. So you are comparing a 4 to a 5. I believe the example you were tying to show it the difference if you have a 4 (who is really a 35) and a 4 (who is really a 44). Which I will agree is a difference, but I personally do not consider it huge, nor do I worry about it. But that really is all just personal opionion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by treedom

There are. Way back with v4 when I was fooling around with some utility (Pierre's?) I distinctly remember seeing some sort of overall player worth value that took into consideration the player's abilities and his age (the lower the better). You do not see it in the export/import because the AI probably builds it from all the other variables available to it. I think there were a couple more, but my memory is muddy. It was a couple years ago.

But that could of been just a function of Pierre's tool. I wasn't around back then so I can't really speak on that. But think about it. If this "hidden" rating is nothing more than based upon the ratings that already exist and you already know what these other values are. Then it means nothing.

I personally do not believe there is anything "hidden" like this in the game. I may sometime have to prove it to myself by doing a binary analysis on the players.dat file. Would not take that long to figure it out.

treedom · 01-07-2005, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveHorn

The guy with 40 is not going to show 5 as his number as long as coaches/scouts is turned off. It will always show a 4. So you are comparing a 4 to a 5. I believe the example you were tying to show it the difference if you have a 4 (who is really a 35) and a 4 (who is really a 44).

Well, it doesn't matter because you got what I was trying to say, but, huh?

If I plug in 40-49 it shows 5.

DaveHorn · 01-07-2005, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by treedom

Well, it doesn't matter because you got what I was trying to say, but, huh?

If I plug in 40-49 it shows 5.

So everything is rounded up to the nearest whole? Ok, that makes sense. Well, it makes your post make sense.

As you said, I got your point. Its the same 9pt swing as if it was using "normal" rounding rules.

Matteo · 01-07-2005, 11:05 PM

My biggest concern is contract extensions if owners can hack the file. Simming ahead is no big deal IMO since so many random events take place (even in player development) that I don't bother.

I am pretty sure that IF it is easy to hack a league file with password it will be done. I trust my owners in such a way that I don't think any of them does that.

01-05-2005, 02:33 PM	#1
waltwa All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 906	is it possible to play ahead i recall reading a post a while back re players playing ahead in the game. i did not pay much attention but lately i have had some trades offered that did not make good sense. also i have had 2-3 occasions recently where immediately after the trade the player i received went down in ratings points. i have tried to play ahead and have found that it can't be done without having the commissioner's password. i put a lot of time into 8 leagues and while it is only a game and a hobby i do like to feel that everyone is playing on a level field. i do know that the commissioner can play ahead and actually recall an instance where the commish was caught doing it. i have to admit that if i had the chance to play ahead to get an advantage i wouldn't do it because actually what does it prove to have to cheat to win in a fun league. probably most everyone feels the same as i do but still the question remains. 1. if you play ahead does it give you an advantage in seeing how ratings will be affected. that is does the game tend to follow a similiar or exact path 2. besides the commissioner is it possible to play ahead without the commissioner giving out his password.

01-07-2005, 08:21 AM	#4
Randall Major Leagues Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: VA Posts: 321	1) As the last 2 replies said, it can give you an idea of how players may develop, but it won't give you a 100% certainty... 2) It's quite easy to hack... __________________ Randall FORT - Atlanta Braves CPL - Pittsburg Pirates Formerly NABL - Philadelphia Phillies Formerly GMC - Vasto Rangers Formerly NBA - Atlanta Braves - 1973 Champ Formerly ThePBL - Anaheim Angels - 1975 Champ

01-07-2005, 08:51 AM	#5
Ford Prefect Major Leagues Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Hamburg Posts: 470	Maybe its easy to hack and maybe you can gain a edge by simming ahead but the taste in your Mouth would be bitter. And the Human Factor kicks in anyway, if i keep a Star Player out and the Comp plays him in your Sim ahead he suffer a career injury. Your Sim would be total different then the real Sim. Thats my __________________ I would pay 50 Dollars for BM 2006, if everybody does. Lets campain for higher but equal pricing, support a good product

01-07-2005, 12:08 PM	#7
DaveHorn All Star Starter Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 1,146	We (players/GMs/commishioners) can't do anything to make the password more difficult to hack. We can only hope security is improved in OOTP7. First, if you don't trust the commish, why do you bother? Just get out. Its not worth the grief. Second, as a commish, I am always fearful someone might be trying to get a competitive edge by hacking the password and screwing up the competitive balance in my league. There are some ways where the password could give you an edge, espcially at certain times of the season. However, IMHO, simming ahead is not really one of them. And of all the things I worry about, simming ahead is the least of my concerns. __________________ Dave HFTC Commish

01-07-2005, 03:53 PM	#12
DaveHorn All Star Starter Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 1,146	But you've never needed to hack the password to get those. Also, unless you are using coaches/scouts what you see is what you get. Minus the difference between scales. So yes, you could see that player A is really a 54 when you are using a 10 scale and he is rated a 5. Hardly a big deal IMHO. Its definitely something a coach/scout, talent or stats only league is at risk of, but I do not feel a ratings league is at risk at all. Number 1 reason, while not my preference, I would only play in ratings leagues online. What does IIRC mean? I was not aware of any hidden values and personally do not belief there are any. When you export players there are no hidden values in the export and of course they don't exist when you import. So if there were hidden values, OOTP would have to create these for players when you import them. But they would be either totally random and therefore useless and probably screw up so many historical leagues or they would be based upon the already given talents/ratings and therefore still pretty much useless. Can anyone validate that hidden attributes exist? __________________ Dave HFTC Commish Last edited by DaveHorn; 01-07-2005 at 03:54 PM.

01-05-2005, 02:36 PM	#2
Steve T Major Leagues Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Pocono Mountains, PA Posts: 346	1- The game is random. You can sim ahead one time, and the player will drop in ratings. You can sim ahead in the same league again, and the player may not drop in ratings. 2- You can not sim without having the Commish password.

01-07-2005, 11:57 AM	#6
waltwa All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 906	i actually am a little disturbed by the knowledge that it is easy to hack. i was in a league where by some screwup the commish was found to be playing ahead. apologies were made and the league continued. after 2-3 seasons the commish was playing at a .750 clip in a league with almost all solid owners. was he cheating? i don't know but the knowledge that he had played ahead in the past coupled with the w-l record eventually led me to drop out of the league. assuming the commish doesn't cheat and i believe that is true in the overwhelming number of leagues- how would you go about making it difficult to hack into the league passwords or is it possible to do. is this something that can be made more difficult to do by adding security to the game.

01-07-2005, 03:16 PM	#10
waltwa All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 906	i am not sure exactly what the previous post is saying. do u mean that by hacking into the system you can discover hidden ratings for each player that tell you exactly how he will develop or at least give you a good idea and that it is really not necessary to play ahead.

01-07-2005, 11:05 PM	#17
Matteo Major Leagues Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL Posts: 473	My biggest concern is contract extensions if owners can hack the file. Simming ahead is no big deal IMO since so many random events take place (even in player development) that I don't bother. I am pretty sure that IF it is easy to hack a league file with password it will be done. I trust my owners in such a way that I don't think any of them does that. __________________ ESPN The Show live chat during 2004 ALCS: Julie (Boston): Do you think Jeter does the fist pump everytime he disappoints a woman in bed? Or does he save it for when he's with A-Rod? Bill Simmons: Whoops - I didn't mean to post that. Really, I didn't.