Great suggestion about status of new features and bugs

[Eugene Church]

Sorry, MD's second thread was closed before I could post this.

Communication on this board would be greatly improved if OOTPB took Adventureran's great suggestion and posted a list of possible features for upcoming versions.

Of course, Markus would be the one to select them and he could periodically update the list showing the status of each item.

I have been guilty of overkill on my particular favorites I want added, and to be honest, I would have stopped if OOTPB acknowledged it in some way...saying yes we will seriously consider it...or no, this is not possible to code...it is a slight possibility or whatever.

For example:

Include all basic play results: will be in OOTP7.

or

Include all basic play results: not possible to code in time for OOTP7...but in OOTP8 for sure.

or

Include all basic play results: not likely...OOTPB is mainly designed for simmers...play result is not high priority to them.

I realize Markus can't respond to every post and thread, but he could monthly give us an overview of the progress he is making.
I don't expect him to give away trade secrets or anything.

Just a thought...no need to flame or attack...just say you agree or disagree and why...or come up with a better solution.

I am tired of childish comments and personal attacks, so please let this be a civil discussion.

It's ok to bash me and my idea...actually bash Adventureran, it is his idea...just kidding... but please do it in a civil fashion.

Thanks.

[kq76]

Good idea. A number of people I've talked to feel it is pretty much pointless to offer suggestions because there is very little feedback on them and year after year many don't make it. I understand that there is just not enough time in the day to do all that, but this idea just might help dispel that feeling and convince people that it is not a waste of time to make a suggestion. I know for the most part I've given up on contributing more ideas until I see past ones make it in. I wouldn't be surprised if they feel they have enough ideas already though.

[jbmagic]

MD thread was move to the feedback/tech forum ...i saw it there]




if youi look on top of this forum u will see a new sticky.....there enforcing a new rule when posting and where to post...

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...threadid=66707

[Henry]

Moving this to "OOTP Problems, Feedback & Tech Support"

[Eugene Church]

Originally posted by Henry
Moving this to "OOTP Problems, Feedback & Tech Support"

Sorry, Henry. I read the sticky, but apparently didn't understand where to put this.

I will try to put my threads in the right forum next time.

[Eugene Church]

Originally posted by kq76
but this idea just might help dispel that feeling and convince people that it is not a waste of time to make a suggestion. I know for the most part I've given up on contributing more ideas until I see past ones make it in. I wouldn't be surprised if they feel they have enough ideas already though.

I'm sure Markus has a list.

It would be great to know what's on his list.

I don't expect him to give away trade secrets...just some information updates on a regular basis.

[Night2000]

Yeah it would be great if Markus could give us feedback once in awhile about what can be added and when. Or what can't be added and why. This is one area where the Championship Boxing team excel at. The Trunzos give a monthly update on what is being worked on. Andreas will personally take the time to answer major concerns/problems. Even minor ones when he has the time.

Of course Markus at this time has a much larger fan base and couldn't possibly reply to our many questions/complaints. However there really should be no reason, why he can't keep us updated about what features, and bug fixes he plans to work on. Also what version they will be added. Many of us are guilty for wanting what we want in the current, or next version.

Honestly many of us have been waiting patiently for a lot of the stuff that was promised to be added already. I've been waiting since OOTP3 for the game to play out like a real game, and all the blah, blah, blah, I've been asking for. It gets to the point where you start to say to yourself.

How much money do I have to sink into this game, buying version after version? Before they finally add the stuff promised and fix the stuff not fixed from previous versions? Sure it's nice for the OOTP team to rub their hands together year after year, and say okay boys the new version is here with some fancy new features start ordering!

However it's becoming less and less enjoyable shelling out money every year. Seeing that many of the stuff promised in previous versions, are still either not included, or working correctly.

[sporr]

If I were Markus, I would only reveal new features when they had already been implemented and tested. That way nobody would have expectations that were too high. It would be fine if he said that he would "try" to implement certain features, but if I were him I wouldn't make any promises unless they were already programmed and working.

[Pops Abeer]

This seems to be a common problem for pc games. The dedicated players dont know where the game is heading. I play HOI and they are on version 1.06. The problem there is that they have introduced new logistical combat modifiers. Now I understand they are trying to fix certain issues, but they introduced a feature that I would have been adamently against had I known. They also have great community that contributes many great mods and suggestions. Now this modifier can sometimes be minimized if the player works at it, but my problem is that the AI can not possibly figure it out.

I think it would be great to have a list of issues and what there statis might be. It would enhance the feeling that we are a part of the process while not adding any new work accepy data entry.I am sure there is a list of issues and there stasis somewhere. Could that be shared without to much fuss?

[Henry]

Originally posted by Night2000
Sure it's nice for the OOTP team to rub their hands together year after year, and say okay boys the new version is here with some fancy new features start ordering!

Simply not true, and unfair to even suggest it.

There are tons of things Markus would like to add - and tons of things he has added. Compare Version 3 to Version 6 to see that.

Try looking at this a different way...

If the difference between V3 and V6 represents the total amount of "stuff" Markus can add in 3 years, then the question is more of the type "Did he add the stuff I wanted".

That's a significantly different question than "Why isn't my stuff in there?"

Markus has to make decisions on what to add/change every year. He's made those decisions, and when you compare V3 to V6, most of that has been a significant improvement to the game.

I'm sure those that DID get their "stuff" added think the game is great, and those that are still waiting are hoping their "stuff" gets in V7.

It's all a matter of choices - but expecting it ALL to get in some given Window of time is also unrealistic - and suggesting Markus & compny doesn't care simply isn't true.

[kq76]

Funny, I did not read Night2000's post as saying he felt Markus & co. did not care. If anything, I just saw his post as him saying that he's like me in being disappointed that certain things have not made it into the game yet. I'm sure he, like most of us, realizes that Markus needs to make the call on what will add the most value to the game and that of course sometimes his opinion will differ from ours.

I have to agree with sporr though. Although it would be nice to get updates on where OOTP is headed, which we already sometimes do, it would cause problems when opinions on the matter differ, perhaps more than it is worth.

[Henry]

Forgive me if I see things in statements that suggest "not caring".

When I read "Sure it's nice for the OOTP team to rub their hands together year after year, and say okay boys the new version is here with some fancy new features start ordering!" in a post that complains about their favorite features not being added after 3 years, I tend to think they are suggesting a "don't care" attitude.

Why else would such a statement be made unless it was simply carelessness?

I'm not trying to cause a problem here, but the undercurrent (intentional or not) that OOTP isn't listening that is constantly repeated in posts, suggests an envirnment that isn't true. Those things that have been asked for that are not in the game are not there for one of a few reasons....

1. Not enough time,
2. Too difficult or impossible given the current design, or
3. Not part of Markus plan.

[kq76]

Originally posted by Henry
Those things that have been asked for that are not in the game are not there for one of a few reasons....

1. Not enough time,
2. Too difficult or impossible given the current design, or
3. Not part of Markus plan.

EDIT: Deleted what I said earlier as I felt it was getting too personal, even though it was not at all meant to hurt. I do still believe that most people already realize what is in the above quote though.

[Eugene Church]

Originally posted by Henry
I'm not trying to cause a problem here, but the undercurrent (intentional or not) that OOTP isn't listening that is constantly repeated in posts, suggests an envirnment that isn't true. Those things that have been asked for that are not in the game are not there for one of a few reasons....

1. Not enough time,
2. Too difficult or impossible given the current design, or
3. Not part of Markus plan.

Henry, you are one of my favorite people on this board...always so helpful and pleasant. I don't think Markus is a money hungry developer who is taking advantage of my obsessive love of baseball. I think he is a fine decent person, not a liar or deceitful manipulative person. The way he gives us patches and updates discount that. However, I sense a lot of frustration from the patient, long-suffering, dedicated and loyal OOTPB Community which has come up since the release of OOTP6. It the most frustration I have witnessed in my two years on this board. And it doesn't seem to come only from the malcontents, but the reasonable core customers, too.

It is my opinion that Markus could remove a lot of our frustrations by communicating with the Community on a regular basis.

I am surprised that he has not replied personally to MD's two posts, which aroused great interest...several thousand views...in addition to several other threads that got quite a few views. Marc Vaughan responded. Why hasn't Markus?

It would be fine with me if Markus would have a list of features that have been requested and tell us his opinions of them. He could say too difficult or impossible to design..or it's not part of my plan for the game...or it's low priority. And a list of bugs in the game and whether they can be fixed and when.

I have been expecting all the basic game play results since OOTP4. I am not a programmer, but this area of the game seems to be one of the least complex parts of the game...and yet this has not been addressed in 3 versions. My gosh, this is OOTP6 and we still don't have a realistic game of baseball to play out...only a great and wonderful and quite complex sim game. I keep telling myself it will be in the next one because it is just play results, not very hard to fix, but it hasn't happen. I am frustrated because I see new features added, but I don't see the old features being fixed. We just get more things for Markus to fix.

Just have Markus talk to us on a regular basis...once a month like the Boxing developers apparently do. At least I would know when my personal favorite would be address and when game bugs would be fixed. I am a patient person who is willing to wait, but please give me some idea how long it is going to be.

I would think he has the time once a month to do this and it would be well worth his time.

[Eugene Church]

In the thread on this forum by bigdgp2 entitled, "Hey all..my opinion about OOTP6 and Markus" I found this quote by Mr. Gogulak and it really gives my opinions very simply and very well.

"An acknowledgement from Markus and company in the form of a known bug list would probably silence a great many of us who want this product to meet its potential. Either way the vitriole needs to stop and everyone should thank Steve, Henry, and Markus for their efforts in moving the ball forward. This problem is not due to a lack of effort on their behalf. I'm sure they're overwhelmed by the emotions that are on full display here on the boards the last few months. I hope they will take this suggestion to heart."

[Night2000]

Originally posted by Henry
Forgive me if I see things in statements that suggest "not caring".

When I read "Sure it's nice for the OOTP team to rub their hands together year after year, and say okay boys the new version is here with some fancy new features start ordering!" in a post that complains about their favorite features not being added after 3 years, I tend to think they are suggesting a "don't care" attitude.

Why else would such a statement be made unless it was simply carelessness?

I'm not trying to cause a problem here, but the undercurrent (intentional or not) that OOTP isn't listening that is constantly repeated in posts, suggests an envirnment that isn't true. Those things that have been asked for that are not in the game are not there for one of a few reasons....

1. Not enough time,
2. Too difficult or impossible given the current design, or
3. Not part of Markus plan.

You know what Henry you may always mean well. However you let your emotions get the best of you and are misconstruing my point. If you have an issue with what I'm saying at least post that issue within the context of what I said. Funny how you focused on this part

"Sure it's nice for the OOTP team to rub their hands together year after year, and say okay boys the new version is here with some fancy new features start ordering!"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yet left out this part that goes with it

How much money do I have to sink into this game, buying version after version? Before they finally add the stuff promised and fix the stuff not fixed from previous versions? Sure it's nice for the OOTP team to rub their hands together year after year, and say okay boys the new version is here with some fancy new features start ordering!

However it's becoming less and less enjoyable shelling out money every year. Seeing that many of the stuff promised in previous versions, are still either not included, or working correctly.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

So you focus on the part where you feel I'm calling OOTP greedy and uncaring. When the main gist of my statement was about the features that were promised from previous versions. Still were either not included, or working correctly. As is evidenced in may other posts by people who have brought up these issues on these boards.

There comes a point in time when before you keep adding new stuff, you should make sure everything else is working or added as advertised. No matter who you are, you have to deal with your conscience. If I put out a product and I intend to keep improving it, and selling it every year. Then I should at least make sure that all that I promised in my product is there and working. If the product is not as I have promised. Then how could I keep adding things, and expect my customers to have the same faith, or satisfaction in my product?

As far as the point I make about waiting for features since OOTP3.
Yes I want the game to play out more realistically. Don't you?
Do we have to wait till version 8, 10, 11 before this can become a reality? What is the name of this game? Isn't it a Baseball game?
Does it display the plays in text or graphics? Since it's all text based.

Descriptions should be the most important part of making you feel like your playing a real game. After 6 versions I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a text baseball game to include many of the plays that you actually see in a season. This game has a lot of great features, however it lacks atmosphere. This is what hopefully Markus will improve on. Along with everything else that is already in the game and needs to be addressed.

[Night2000]

Originally posted by kq76
Funny, I did not read Night2000's post as saying he felt Markus & co. did not care. If anything, I just saw his post as him saying that he's like me in being disappointed that certain things have not made it into the game yet. I'm sure he, like most of us, realizes that Markus needs to make the call on what will add the most value to the game and that of course sometimes his opinion will differ from ours.

I have to agree with sporr though. Although it would be nice to get updates on where OOTP is headed, which we already sometimes do, it would cause problems when opinions on the matter differ, perhaps more than it is worth.

Thank you Kq76, and Eugene you guys understood what I was trying to say and meant. Henry did not. LOL.. I guess since Henry is part of the OOTP team, he felt I was calling him greedy! Henry you wild and crazy guy! I do not know you personally enough to make that judgement. If anything at least we got the old blood pumping.

[Henry]

If I misunderstood, I'm sorry.

It's just that I know in a business environemnt (meaning you make your living off the product) Markus needs to mix new features with fixes - or else the "new version" won't sell. I also have to assume he's added as much as time would allow him over the past 6 years.

Let's just hope the partnership with SI gives him the time and resources to do more than he's been able to up to this point.

[Markus Heinsohn]

OK, let me explain a little... first off, I think that our approach to have a messageboard, a community and vital communication with our customers is not something too common in the general gaming world. Sure, most text-sim developers handle it this way, but I feel that it shouldn't be something that can be taken for granted.

I really enjoy this, but from my perspective it sometimes creates problems as well. See, I try to add as much as possible to the game, and fix as many problems as I can. But every now and then I mention that a certain feature (most of the time it's something I am really excited about) will make it into the release version, and then for various reason I wasn't able to do it. Many times the reason is just simply lack of time (H2H), or simply that it would be way too complicated to put the feature in so that the cons outweight the pros (financial coefficient). Sure, I have to agree that this doesn't seem like a viable business practice, but hey, I still do not see this as 100% business. I do all this because I love baseball and I love to make games... that's why I sometimes get over-excited and 'promise' a feature that doesn't make it into the game in the end. By no means is this intended to lure customers into (pre)ordering. Heck, those who know me would say that I'm the last person that'd have something like that in mind...

Also, some vocal members of this board have sometimes a certain feature in mind that they want to see added, and keep complaining that it doesn't get implemented. But see, I have to decide what features are worth the time and effort to code them, and in some cases I have to decide against it. That's the life of a developer I guess...

Just my .02

[gmo]

Originally posted by Markus Heinsohn
But see, I have to decide what features are worth the time and effort to code them, and in some cases I have to decide against it.

I think what a lot of us would like, leaving aside whether or not it is fair or reasonable to want or expect it, is to know whenever a decision is made like that on features as well as bugs/fixes/changes.

It's gotta be tough - we're given so much with the game, we can't help but always want (what seems like) just a little more.