Let's talk about defense

Fronzizzle · 07-30-2022, 09:25 AM

Multi-tiered defense discussion & question.

My 2025 Tigers - projected to win 84 games - are off to a 24-35 start. They have a lot of issues, but for this post I want to focus on defense.

Runs against is 14th, starters ERA is 14th and bullpen ERA is 12th. Doesn't paint a rosy picture. However, the pitching staff is 5th in K, 6th in WAR and 8th in FIP.

On defense, the team ranks 14th in Efficiency and Zone Rating, but only 5th in Errors. So, my questions:

1) In OOTP, is one of the two metrics (Efficiency or Zone Rating) better to use in terms of looking at individual players? In real life, I'm used to seeing Outs Above Average or Defensive Runs Saved, so not sure how the OOTP metrics relate.

2) Is the effect of defense great enough to worry about moving to, say, average (7th or so) in either category at the expense of some offense? Ideally, you have great defenders that can hit all over the lineup but that's not always possible.

3) I imagine that in OOTP, having better defenders at up the middle positions (C, 2B, SS, CF) is more important than the corner spots?

4) Finally, an odd one. I was going through my entire team and not one starter or platoon player has a position rating less than 50, most are 55 or 60 and some (CF, 1B) are higher. Furthermore, if you dig down into the defensive ratings (arm, range, etc.), they are 55/60 or higher across the board. My LF sucks, he's a 45 defender with no much range but literally every other player "should" be above average on defense. Is this just a fluke, or something I'm not seeing?

brotherblues · 07-30-2022, 12:00 PM

I've seen videos that go deep into this. Basically, a gold glove type SS (blue range is mandatory) is a must. CF also with blue range. And, new this year, 3B is now a key defensive position. You can get by with green ratings everywhere else.

Pelican · 07-30-2022, 03:24 PM

Agree with the above. Just as IRL. If you are the 2022 Phillies with all those sluggers (some of whom aren't slugging or are hurt) and strong pitching, it's still tough to win with Didi Gregorius and Jean Segura as your middle infielders, each a defensive liability lacking in range. Better to start strong defenders and sacrifice some offense (although hardly an issue in the Phillies example). Again in CF, hard to win with Odubel Herrara taking the wrong routes to fly balls and breaking the wrong way on line drives. So, yeah, you need to upgrade that up-the-middle defense from average to good or excellent, and that should help your pitchers tremendously.

TuckerDuckson · 07-30-2022, 04:57 PM

Yeah goodness, defense will bite you in the butt in this version of OOTP. Even shortstops with like 45/45/25/45/45 bating ratings, but 80 defense will be all-stars and if they even have an average season with the bat, (say, .240/.280/.310), they'll be an allstar easily with like 3-4 WAR.

Whereas you'll have shortstops with amazing bats, who's defense range would be in the 60s and they'll put up a -10ZR and be absolute liabilities there, even with average ratings. Same goes with Thirdbase, Thirdbase defense is so important now. Like my 50 defense rated 3B, put up a -9.7 ZR, along with him being an below average runner, he put up a .285/.374/.643, 1.017OPS, with a 174OPS+ while hitting 61HR, and he put up a 4.2WAR. Yikes, and this is a guy who is 50 rated in both defense and speed.

My shortstop, who batted, .244/.310/.354 with a .668 OPS (which would get you benched), and an 85 OPS, put up a 2.4 WAR season, while only saving 6.2 runs with 8 errors. Yeah, he was half as valuable (granted WAR is position specific), as my 3B who put up an OPS+ nearly 100 points higher.

My right fielder who had -5.7ZR, but also hit at a 178OPS+ rate, with 71 HR, was worth just a bit over 6WAR. When Bonds hit 73 homers in 2001, he put up 12.4 offensive bWAR, and -1.2 defensive bWAR, granted he had an 1.379 OPS+, but my guy had a 1.102. I know this is inherently a bad comparison, but seriously, I would think nearly tying the MLB HR record would get you more than barely 6WAR, especially when my guy had a better defensive season than Bonds.

Catcher defense? Don't even get me started, if your catcher doesn't have at least a 65 catcher ability, he can barely start behind the plate. He will have negative zone ratings, negative framing metrics, and can't seem to call a good game to save their life. This also, from my experience (but is probably just conjecture), will eventually effect their batting stats, and if they're a bad defensive catcher, and start fielding poorly, their bat soon goes into the toilet. But good catchers, ones with 80 defense? Are so beyond amazing, they've single handily (I feel like), have saved a few pitching staffs of mine.

Blue ratings are a must for Shortstop, Thirdbase, Centerfield and Catcher imo.

TuckerDuckson · 07-30-2022, 04:58 PM

ignore this, my internet freaked and double posted even tho I only posted once....

md40022 · 07-30-2022, 05:01 PM

I dont think it's your internet. There have been double posts all over the forum the last day or two....

Brad K · 07-30-2022, 05:05 PM

Having everyday players with an average rating will not produce a team that is average in defense. Other teams have everyday players better than average while the average or below average players don't play much.

Pelican · 08-02-2022, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by md40022

I dont think it's your internet. There have been double posts all over the forum the last day or two....

Yeah I've been guilty. Troubleshooting suggests it was the forum slowing down to a crawl - problem with the server - and posts not posting, causing me and probably others to hit the post button again, when it was just slow. If you wait impatiently it eventually posts.

FlyTheW1104 · 08-02-2022, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brotherblues

I've seen videos that go deep into this. Basically, a gold glove type SS (blue range is mandatory) is a must. CF also with blue range. And, new this year, 3B is now a key defensive position. You can get by with green ratings everywhere else.

Is 3B more significant than 2B? I always figured that having a rangey 3B with a good arm could be as important as a good 2B,

billyray1984 · 08-02-2022, 12:48 PM

OOTP 22 needed you to have great defenders above all else at C, SS and CF.

OOTP 23 seems to have nerfed (somewhat) how valuable C and CF are (you still need very strong defenders there), but 3B and RF are now also defensive first positions most of the time. Guys with decent enough ratings in RF (50/50/65) are now usually below average fielders @ RF, and an above average range and arm are now almost mandatory to play 3B/RF as a starter.

Now that both leagues have the DH, it evens out the playing field somewhat between AL and NL, but this pretty much means your 2B should be a slugger who isn't too bad defensively and your LF, 1B and DH better rake to make up for all the glove first guys.

Marinersfan51 · 08-02-2022, 03:40 PM

To answer one of the original questions, ZR is the stat to look at and is basically comparable to OAA or DRS which have replaced UZR as the primary saber defensive stat over the last couple years.

jfb8300 · 08-02-2022, 04:31 PM

Be careful which screen ZR is taken from, there is a display issue in the bug forum that has gone unaddressed for weeks where ZR appears different on the player page vs roster/stat page - https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...d.php?t=339652

jberg57 · 08-02-2022, 04:56 PM

Love my 80 speed CF that has 40 Range...c'mon

Brad K · 08-02-2022, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jberg57

Love my 80 speed CF that has 40 Range...c'mon

He starts off running the wrong direction!

Seriously though, the speed rating is for how often he will try to steal bases and and has zero to do with defense.

Marinersfan51 · 08-02-2022, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad K

He starts off running the wrong direction!

Seriously though, the speed rating is for how often he will try to steal bases and and has zero to do with defense.

They tend to be correlated, but this is correct. There also are examples of guys with great speed who just aren't particularly good outfield defenders. Lou Brock comes to mind, stole a ton of bases and legged out a lot of triples, but was a poor defensive left fielder. Terrence Gore is another one who isn't much of an outfielder despite elite speed, not that he gets many opportunities since he can't hit a lick.

6-4-3 · 08-04-2022, 11:05 AM

You can win without defense depending on how your league is trending. My 50+ year old fictional league has entered a period of 'mashing' like the steroid era.... all offense and pitching is hard to find. So after 4 years of trying with this particular team to get pitching to win I gave up and went all offense. 3 years later I had 3 guys with 40+ HR and 100+ RBI. We won the championship with a team defense zone rating of over -50 which was about -30 from any other team in the league. I only had 1 green rated defender... everyone else was yellow or red... I use the DH so that helped. It worked but now I have to blow it all up because everyone is getting old and expensive....the owner is a penny pincher.

Syd Thrift · 08-04-2022, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marinersfan51

They tend to be correlated, but this is correct. There also are examples of guys with great speed who just aren't particularly good outfield defenders. Lou Brock comes to mind, stole a ton of bases and legged out a lot of triples, but was a poor defensive left fielder. Terrence Gore is another one who isn't much of an outfielder despite elite speed, not that he gets many opportunities since he can't hit a lick.

Brian Hunter also came to mind. Rickey Henderson as well for that matter, although he was still a good left fielder (he just lacked a good arm). On the other hand, Dave Henderson was always a pretty useful CF even though he didn't have a whole lot of baserunning speed post like 1985 or so. And of course there's always Mickey Mantle.

Just a note on the original point: catcher defense is most definitely *not* as pronounced as it was in 22. It used to be that you absolutely had to have a guy who was 60+ (out of 80) in Catcher Ability in order to win consistently; now not so much (although if you want that effect you can increase pitch framing in the options; I bumped mine up from the default 5 to 7 and like the results in the context of an early 70s league where the ability exists but teams aren't specifically training for it).

As an aside to that I'm not sure how it works exactly but I think there ought to be a very severe penalty to this specifically when using unrated or low rated catchers.

billyray1984 · 08-05-2022, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Brian Hunter also came to mind. Rickey Henderson as well for that matter, although he was still a good left fielder (he just lacked a good arm). On the other hand, Dave Henderson was always a pretty useful CF even though he didn't have a whole lot of baserunning speed post like 1985 or so. And of course there's always Mickey Mantle.

Just a note on the original point: catcher defense is most definitely *not* as pronounced as it was in 22. It used to be that you absolutely had to have a guy who was 60+ (out of 80) in Catcher Ability in order to win consistently; now not so much (although if you want that effect you can increase pitch framing in the options; I bumped mine up from the default 5 to 7 and like the results in the context of an early 70s league where the ability exists but teams aren't specifically training for it).

As an aside to that I'm not sure how it works exactly but I think there ought to be a very severe penalty to this specifically when using unrated or low rated catchers.

I like that now you can't just trawl FA or the minors for a guy with 70-80 catcher ability and no bat, plug him there and have the best staff in all of baseball year after year.

wallewalls · 08-05-2022, 10:49 AM

So because anything else below, say 65, in a handful of positions is unplayable, does that warrant a question about whether changes to defensive ratings should be looked at in the future?

For instance, if a 55 is unplayable, why is his rating 55? It should mean slightly above average like it does IRL.

Marinersfan51 · 08-05-2022, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wallewalls

So because anything else below, say 65, in a handful of positions is unplayable, does that warrant a question about whether changes to defensive ratings should be looked at in the future?

For instance, if a 55 is unplayable, why is his rating 55? It should mean slightly above average like it does IRL.

The people saying 55 is unplayable are being hyperbolic. They are looking at a SS with 55 infield range and seeing that he is a below average shortstop. In theory the whole league should total out to 0 ZR since it is all relative to league average. My understanding is that OOTP doesn't quite handle this properly (though it should), but generally speaking, half of all shortstops should be below average. Since the pool of players playing shortstop all have plus range, 55 is below average range for a shortstop, though it is above average for infielders as a whole. Players like Tim Anderson, Bo Bichette, and Javier Baez all are negative SS defenders this year, but they all have plus range for infielders.

The overall position ratings could stand to be adjusted to place greater emphasis on range since that is more important in the defensive performance in game than it is given credit for in the positional ratings,

A lot of the confusion seems to stem from a lack of understanding of how positional adjustments work in WAR, which is admittedly not displayed anywhere in the game. If 9 players each playing a different position at exactly an average for that position level with identical offensive performances would post different WARs with the catcher's being the highest and the DH being the lowest since offense from a catcher is more valuable than offense from a 1B, obviously. dWAR includes the positional adjustment as well as their ZR, but there is nowhere in game where you can see the WAR calculation broken out so it can be unnecessarily obtuse.

07-30-2022, 09:25 AM	#1
Fronzizzle Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 177	Let's talk about defense Multi-tiered defense discussion & question. My 2025 Tigers - projected to win 84 games - are off to a 24-35 start. They have a lot of issues, but for this post I want to focus on defense. Runs against is 14th, starters ERA is 14th and bullpen ERA is 12th. Doesn't paint a rosy picture. However, the pitching staff is 5th in K, 6th in WAR and 8th in FIP. On defense, the team ranks 14th in Efficiency and Zone Rating, but only 5th in Errors. So, my questions: 1) In OOTP, is one of the two metrics (Efficiency or Zone Rating) better to use in terms of looking at individual players? In real life, I'm used to seeing Outs Above Average or Defensive Runs Saved, so not sure how the OOTP metrics relate. 2) Is the effect of defense great enough to worry about moving to, say, average (7th or so) in either category at the expense of some offense? Ideally, you have great defenders that can hit all over the lineup but that's not always possible. 3) I imagine that in OOTP, having better defenders at up the middle positions (C, 2B, SS, CF) is more important than the corner spots? 4) Finally, an odd one. I was going through my entire team and not one starter or platoon player has a position rating less than 50, most are 55 or 60 and some (CF, 1B) are higher. Furthermore, if you dig down into the defensive ratings (arm, range, etc.), they are 55/60 or higher across the board. My LF sucks, he's a 45 defender with no much range but literally every other player "should" be above average on defense. Is this just a fluke, or something I'm not seeing?

07-30-2022, 04:57 PM	#4
TuckerDuckson Major Leagues Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 446	Yeah goodness, defense will bite you in the butt in this version of OOTP. Even shortstops with like 45/45/25/45/45 bating ratings, but 80 defense will be all-stars and if they even have an average season with the bat, (say, .240/.280/.310), they'll be an allstar easily with like 3-4 WAR. Whereas you'll have shortstops with amazing bats, who's defense range would be in the 60s and they'll put up a -10ZR and be absolute liabilities there, even with average ratings. Same goes with Thirdbase, Thirdbase defense is so important now. Like my 50 defense rated 3B, put up a -9.7 ZR, along with him being an below average runner, he put up a .285/.374/.643, 1.017OPS, with a 174OPS+ while hitting 61HR, and he put up a 4.2WAR. Yikes, and this is a guy who is 50 rated in both defense and speed. My shortstop, who batted, .244/.310/.354 with a .668 OPS (which would get you benched), and an 85 OPS, put up a 2.4 WAR season, while only saving 6.2 runs with 8 errors. Yeah, he was half as valuable (granted WAR is position specific), as my 3B who put up an OPS+ nearly 100 points higher. My right fielder who had -5.7ZR, but also hit at a 178OPS+ rate, with 71 HR, was worth just a bit over 6WAR. When Bonds hit 73 homers in 2001, he put up 12.4 offensive bWAR, and -1.2 defensive bWAR, granted he had an 1.379 OPS+, but my guy had a 1.102. I know this is inherently a bad comparison, but seriously, I would think nearly tying the MLB HR record would get you more than barely 6WAR, especially when my guy had a better defensive season than Bonds. Catcher defense? Don't even get me started, if your catcher doesn't have at least a 65 catcher ability, he can barely start behind the plate. He will have negative zone ratings, negative framing metrics, and can't seem to call a good game to save their life. This also, from my experience (but is probably just conjecture), will eventually effect their batting stats, and if they're a bad defensive catcher, and start fielding poorly, their bat soon goes into the toilet. But good catchers, ones with 80 defense? Are so beyond amazing, they've single handily (I feel like), have saved a few pitching staffs of mine. Blue ratings are a must for Shortstop, Thirdbase, Centerfield and Catcher imo. __________________ Plays legit baseball now. My OOTP ratings are low. 2022 update: I'm two stars! Last edited by TuckerDuckson; 07-30-2022 at 05:11 PM.

07-30-2022, 04:58 PM	#5
TuckerDuckson Major Leagues Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 446	ignore this, my internet freaked and double posted even tho I only posted once.... __________________ Plays legit baseball now. My OOTP ratings are low. 2022 update: I'm two stars!

07-30-2022, 12:00 PM	#2
brotherblues All Star Reserve Join Date: Nov 2020 Posts: 658	I've seen videos that go deep into this. Basically, a gold glove type SS (blue range is mandatory) is a must. CF also with blue range. And, new this year, 3B is now a key defensive position. You can get by with green ratings everywhere else.

07-30-2022, 03:24 PM	#3
Pelican Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2021 Location: Wilmington, Delaware Posts: 3,289	Agree with the above. Just as IRL. If you are the 2022 Phillies with all those sluggers (some of whom aren't slugging or are hurt) and strong pitching, it's still tough to win with Didi Gregorius and Jean Segura as your middle infielders, each a defensive liability lacking in range. Better to start strong defenders and sacrifice some offense (although hardly an issue in the Phillies example). Again in CF, hard to win with Odubel Herrara taking the wrong routes to fly balls and breaking the wrong way on line drives. So, yeah, you need to upgrade that up-the-middle defense from average to good or excellent, and that should help your pitchers tremendously.

07-30-2022, 05:01 PM	#6
md40022 All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 778 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	I dont think it's your internet. There have been double posts all over the forum the last day or two....

07-30-2022, 05:05 PM	#7
Brad K Banned Join Date: May 2016 Location: St Petersburg Florida USA Posts: 6,693 Infractions: 0/2 (4)	Having everyday players with an average rating will not produce a team that is average in defense. Other teams have everyday players better than average while the average or below average players don't play much.

08-02-2022, 12:48 PM	#10
billyray1984 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jun 2021 Posts: 218	OOTP 22 needed you to have great defenders above all else at C, SS and CF. OOTP 23 seems to have nerfed (somewhat) how valuable C and CF are (you still need very strong defenders there), but 3B and RF are now also defensive first positions most of the time. Guys with decent enough ratings in RF (50/50/65) are now usually below average fielders @ RF, and an above average range and arm are now almost mandatory to play 3B/RF as a starter. Now that both leagues have the DH, it evens out the playing field somewhat between AL and NL, but this pretty much means your 2B should be a slugger who isn't too bad defensively and your LF, 1B and DH better rake to make up for all the glove first guys.

08-02-2022, 03:40 PM	#11
Marinersfan51 All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 777	To answer one of the original questions, ZR is the stat to look at and is basically comparable to OAA or DRS which have replaced UZR as the primary saber defensive stat over the last couple years.

08-02-2022, 04:31 PM	#12
jfb8300 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 134	Be careful which screen ZR is taken from, there is a display issue in the bug forum that has gone unaddressed for weeks where ZR appears different on the player page vs roster/stat page - https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...d.php?t=339652

08-02-2022, 04:56 PM	#13
jberg57 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 129	Love my 80 speed CF that has 40 Range...c'mon

08-04-2022, 11:05 AM	#16
6-4-3 Bat Boy Join Date: Mar 2019 Posts: 5	You can win without defense depending on how your league is trending. My 50+ year old fictional league has entered a period of 'mashing' like the steroid era.... all offense and pitching is hard to find. So after 4 years of trying with this particular team to get pitching to win I gave up and went all offense. 3 years later I had 3 guys with 40+ HR and 100+ RBI. We won the championship with a team defense zone rating of over -50 which was about -30 from any other team in the league. I only had 1 green rated defender... everyone else was yellow or red... I use the DH so that helped. It worked but now I have to blow it all up because everyone is getting old and expensive....the owner is a penny pincher.

08-05-2022, 10:49 AM	#19
wallewalls All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2016 Posts: 774 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	So because anything else below, say 65, in a handful of positions is unplayable, does that warrant a question about whether changes to defensive ratings should be looked at in the future? For instance, if a 55 is unplayable, why is his rating 55? It should mean slightly above average like it does IRL.