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Old 03-22-2022, 10:06 AM   #1
Trav876
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AI Lineup Issues

Has anybody noticed- and is there a way to fix this- that the AI makes some really dumb lineups quite often.

For example, guys hitting in the cleanup hole with 0 homeruns ... or poor stats, while the "best" hitter for example might be hitting 6th or 7th.

I know it can be different (and even realistic) to have this happen early on in the season, maybe based on past performance, etc. But I'm noticing it well into my seasons. And when I let my manager choose the lineups, he does the same thing quite often.

My #'s are set pretty normally (player AI evaluation settings)- in fact, I even have tried skewing them more toward "current season" at 25/47/18/10

47% current season, 25%, ratings, previous year at 18%, 2 years ago at 10%

And it really shouldn't matter whether I have lineups set for "traditional" versus "sabermetric" should it? When terrible hitters are in the 3 or 4 hole late into the season...traditional or sabermetric shouldn't be making that choice.

It just seems pretty unrealistic, even if a manager say, favors certain players, etc.

Eric Young (speedy, contact guy, with no power) wouldn't be hitting clean up in real life, ever...I don't care who the manager is, or what era baseball is being played. Yet I've seen that exact example, and many similar ones, throughout my play of OOTP 22.

Am I missing something? Is anyone else noticing this? And what have you done about it?
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Old 03-29-2022, 11:45 AM   #2
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I have noticed it. Weak number 4 hitters. Don't know what to do about it. Used to see a lot of catchers batting second. That happens less often now.
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Old 03-29-2022, 01:25 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by italyprof View Post
I have noticed it. Weak number 4 hitters. Don't know what to do about it. Used to see a lot of catchers batting second. That happens less often now.
Less often now, as in OOTP 23? Or 22? I have 22 and the poor line-up decisions seem to happen a lot.

I understand all "managers" are different and have different preferences, etc., but it still seems quite extreme to have low power guys, or even low rated hitters, hitting higher/middle of the order.

Wonder if this has been addressed by the creators/programmers.
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Old 03-29-2022, 01:44 PM   #4
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If you want some true discussion on this you should probably provide some specific examples. Devs. definitely read through this stuff so if you see something that is particularly egregious and are able to show it here it might lead to changes.

General complaints aren't going to be able to move that needle though.
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Old 03-29-2022, 02:17 PM   #5
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If the complaint is the 3-hole specifically, that's no longer considered a premium lineup position and shouldn't be one of the best hitters on the team.

I can't say I've noticed particularly egregious lineups by the AI, and echo the request above for specifics to help nail down possible problems and fixes.
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Old 03-29-2022, 09:29 PM   #6
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I thought I saw this the other day, a low power 4th outfielder type hitting cleanup, ur then I noticed he was in as an injury substitution.
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Old 03-29-2022, 09:44 PM   #7
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I thought I saw this the other day, a low power 4th outfielder type hitting cleanup, ur then I noticed he was in as an injury substitution.
Actually- you make a great point because when I do see this it is often in the pre-game lineups and due to a fatigued player subbing out, etc. It doesn't seem often the "normal" pre-set lineup.

It's kind of like the AI can't handle the change and figure out how to still get a line up in with best hitters near the top/middle of the order.

I'll post some examples when I see it.
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Old 03-30-2022, 07:00 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Trav876 View Post
Actually- you make a great point because when I do see this it is often in the pre-game lineups and due to a fatigued player subbing out, etc. It doesn't seem often the "normal" pre-set lineup.

It's kind of like the AI can't handle the change and figure out how to still get a line up in with best hitters near the top/middle of the order.

I'll post some examples when I see it.
I definitely agree with the AI not handling pre-game subs well. It's why I my current sim I decided to use 7-day Lineups for the first time. Got tired of seeing Roberto Perez and Stephen Alamais hit in the 2 and 4-spot when Moreno and Bichette got a day off.
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Old 03-30-2022, 09:48 AM   #9
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Here's an example of this phenomenon... I think. The fictional 1970 Mets are coming off of a really great season - some might say an "amazing" season - and went with the lineup below for this game. I don't show ratings so I can only go by stats; to be fair, I have the AI set to evaluate with stats only as well. Some notes on the players:

CF Curtis Hope is the regular leadoff man. He's got good pop for a center fielder and for a dude batting 1st but I appreciate the AI not moving him down to cleanup here. When it comes to the top 4-5 spots in the order I'd rather the AI just not touch those places.

C Jason Bushon normally bats a bit further down in the order. He's only average at avoiding Ks from the looks of it and while he has blazing speed for a catcher he's a 50/80 there so maybe not the best 2-hole hitter ever (note: when I say I don't have ratings on, I mean current/potentials; "other" ratings, which include speed and defense related ones, stay on). Probably he'd be my choice to fill in at cleanup, although he's not exactly a power hitter.

1B Joshua Waltenberry is the reigning MVP and the team's best hitter. No, he shouldn't be hitting 3rd. This is where I put him in the order. I'm using 1970 logic, not 2022 logic.

3B Nick Hawkinson is... an interesting choice for cleanup to say the least. He's a 41 year old guy who has hit about league-average (98 and 96 OPS+) the past 2 seasons. I only say this because the chances of him suddenly becoming a secret power hitter are very, very low. He hasn't topped double digits in HRs since 1964 (6 years ago) and really doesn't even get a lot of XBHs anymore. He's, um, a leader in the clubhouse, although I don't think the AI looks at that to make lineup decisions.

RF Edgar Arriaga is having a very bad year this year but he'd be a decent choice for cleanup, as he hit 27 HRs with 74 RBIs last season. He's also the regular #5 hitter so I'm not crying overly hard that the AI didn't move him out of his normal slot.

LF Mario Diaz is filling in for the regular LF, Jimmy Washington (.226, 6, 48). Washington is (for now) the team's cleanup hitter and he was a beast last season, hitting 29 HRs with 113 RBI. I've begun pulling him against some lefties but he sat out today entirely because he's tired. Diaz is a 37 year old guy who crushes right-handed pitching and is the team's primary pinch-hitter. I understand and appreciate the AI not slotting him into the cleanup spot either.

2B Bob Baldwin is a backup infielder, as is SS Robert Williams. Of course, David Camacho hits like a pitcher. None of these guys can or should hit cleanup.

***********

With all that said, my choices for the cleanup guy would probably go:

1. Jason Bushon
2. Edgar Arriaga
3. Mario Diaz
4. Nick Hawkinson

I think Bushon in particular is a clear choice over Hawkinson, to the degree that I could easily justify Hawkinson batting 2nd (he's still got some speed at his age and rarely strikes out so he can turn the hit and run like a pro) in that scenario. The rest of those guys, also sure to lesser degrees.

ETA: This is in the 7th inning where the Mets have scored 8 runs, so optimal or not this lineup is definitely getting the job done!
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Old 03-30-2022, 09:54 AM   #10
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Yeah, I agree that looks decent other than the 4-spot.
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Old 03-30-2022, 09:32 PM   #11
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I thought I saw this the other day, a low power 4th outfielder type hitting cleanup, ur then I noticed he was in as an injury substitution.
seems like there'd be an easy loop of logic to bump players down the lineup... in most cases this will result in a better lineup.

injury guy goes to 8 or 9 and then everyone moves up... maybe slightly different loop for #1/2, but for meat of lineup almost always going to be best route to lineup power hitters in a row... no duds... no turds in the punch bowl, lol..

injury or fatigue
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Old 04-09-2022, 10:47 PM   #12
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OK, here's a great example of what I originally posted.

Eric Young hitting in the 5 hole. This is the AI's recommended lineup due to some fatigued players... in the normal lineups that I have set (when everyone is fresh/not fatigued), he's in the 7 or 8 hole.

He is a low power guy (35 power- and I have scouting on 100% accuracy), whereas all 3 guys hitting further down in the order have more HR, higher SLG, and better power rating (Bichette, Castellano, Cockrell)
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Old 04-10-2022, 11:25 AM   #13
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OK, here's a great example of what I originally posted.

Eric Young hitting in the 5 hole. This is the AI's recommended lineup due to some fatigued players... in the normal lineups that I have set (when everyone is fresh/not fatigued), he's in the 7 or 8 hole.

He is a low power guy (35 power- and I have scouting on 100% accuracy), whereas all 3 guys hitting further down in the order have more HR, higher SLG, and better power rating (Bichette, Castellano, Cockrell)
And actually just happened again, only this time Eric Young is at clean-up in the 4 hole!

Obviously I can just go ahead and manually change it in this case, however it tells me that other teams (and I do see this often) will have some unrealistic lineups.

Not sure why this happens or what others do about it? Hopefully it can be worked out/fixed by the developers. I would assume teams will "compete" better and win/lose more realistically when they have proper line ups (e.g. one of their best hitters in the 4 hole, like has been throughout MLB history).
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Old 04-10-2022, 11:41 AM   #14
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I mean, this doesn't actually seem that egregious to me? Young's OPS is about the same as Cockrell's, and much higher than Bichette's.

He has the 3rd-highest OBP on the team. I'd certainly have him hitting in the top 5 if I were making the lineup.
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Old 04-10-2022, 11:51 AM   #15
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On the other hand, I was watching the Astros-Angels game last night and the Astros, with what it would be hard to argue is a weak overall offense, had Niko Goodrum batting third. As a Detroit Tigers fan, I like Goodrum, but his career big league slash line is .229/.303/.395, so I'm pretty sure if we saw the OOTP AI do something like this we would think that was evidence of a major flaw in the game.

And former Astros manager A.J. Hinch has hit Jeimer Candelario in the cleanup slot in the first two games for the Detroit Tigers this season. Now Jeimer is a fine hitter, and in my mind (again, as a Tiger fan) an underrated player, but he isn't what you would call a prototypical cleanup hitter. The Tigers recently acquired Austin Meadows, who I think most of us would probably think is a more likely cleanup hitter in this lineup.

Not suggesting that these concerns are unfounded and these are just a few isolated real-life examples, but I am suggesting that odd lineup choices aren't exclusive to the OOTP AI but also happen, likely more often than we notice, in MLB as well.
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Old 04-16-2022, 11:18 AM   #16
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Luckily, Charlie Montoyo exists to make the OOTP AI Lineups look pristine and impeccable. Today's Jays lineup is up there with the most confounding AI Lineups I've ever seen in OOTP.
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Old 04-16-2022, 11:52 AM   #17
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Luckily, Charlie Montoyo exists to make the OOTP AI Lineups look pristine and impeccable. Today's Jays lineup is up there with the most confounding AI Lineups I've ever seen in OOTP.
Many Blue Jays fans are not happy with him:

https://www.bluejaysmessageboard.com...harlie-Montoyo
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Old 04-16-2022, 11:57 AM   #18
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And actually just happened again, only this time Eric Young is at clean-up in the 4 hole!

Obviously I can just go ahead and manually change it in this case, however it tells me that other teams (and I do see this often) will have some unrealistic lineups.

Not sure why this happens or what others do about it? Hopefully it can be worked out/fixed by the developers. I would assume teams will "compete" better and win/lose more realistically when they have proper line ups (e.g. one of their best hitters in the 4 hole, like has been throughout MLB history).
There's a longstanding thing where some managers prefer to use the 5 hole as a secondary leadoff slot rather than as a backup cleanup hitter. The thinking is that the 5 hole hits leadoff or 2nd in the 2nd inning most of the time. This isn't universal and i think I'd prefer to put Young in a different part of the order but there is some logic behind this.
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Old 04-16-2022, 07:29 PM   #19
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It’s possible different managers can prefer different lineups also. I’ve never seen anything way out of wack that I can remember (other than the old catcher hitting 2 bug)
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Old 04-16-2022, 07:54 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trav876 View Post
Has anybody noticed- and is there a way to fix this- that the AI makes some really dumb lineups quite often.

For example, guys hitting in the cleanup hole with 0 homeruns ... or poor stats, while the "best" hitter for example might be hitting 6th or 7th.

I know it can be different (and even realistic) to have this happen early on in the season, maybe based on past performance, etc. But I'm noticing it well into my seasons. And when I let my manager choose the lineups, he does the same thing quite often.

My #'s are set pretty normally (player AI evaluation settings)- in fact, I even have tried skewing them more toward "current season" at 25/47/18/10

47% current season, 25%, ratings, previous year at 18%, 2 years ago at 10%

And it really shouldn't matter whether I have lineups set for "traditional" versus "sabermetric" should it? When terrible hitters are in the 3 or 4 hole late into the season...traditional or sabermetric shouldn't be making that choice.

It just seems pretty unrealistic, even if a manager say, favors certain players, etc.

Eric Young (speedy, contact guy, with no power) wouldn't be hitting clean up in real life, ever...I don't care who the manager is, or what era baseball is being played. Yet I've seen that exact example, and many similar ones, throughout my play of OOTP 22.

Am I missing something? Is anyone else noticing this? And what have you done about it?
What are the records of these teams, and where are they rated in runs scored.
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