Negro League Stats

[KJDelaney]

Hello.

Sorry of this has already been asked, but with the news last week of the addition of Negro League to MLB, will the historical stats be updated?

[Syd Thrift]

I know that some of the DBs out there have NeL players in them already. I’m honestly not sure if the OOTP one does or not, it used to be based off the Lahman database so it was up to Sean Lahman but I think there’s more data in there now regarding pitch repertoire, etc.

[brigmcneil]

I think you can incorporate the Negro League stats but they are deemed minor league stats and all of the Negro Leagues are simply in one league, "Negro Leagues". So, they won't get counted as major league stats and won't show as MLB records.

[boscoJJ]

Originally Posted by KJDelaney

Hello.

Sorry of this has already been asked, but with the news last week of the addition of Negro League to MLB, will the historical stats be updated?

isn't NeL in MLB Since 2020?

[luckymann]

Any NeL stats from leagues and seasons deemed "major" by the MLB back in 2020 have been treated as such in OOTP for the past few versions.

That said, the players themselves are still treated akin to minor leaguers. They cannot be included in Random Debut games, nor do they appear in any other types of game other than those in which historical minors are invoked. Other than if one introduces them manually, that is.

All this latest announcement has done is decree that stats from these seasons are now to be included in the "official" MLB leaderboards.

Other than that, little has changed.

SABR has, however, just recommended a whole new batch of indy NeL teams and additional seasons be deemed "major league".

The full list of teams and organizations that were determined to be of major-league caliber are:

Pre-1920

• Algona Brownies (1903)
• All Cubans (1905, 1911)
• Atlantic City Bacharach Giants (1918-1919)
• Brooklyn Royal Giants (1905-1914, 1916-1919)
• Chicago American Giants (1911-1919)
• Chicago Columbia Giants (1899-1902)
• Chicago Giants (1910-1911, 1913)
• Chicago Leland Giants (1905-1910)
• Chicago Union Giants (1902-1906)
• Chicago Unions (1897-1900)
• Cuban Giants (1889, 1891, 1893-1894, 1907)
• Cuban X-Giants (1897-1899, 1901-1906)
• Cuban Stars East (1916-1919)
• Cuban Stars of Havana (1906-1915)
• Cuban Stars West (1916-1919)
• Detroit Stars (1919)
• French Lick Plutos (1913)
• Hilldale Club (1918-1919)
• Indianapolis ABCs (1914-1918)
• Kansas City (KS) Giants (1909, 1911)
• New York Gorhams (1891)
• New York Lincoln Giants (1911-1919)
• New York Lincoln Stars (1914-1916)
• New York Quaker Giants (1906)
• Oklahoma City Monarchs (1910)
• Page Fence Giants (1897-1898)
• Philadelphia Giants (1903-1911)
• Louis Giants (1911-1912, 1915-1916)
• Paul Gophers (1909)
• Schenectady Mohawk Giants (1913)
• Stars of Cuba (1910)
• West Baden Sprudels (1910-1913)
• York Monarchs (1890)

1920-1948

• Atlantic City Bacharach Giants (1920-1921)
• Baltimore Black Sox (1922, 1930-1931)
• Birmingham Black Barons (1923)
• Brooklyn Royal Giants (1920-1922)
• Chicago American Giants (1936)
• Cuban Stars East (1920-1922)
• Hilldale Club (1920-1922, 1928, 1930-31)
• Homestead Grays (1928, 1930-1931, 1934)
• Kansas City Monarchs (1931-1936)
• Memphis Red Sox (1923)
• New York Bacharach Giants (1922)
• New York Black Yankees (1932-1935)
• New York Harlem Stars (1931)
• New York Lincoln Giants (1920-1922, 1930)
• Philadelphia Stars (1933)
• Pittsburgh Crawfords (1932)

Post-1948

• Negro American League (1949-1950)

It is also is in the process of revising the SABR Style Guide to explain how the terms “Major League” and “major league” should be used.

How the MLB will respond to this is yet to be seen.

G

[OzzieFan]

Whatever is done, I hope it will not mess up whatever algorithms are being used. I think people do realize those stats have to be taken with a grain of salt.

[diesel230]

The book keeping and statistical accumulation was shoddy at best.
Not a lot of games in there "seasons"
Barnstorming teams.

It's crazy that this will now change 150 years of sports most important stats

[Pelican]

I feel like I am getting hoarse from pointing out that good records exist for the hundreds of barnstorming games that were played, usually in October, between MLB stars and Negro League stars, from the early 1920's through to the 1940's. I don't understand why these games are largely ignored, even though they were well-attended, and good records kept and exist. While the sample size is not huge, there were enough games to provide a statistical analysis of how some of the best black players performed against some of the best white players, year after year. And over many years, the performances were amazingly even. The available records suggest that the best black players were every bit as good as the best white players. Which provides push-back against those whining about inferior Negro League competition and inflated numbers. So long as you limit Negro League stats to games between Negro League teams, I believe they are valid and comparable to MLB stats. And contrary to popular belief, that theory has been tested and proven.

[diesel230]

Get hoarse.
“Baseball is a double-entry account system in which every action of the offense is mirrored by an action of the defense,” explained John Thorn, MLB’s official historian and chairperson of the Negro Leagues Statistical Review Committee. “An out registered by a batter must be secured in the field as well. So in absence of a box score, we cannot be sure that the Negro Leagues records will balance, and balance is the essence of the game
But as Thorn explained, without a box score, there is no way to statistically account for Mays’ “661st” home run ... or another one Retrosheet lists for him on Aug. 28 of that season. The Lexington Herald reported that Mays hit a three-run shot against the New York Cubans at Blue Grass Field in Lexington,

And That's just Willie Mays. Poor record keeping. You can white knight all you want
Never did I say the level of competition was lacking. MLB stats with 140-162 game seasons should not to altered with small sample sizes and poor statistical record keeping

[sprague]

Originally Posted by diesel230

Get hoarse.
“Baseball is a double-entry account system in which every action of the offense is mirrored by an action of the defense,” explained John Thorn, MLB’s official historian and chairperson of the Negro Leagues Statistical Review Committee. “An out registered by a batter must be secured in the field as well. So in absence of a box score, we cannot be sure that the Negro Leagues records will balance, and balance is the essence of the game
But as Thorn explained, without a box score, there is no way to statistically account for Mays’ “661st” home run ... or another one Retrosheet lists for him on Aug. 28 of that season. The Lexington Herald reported that Mays hit a three-run shot against the New York Cubans at Blue Grass Field in Lexington,

And That's just Willie Mays. Poor record keeping. You can white knight all you want
Never did I say the level of competition was lacking. MLB stats with 140-162 game seasons should not to altered with small sample sizes and poor statistical record keeping

I agree with a lot of this.

Sample size is the main phrase here.
For example I would have no problem to equalize negro season stats with MLB, if 154 games would be brought together. So if say that took a negro player to combine the 1921-1925 stats together I would be pretty much ok with the results, because they played a similar number of games, and there was a similarity of the skills of the star players.


But we too know it is a big difference from a player hitting .356 in 140 games and a player hitting .450 in 24 games.

When sample size can be properly harmonized I would be fine with the complete integration...

[italyprof]

Originally Posted by Pelican

I feel like I am getting hoarse from pointing out that good records exist for the hundreds of barnstorming games that were played, usually in October, between MLB stars and Negro League stars, from the early 1920's through to the 1940's. I don't understand why these games are largely ignored, even though they were well-attended, and good records kept and exist. While the sample size is not huge, there were enough games to provide a statistical analysis of how some of the best black players performed against some of the best white players, year after year. And over many years, the performances were amazingly even. The available records suggest that the best black players were every bit as good as the best white players. Which provides push-back against those whining about inferior Negro League competition and inflated numbers. So long as you limit Negro League stats to games between Negro League teams, I believe they are valid and comparable to MLB stats. And contrary to popular belief, that theory has been tested and proven.

Thank you. MLB has now integrated Negro League player statistics into OFFICIAL MLB statistics. Those statistics and players' records should not any longer be segregated by a game that continues to market itself as an officially registered game with a close relationship to MLB. The very next update of OOTP 25 should include the players, seasons, teams, leagues and stats that MLB has just made official stats as major league stats, with them available in random debut and historical games AS major leagues and major league players and stats.

I don't see anyone arguing that the Dodgers didn't win a World Series or that there were no batting champs or Cy Young winners in 2020 or in 1994.

[diesel230]

How do you know who won the batting title in 1994?

[Pelican]

Originally Posted by diesel230

Get hoarse.
“Baseball is a double-entry account system in which every action of the offense is mirrored by an action of the defense,” explained John Thorn, MLB’s official historian and chairperson of the Negro Leagues Statistical Review Committee. “An out registered by a batter must be secured in the field as well. So in absence of a box score, we cannot be sure that the Negro Leagues records will balance, and balance is the essence of the game
But as Thorn explained, without a box score, there is no way to statistically account for Mays’ “661st” home run ... or another one Retrosheet lists for him on Aug. 28 of that season. The Lexington Herald reported that Mays hit a three-run shot against the New York Cubans at Blue Grass Field in Lexington,

And That's just Willie Mays. Poor record keeping. You can white knight all you want
Never did I say the level of competition was lacking. MLB stats with 140-162 game seasons should not to altered with small sample sizes and poor statistical record keeping

I think you are operating under a false assumption that complete box scores don't exist for the Negro League seasons in question. They do. That's the tireless work that Seamheads has been accumulating over decades, from a variety of sources. I can't speak to the Mays home runs in particular; but I would be surprised if box scores are not available for those games. It's the early Negro Leagues where full information may be lacking, and I agree with you that those statistics are not always reliable or equivalent.

Second, you seem to be suggesting that Negro League teams didn't play enough games each year to "qualify". On the one hand, most teams played more than 140-154 games, counting barnstorming and games against semi-pro town teams, sometimes three or four a day. They typically played around half that many against equivalent Negro League teams. Seventy or eighty games should be plenty to establish averages. Of course, the players lose out on cumulative totals, with fewer games.

Finally, I don't see how you would simply ignore the records of hundreds of barnstorming (and Winter League) games between white and black teams of all-stars, over decades of play. Guys on these teams knew exactly what they were doing, and they played to win. These games were far more competitive than the MLB All Star Game has ever been. This is the only measure of direct competition we have, and the black stars more than held their own. Read the comments of the guys on both sides who played. How many times does Satchel Paige (in his prime) have to strike out MLB stars, before it's significant? How many home runs does Josh Gibson have to hit, off of top MLB pitchers?

[Cod]

BRef's FAQs about this topic are a great resource: https://www.baseball-reference.com/a...ues-data.shtml. Barnstorming is covered in multiple places.

[LansdowneSt]

Originally Posted by diesel230

How do you know who won the batting title in 1994?

https://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Qualifier

[diesel230]

Pelican,You seem to validate each of my points by the end of each paragraph you write. You say they have accurate and thorough stats and in the same sentence say you cant speak to the incomplete Willie Mays Home Run game, just one of the hundreds of incomplete games and box scores that will be added. "Early" seasons is what's lacking? Willie Mays is to early? They do not have accurate and complete boxscores. Not good enough to be official MLB stats compared to MLB statistics from the same era. Seamheads has done fantastic work. A variety of sources. Do you know who the sources are? I have read about some of the sources. Boxscores in home ledgers. Good enough maybe to confirm a previous source? Possibly. To use as MLB official statistics? Negative.

Again, you validate my point. Barnstorming, semi pro, PCL teams, MLB tour players, Cuban teams. Amazing talent for sure. Random games with no league structure and dedicated layed out schedule. Gmaes were played and canceled on a whim.

Never once did i say the talent was lacking or the level of competition wasn't there. I'm sure the best Black players were just as good and better than the white superstars of their time. Just like every decade after integration. Its pretty obvious.

You guys can do all the mental gymnastics needed to tell yourselves this makes sense. In the end, it does not.

[diesel230]

ItalyProf and Lansdowne

We know who won the 1994 Batting title because we had Elias sports, Televised games, the press, our eyeballs and brains, fans at the games etc....

Now please tell me how we know how the now 3rd highest Batting Average ever, in his whopping 73 At Bats for the season, Lyman Bostock won the 1941 Batting Title.
And please, lol saying "Seamheads" is not the answer

[hfield007]

in 50 years enough people will have grown up with negro leagues being treated as equal and it will be far enough removed that a lot of people won't even argue about it anymore lol.

anyway, remember when bowie kuhn refused to investigate ty cobb's hit total during pete rose's chase of his record when presented with an overwhelming amount of evidence that cobb's hit total was wrong? baseball is filled with fans who do not want to change anything that they grew up believing. we can all just be glad that things like B-R exist for as accurate a picture of baseball statistical history as exists anywhere.

hopefully they can be integrated in an alternate historical game mode properly one day. either way, the work at seamheads is incredible. I can remember 15 years ago not being able to find much in the way of negro history or stats on the internet. it's amazing how much is available to us.

[hfield007]

Originally Posted by diesel230

Get hoarse.
“Baseball is a double-entry account system in which every action of the offense is mirrored by an action of the defense,” explained John Thorn, MLB’s official historian and chairperson of the Negro Leagues Statistical Review Committee. “An out registered by a batter must be secured in the field as well. So in absence of a box score, we cannot be sure that the Negro Leagues records will balance, and balance is the essence of the game
But as Thorn explained, without a box score, there is no way to statistically account for Mays’ “661st” home run ... or another one Retrosheet lists for him on Aug. 28 of that season. The Lexington Herald reported that Mays hit a three-run shot against the New York Cubans at Blue Grass Field in Lexington,

And That's just Willie Mays. Poor record keeping. You can white knight all you want
Never did I say the level of competition was lacking. MLB stats with 140-162 game seasons should not to altered with small sample sizes and poor statistical record keeping

i hope i don't grow to be this angry when i'm older.

[diesel230]

in 50 years enough people will have grown up with negro leagues being treated as equal and it will be far enough removed that a lot of people won't even argue about it anymore lol.>>>

One of the worst answers possible. Soft