any good tips when making your batting order?

jbmagic · 03-10-2004, 05:49 PM

any good tips when making your batting order? who should lead off, batt 2nd, 3rd, etc..what types of players?

and starting rotation ?

thanks

kq76 · 03-10-2004, 06:10 PM

Batting order I find that the game really does a pretty good job at it. You might be able to do a bit better, but it's probably not worth the extra time. Somethings might seem odd like a catcher batting first or something, but if you really look at the situation you can probably see a fairly good reason (e.g. splits) why the AI chose that.

On the other hand, I frequently disagree with the choices the AI makes with regard to the starting rotation. To start a season I go with what the computer says. After a few starts I go with best to worst ERC (not ERA). I don't trust going with the best ratings or Win %. Occassionally I'll also bump up starters that are currently hot, but I'm not certain that's a good idea, especially for inconsistent players.

sdmvssp · 03-10-2004, 07:11 PM

I don't trust the computer doing the lineups ever since they had Andrew Jones batting 1st. He batted .186 with 12 homers after like the first month. About half of his hits were homers, so that being a leadoff hitter seemed like a terrible idea to me. Now he's batting .208 with 21 homers 60 games in

fhomess · 03-10-2004, 07:15 PM

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of the AI batting orders either. As for rotations, it's anecdotal at best, but I've always felt that certain guys perform better in certain spots in the rotation.

mlyons · 03-10-2004, 07:40 PM

Conventional wisdom says your leadoff guy would have the best combination of OBP and speed on your team. Your #2 hitter is usually another high OBP guy, preferably one who can bunt and steal a few bases. #3 is usually just your best overall hitter. #'s 4 and 5 are generally your best homerun hitters, and after that you just slot in your best hitters as you go. (I generally use OPS to determine quality.) Teams that play with a DH will occasionally try to put another guy with speed at the #9 slot, to give them two speedsters in a row after the first inning. It's also nice to stagger your left-handed hitters with your right-handed hitters to decrease the effectiveness of specialist relievers on the other team. As far as pitching rotations go, it's pretty basic; you put your best starter at #1, your second-best at #2, and so on. How you determine who's best is up to you; I generally go by ERA first and look at W-L for similar ERA's.

Joshv02 · 03-10-2004, 08:44 PM

1. Remember, the computer is looking mainly at ratings (and never at names).

2. some created a nifty lineup calculator at some point (on an excel sheet). Search the board...

jmaness84 · 03-10-2004, 11:02 PM

I couldn't say it better than what mylong said. There is one theory that says put your best hitter 1, 2, 3, 4, etc... For example this would be the Braves lineup in this theory. Chipper Jones, Andruw Jones, JD Drew, Marcus Giles, Rafael Furcal, etc.. Reason for this is to get the best hitters more at bats. I've never used it, but it is a theory nonetheless.

obaslg · 03-11-2004, 09:03 AM

The computer lineups are usually far from what I do. The most noticeable issues are its tendency to put a crappy hitter #2, and its tendency to put a low-OBA, good speed hitter #1.

I do lineups differently depending on whether I have a DH. DH is easier. I rank my hitters by OBA and SLG. Then, as a basic rule, I put the highest OBA in front of the highest SLG, and expand out from there, trying to keep high OBAs in front of high SLGs. Then I tweak a little (VERY little) for speed, or to account for oddities of high SLGs that are really only contact hitters, etc.

Once I have that sequence, I decide who bats first based on who the overall best hitters (basically, OPS) are. I don't change the order at all in this stage - I just determine where the cycle starts to maximize the ABs of the best hitters. I have a little Excel thing for doing that, but it almost always agrees with my eyeball anyway. I usually end up with the guy who would be the #3 hitter in a traditional lineup batting #2, and the guy who would be leadoff batting #9.

That was all for DH. Non-DH is tougher, b/c you have the pitcher's spot, so you can't really loo at the lineup as a circle, which is what my DH method does. I would GM a non-DH team differently, for starters. I would be more likely to concentrate my hitting in a few players - I wouldn't worry about have even 2-3 no-hit great fielders. I would try to get 1-2 great-OBA, low-SLG hitters to top the lineup, and then follow them with a few sluggers. The rest is gravy.

PFXCarty · 03-11-2004, 09:20 AM

Why would anyone want to use the CPU generated lineup? Doesn't that defat the whole point of being a GM in a baseball game?

Ah well =P.

mlyons · 03-11-2004, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by PFXCarty
Why would anyone want to use the CPU generated lineup? Doesn't that defat the whole point of being a GM in a baseball game?

Ah well =P.

Not if you want to be strictly the GM. Theo Epstein isn't going to set the lineups for Terry Francona, after all.

dougaiton · 03-11-2004, 10:07 AM

The one serious problem with the lineup AI is the use of catchers connected to the depth chart. Very often, a decent hitting catcher may lead-off, hit 2nd etc., and while this is realistic for a starting lineup, with the depth chart logic being as it is for 1/5 of your games a season you'll have your backup catcher hitting 3rd, 4th or 5th. I think there's argument enough that the AI should downgrade catchers based on the fact that they play less than any of their teammates.

sporr · 03-11-2004, 11:42 AM

Let's not forget that studies show that batting order has very little effect on how many games you win over the course of the season.

Gastric ReFlux · 03-11-2004, 12:35 PM

Lately, I've been batting my pitchers leadoff when my team is on the road because I've discovered it gets their heads into the game much faster.

obaslg · 03-11-2004, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Let's not forget that studies show that batting order has very little effect on how many games you win over the course of the season.

Really? Any link for that?

sporr · 03-11-2004, 06:48 PM

According to this, the difference between a conventional batting order and the best batting order (descending OBP) is only .4 games per season.

http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~raj/w...tingOrder.html

jened · 03-11-2004, 10:45 PM

yeah but this is ootp man

mlyons · 03-11-2004, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sporr
According to this, the difference between a conventional batting order and the best batting order (descending OBP) is only .4 games per season.

http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~raj/w...tingOrder.html

The problem with this article is that it completely fails to account for speed in its simulation, whether through stolen bases, advancing an extra base, and even triples. Speed, of course, is one of the primary considerations in a conventional batting order. I know that a number of people feel that speed and steals are overrated statistical factors, but they can't simply be ignored, especially when testing a lineup based partly on speed against one that's not. I wonder what the difference between conventional batting order and descending OBP would be if speed were taken into account?

TotalEnd98 · 03-12-2004, 01:29 AM

Didn't someone do a study in OOTP, simming a season with two teams identical in every way except that one team's batting order was from highest OBP (or OPS, don't recall which) to lowest and the other's was from lowest to highest? And they ended up something like two games apart in the standings?

Or has someone snuck hallucinogens into my food?

obaslg · 03-12-2004, 09:48 AM

Thanks, sporr - that's interesting stuff. I still don't know if I can resist doing my complex lineup determination - let's me feel like I have some control.

SSG Troyer · 03-12-2004, 11:30 AM

I don't care if it has any effect or not ... I have my way of putting together a lineup, and if I don't have the warm fuzzies I get when a lineup is right, then I'm not having as much fun.

Placed in the order mentioned, and as each player is placed, cross him off the list of "best [whatever]".

Best OPS 3rd.
Best SLG 4th.
Best speed/steal 1st, unless he is 4th or worse OBA, when best OBA goes 1st.
Best speed/steal 8th, unless he's got the best OBA, when he goes 2nd, and then the best speed/steal goes 8th.
Best OBA 2nd (or best speed/steal 8th if 2nd placed above).
Best OPS 5th.
Looking at last two, the better hitter goes 6th.
The worst position hitter on the team bats 7th.

I spend a lot of energy making sure my leadoff and 8th men are good OBA guys with speed and steal ratings. Why do I like speed in the 8 hole? With none or one out, if he gets on base, he's a threat to steal in front of a pitcher sacrifice 2nd-3rd or a pinch hitter to drive him in. My 8th man normally ranks 3rd or 4th on the team in runs scored ... Also, 1st and 8th are ideally interchangable, for rest/injury days, and if one of them is notably better against righties or lefties, they'll platoon leadoff.

03-10-2004, 07:15 PM	#4
fhomess Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 3,648	Yeah, I'm not a big fan of the AI batting orders either. As for rotations, it's anecdotal at best, but I've always felt that certain guys perform better in certain spots in the rotation. __________________ StatsLab- PHP/MySQL based utilities for Online Leagues Baseball Cards - Full list of known templates and documentation on card development.

03-10-2004, 07:40 PM	#5
mlyons Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 3,725	Conventional wisdom says your leadoff guy would have the best combination of OBP and speed on your team. Your #2 hitter is usually another high OBP guy, preferably one who can bunt and steal a few bases. #3 is usually just your best overall hitter. #'s 4 and 5 are generally your best homerun hitters, and after that you just slot in your best hitters as you go. (I generally use OPS to determine quality.) Teams that play with a DH will occasionally try to put another guy with speed at the #9 slot, to give them two speedsters in a row after the first inning. It's also nice to stagger your left-handed hitters with your right-handed hitters to decrease the effectiveness of specialist relievers on the other team. As far as pitching rotations go, it's pretty basic; you put your best starter at #1, your second-best at #2, and so on. How you determine who's best is up to you; I generally go by ERA first and look at W-L for similar ERA's. __________________ Things can always be worse.

03-10-2004, 08:44 PM	#6
Joshv02 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: , " Posts: 3,082	1. Remember, the computer is looking mainly at ratings (and never at names). 2. some created a nifty lineup calculator at some point (on an excel sheet). Search the board... __________________ Brookline Maccabees. RIP

03-11-2004, 09:03 AM	#8
obaslg All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 887	The computer lineups are usually far from what I do. The most noticeable issues are its tendency to put a crappy hitter #2, and its tendency to put a low-OBA, good speed hitter #1. I do lineups differently depending on whether I have a DH. DH is easier. I rank my hitters by OBA and SLG. Then, as a basic rule, I put the highest OBA in front of the highest SLG, and expand out from there, trying to keep high OBAs in front of high SLGs. Then I tweak a little (VERY little) for speed, or to account for oddities of high SLGs that are really only contact hitters, etc. Once I have that sequence, I decide who bats first based on who the overall best hitters (basically, OPS) are. I don't change the order at all in this stage - I just determine where the cycle starts to maximize the ABs of the best hitters. I have a little Excel thing for doing that, but it almost always agrees with my eyeball anyway. I usually end up with the guy who would be the #3 hitter in a traditional lineup batting #2, and the guy who would be leadoff batting #9. That was all for DH. Non-DH is tougher, b/c you have the pitcher's spot, so you can't really loo at the lineup as a circle, which is what my DH method does. I would GM a non-DH team differently, for starters. I would be more likely to concentrate my hitting in a few players - I wouldn't worry about have even 2-3 no-hit great fielders. I would try to get 1-2 great-OBA, low-SLG hitters to top the lineup, and then follow them with a few sluggers. The rest is gravy. __________________ Realy good musition of many insterments, including the hyperbolic vitriol.

03-11-2004, 10:07 AM	#11
dougaiton Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Location: Posts: 3,414	The one serious problem with the lineup AI is the use of catchers connected to the depth chart. Very often, a decent hitting catcher may lead-off, hit 2nd etc., and while this is realistic for a starting lineup, with the depth chart logic being as it is for 1/5 of your games a season you'll have your backup catcher hitting 3rd, 4th or 5th. I think there's argument enough that the AI should downgrade catchers based on the fact that they play less than any of their teammates. __________________ tThis shower of clowns My park-adjusted, historically split Born in '69 league file! (also at Joe's wonderful site +BBSC)

03-10-2004, 05:49 PM	#1
jbmagic Hall Of Famer Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,417	any good tips when making your batting order? any good tips when making your batting order? who should lead off, batt 2nd, 3rd, etc..what types of players? and starting rotation ? thanks

03-10-2004, 06:10 PM	#2
kq76 Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 11,755	Batting order I find that the game really does a pretty good job at it. You might be able to do a bit better, but it's probably not worth the extra time. Somethings might seem odd like a catcher batting first or something, but if you really look at the situation you can probably see a fairly good reason (e.g. splits) why the AI chose that. On the other hand, I frequently disagree with the choices the AI makes with regard to the starting rotation. To start a season I go with what the computer says. After a few starts I go with best to worst ERC (not ERA). I don't trust going with the best ratings or Win %. Occassionally I'll also bump up starters that are currently hot, but I'm not certain that's a good idea, especially for inconsistent players. __________________ My OOTP Wishlist \| My FAQ List OOTP Wiki \| Your Recommended Team Nicknames, By City (A Crowdsourced Project)

03-10-2004, 07:11 PM	#3
sdmvssp Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 47	I don't trust the computer doing the lineups ever since they had Andrew Jones batting 1st. He batted .186 with 12 homers after like the first month. About half of his hits were homers, so that being a leadoff hitter seemed like a terrible idea to me. Now he's batting .208 with 21 homers 60 games in

03-10-2004, 11:02 PM	#7
jmaness84 All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Georgia Posts: 1,685	I couldn't say it better than what mylong said. There is one theory that says put your best hitter 1, 2, 3, 4, etc... For example this would be the Braves lineup in this theory. Chipper Jones, Andruw Jones, JD Drew, Marcus Giles, Rafael Furcal, etc.. Reason for this is to get the best hitters more at bats. I've never used it, but it is a theory nonetheless.

03-11-2004, 09:20 AM	#9
PFXCarty Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 25	Why would anyone want to use the CPU generated lineup? Doesn't that defat the whole point of being a GM in a baseball game? Ah well =P.

03-11-2004, 11:42 AM	#12
sporr Global Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Muscatine, IA Posts: 8,277	Let's not forget that studies show that batting order has very little effect on how many games you win over the course of the season.

03-11-2004, 12:35 PM	#13
Gastric ReFlux Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Member #3409 Posts: 8,350	Lately, I've been batting my pitchers leadoff when my team is on the road because I've discovered it gets their heads into the game much faster.

03-11-2004, 06:48 PM	#15
sporr Global Moderator Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Muscatine, IA Posts: 8,277	According to this, the difference between a conventional batting order and the best batting order (descending OBP) is only .4 games per season. http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~raj/w...tingOrder.html

03-11-2004, 10:45 PM	#16
jened Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: upstate NY (saratoga county) Posts: 255	yeah but this is ootp man __________________ cooper_gd's OTWE Results OTWE HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION: KING JENED III

03-12-2004, 01:29 AM	#18
TotalEnd98 All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: New York Posts: 1,687	Didn't someone do a study in OOTP, simming a season with two teams identical in every way except that one team's batting order was from highest OBP (or OPS, don't recall which) to lowest and the other's was from lowest to highest? And they ended up something like two games apart in the standings? Or has someone snuck hallucinogens into my food? __________________ OTBL - Scandinavia Cartoon Heroes This is the way the world ends Not with a bang but a whimper.

03-12-2004, 09:48 AM	#19
obaslg All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 887	Thanks, sporr - that's interesting stuff. I still don't know if I can resist doing my complex lineup determination - let's me feel like I have some control. __________________ Realy good musition of many insterments, including the hyperbolic vitriol.

03-12-2004, 11:30 AM	#20
SSG Troyer All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Somewhere to the left of 2nd base Posts: 1,598	I don't care if it has any effect or not ... I have my way of putting together a lineup, and if I don't have the warm fuzzies I get when a lineup is right, then I'm not having as much fun. Placed in the order mentioned, and as each player is placed, cross him off the list of "best [whatever]". Best OPS 3rd. Best SLG 4th. Best speed/steal 1st, unless he is 4th or worse OBA, when best OBA goes 1st. Best speed/steal 8th, unless he's got the best OBA, when he goes 2nd, and then the best speed/steal goes 8th. Best OBA 2nd (or best speed/steal 8th if 2nd placed above). Best OPS 5th. Looking at last two, the better hitter goes 6th. The worst position hitter on the team bats 7th. I spend a lot of energy making sure my leadoff and 8th men are good OBA guys with speed and steal ratings. Why do I like speed in the 8 hole? With none or one out, if he gets on base, he's a threat to steal in front of a pitcher sacrifice 2nd-3rd or a pinch hitter to drive him in. My 8th man normally ranks 3rd or 4th on the team in runs scored ... Also, 1st and 8th are ideally interchangable, for rest/injury days, and if one of them is notably better against righties or lefties, they'll platoon leadoff. __________________ MWT Did Tennesee Delaware Mississppi's New Jersey? Idaho ... Alaska!