Ichiro, CC & Wagner voted into HOF

[Cobra Mgr]

Andruw robbed again.

[low]

I want the name of the jerkass who didn't vote for Ichiro. They need their voting privileges taken away permanently.

[kq76]

Originally Posted by low

I want the name of the jerkass who didn't vote for Ichiro. They need their voting privileges taken away permanently.

I'm actually surprised it was that close to being unanimous. With all these people suggesting in the lead-up that it might or should be unanimous, I thought there'd be no way in hell it would be. I mean, I think he's a hall of famer, I just didn't think all the voters would. I thought a lot of people would look at his numbers and just think, besides the 3000 hits in MLB, his stats just aren't slam dunk hall of famer kinds of numbers. Just look at his OPS and OPS+ (I hate those two stats, but I know how much some people love them). Does .757 and 107 scream hall of famer? I don't think they do. And yeah, if you factor in his Japanese league numbers and his amazing defense then he looks more like a sure hall of famer, but I didn't think most people would give him credit for that stuff. And I thought his numbers might have been even discounted by some since he played so long. If he had come up just short of 3000 hits (he got 3089), would he have been even close to unanimous?

It could have just been someone who figured Ichiro would get in anyway and they wanted to throw that extra vote to someone else they hoped wouldn't fall off the ballot.

I don't care how many votes someone got, how many years it took, or what group voted them in. If you're in, you're in.

[monkeyman576]

Whoever the one voter who didn't vote for Ichiro was should be fired.

[Ty Cobb]

Pretty darn good class. I’m truly surprised Ichiro wasn’t unanimous. Someone is a dolt.

[Ty Cobb]

Sorry, Cobra. Gotta disagree. I don’t care what position you play, if you can’t hit well above the league average, you certainly do not belong in the Hall. That means Rabbit Maranville just as much as Andruw Jones.

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by Ty Cobb

Sorry, Cobra. Gotta disagree. I don’t care what position you play, if you can’t hit well above the league average, you certainly do not belong in the Hall. That means Rabbit Maranville just as much as Andruw Jones.

I'm not debating the point again like I have before on this forum. Cause I stand on the following: 400+ HR's & 10 GG's.

And If you believe in defensive analytics (I don't) the only non IF or C in the top 25 all time in dWAR.

Rest my case.

[Ty Cobb]

Two fifty four...

The only jury that matters continues to not speak.

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by Ty Cobb

Two fifty four...

The only jury that matters continues to not speak.

Actually, the jury agrees w/me. Not enough of the jury maybe. But the majority do.

[Déjà Bru]

There is this subjective factor; that is,

think of any other baseball luminary [besides Mariano Rivera] – Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Walter Johnson, Hank Aaron, Jackie Robinson, Willie Mays, Rickey Henderson – and none of them were named on every ballot. That's patently absurd, but it's the truth. It became a self-perpetuating bit of nonsense, as the occasional voter would say something like, "If [legendary player X] wasn't a unanimous choice, then [slightly inferior legendary player Y] sure can't be, either."

In other words, if my favorite player wasn't elected unanimously, this guy shouldn't be, either. I'll make sure he is not.

[kq76]

Originally Posted by Ty Cobb

Two fifty four...

The only jury that matters continues to not speak.

Are you seriously dead set against a guy simply because of his BA? I still like BA too, but man. As crazy as it may sound, let's compare Ichiro to Andruw. Ichiro was fast and had a god-like arm, yes, but do you know that the defensive stats, and a lot of eyeballs, say Andruw Jones was one of, if not the, best ever CF? We could quibble on who was the best defender, but let's just say it's a wash or at least close enough to one.

Now let's look at offensive stats. Sure, Ichiro hit 3000, but he also stuck around for several years after a lot of players would have retired, like Andruw did. Yes, Ichiro had a great peak, but for nearly half of his career you have to wonder how he got so much playing time. Andruw OTOH said, no, I'm out. Part of me does give credit to someone who loved the game so much that they hung on as long as they could, but I don't want to give too much credit for that, especially not credit towards the hall. If you don't like OPS like me (Ichiro had a .757, Andruw .823), let's just compare their GPA, which gives more credit to Ichiro's OBA. Using the standard 1.75 OBA multiplier with a 4/3 divisor to put it on more of an OPS scale, Ichiro has a .767 GPA (.355*1.75+.402)/4/3, which is decent, but not hall-worthy on its own, while Andruw has an .807 (.337*1.75+.486)/4/3, which combined with his defense, I think certainly is hall-worthy.

Yes, maybe Ichiro has the allure with all the attention he got from coming out of the gate so well and, ooo, he attained the magical 3000 hit milestone, but come on. While Ichiro was great, it's pretty clear to me that Andruw was too. The only huge difference is Ichiro stuck around for a lot longer than Andruw did, which for me at least doesn't count for a whole lot towards the hall. Andruw almost didn't even get the 5% to stick on the ballot in his first year and yet somehow Ichiro is almost unanimous? Come on, their value to their teams wasn't that different.

[monkeyman576]

Ichiro had approximately 1000 more hits than Jones. That is the overriding stat. You can't hold it against him that he stayed around.

[Ty Cobb]

We can't discuss Ichiro's stats from back in his native land here because, well, reasons...but remember Jones has his years from 19-26 included, and Ichiro does not. Apples to apples would require those years being considered. The defense was there, and the hitting buries the case for Jones comparatively.

Or...we could discuss the toxic reputation of Jones. I'm sorry, I can't imagine the Mariners releasing Ichiro because he reported fat and with an attitude problem. Just wouldn't happen. I also doubt you'd ever see Ichiro get arrested for choking his wife. This stuff matters, and to me, my namesake has enough negatives (even the not-debunked ones) to be iffy. I'll say the same about Puckett, Rose, the Black Sox, Howe, Clemens, Bonds, even Raines and Parker...guys like that don't belong in the Hall, and are NOT worthy of admiration regardless of their talent. I may be in the minority, but it's my opinion and right or wrong, I stand by it. You're perfectly entitled to disagree, as is Cobra or anyone else.

[Amazin69]

Meanwhile, let me be the first to congratulate CC, whom I wasn't sure was a sure thing. Congrats, Carsten Charles!

[kq76]

Originally Posted by Ty Cobb

We can't discuss Ichiro's stats from back in his native land here because, well, reasons...but remember Jones has his years from 19-26 included, and Ichiro does not. Apples to apples would require those years being considered. The defense was there, and the hitting buries the case for Jones comparatively.

Huh? Hitting buries Jones? But in all metrics, but BA and hits, Jones was a better hitter than Ichiro. I mean I hear you on BA, too many dismiss it and only want to consider OBA or OPS, but man, Ichiro was pretty much just a no power hit machine offensively while Jones was so much more than that. Just look at their SLG alone and yeah, Ichiro's speed allowed him to have his fair number of doubles and triples, but Jones's SLG was still so much better while his OBA wasn't that far from Ichiro's.

And I think we can consider Ichiro's Japan stats. Sure, they're not easily comparable to MLB's, but I do give him some credit for how successful he was there. If he hadn't hit 3000 hits in MLB I still would have considered him on that level given how well he hit in Japan.

Originally Posted by Ty Cobb

Or...we could discuss the toxic reputation of Jones. I'm sorry, I can't imagine the Mariners releasing Ichiro because he reported fat and with an attitude problem. Just wouldn't happen. I also doubt you'd ever see Ichiro get arrested for choking his wife. This stuff matters, and to me, my namesake has enough negatives (even the not-debunked ones) to be iffy. I'll say the same about Puckett, Rose, the Black Sox, Howe, Clemens, Bonds, even Raines and Parker...guys like that don't belong in the Hall, and are NOT worthy of admiration regardless of their talent. I may be in the minority, but it's my opinion and right or wrong, I stand by it. You're perfectly entitled to disagree, as is Cobra or anyone else.

And here we go. Here's the real reason. And fair enough, if that's the reason (I actually didn't know about this or at least didn't remember it), I'm fine with that. I just wish we'd cut to the chase. Dude was good enough on the field, but not good enough off.

As for attitude problem accusations, I'm always skeptical of those. You could have a personality clash with someone over something stupid or something legit, but unless we know the details I just can't believe who is at fault in that kind of situation, management or the player. It's just too easy for someone to be able to say someone else has a bad attitude when it could actually be the accuser who has the bad attitude.

[monkeyman576]

Sorry, but Japan stats should not be considered any more than minor league stats should be considered.

[mytreds]

I’m not a Braves fan. Growing up, I remember three great Braves from my childhood. Greg Maddux, Chipper Jones, and Andruw Jones. Put AJ in the Hall already.

[Cobra Mgr]

I'm curious, if these writers had equal needs & were doing a draft knowing ahead of time the future of these players, how many would select Billy over Druw?

[Déjà Bru]

I thought this was a good article of Ichiro appreciation with nuggets like, how does a player go to the plate 678 times in one season and ground into only one double play?

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/a...ame-induction/

This especially:

To be a pioneer does not mean to do something that never would've happened without you. It means to do something for the first time and by necessity to wear the yoke of being first. It means that how difficult or easy it is for those who come after you hinges on what you do and how you do it. If Ichiro had not been the first hitter from Asia to appear in the U.S. major leagues, then someone else would've. History would have been delayed, though, and preconceptions would've persisted for longer. Because Ichiro thrived in defiance of his style and stature, more conventional hitters making the leap -- hitters like Hideki Matsui, Seiya Suzuki, and, yes, Ohtani -- did so with fewer barriers and doubts. That matters. That still matters.

[kq76]

If Ichiro had not been the first hitter from Asia to appear in the U.S. major leagues, then someone else would've.

I read this and I thought, "that's not true! Hideki what's his name came over before him and probably 1 or 2 others too." But I checked, and Ichiro was the first batter to come over. I was confusing Hideki Irabu and Hideki Matsui.

Tsuyoshi Shinjo did come over only a day later than Ichiro and only lasted a year and a half, but I will concede that if they had both not stuck around that probably would have delayed the influx.

I wonder why we had so many pitchers, but no hitters. I guess we were just super desperate for pitchers due to injuries and maybe lack of talent over here.