Was Babe Ruth Really a Two-Way Player?

[Eugene Church]

I am truly excited by Shohei Otani and his great experience.... and I hate to rain on everybody's parade... but after a little research, I discovered that IMHO Babe Ruth was not a real two-way player... he only pitched and played the field half of 1918 and most of 1919.

The Yankees only used him as a position player beginning in the 1920 season... he was only rarely used as a pitcher, probably only when the game was out of hand and he just filled in to save a pitcher... or perhaps he did it just for fun.

Batting seem to put a stop to this Pitching career... please note how his pitching stats suffered the more he played two ways... he was a better pitcher in '16 and '17 for the Red Sox than he was in '18 and '19

Would appreciate your comments... am I all wet in my observation of the Babe's two-way career?

The jury is still out on Ohtani... we will have to see if he can do both and do well at each spot season after season.

There might be no such thing as a successful two-way player.

Time will tell.

[RchW]

Totally agree Eugene. Ruth was a very good hitting pitcher who transitioned to a position player who pitched a little and then a full time OF. It doesn't change Ruth's greatness and it is way too early to say if Ohtani will do more than 2-4 seasons at both skills

[jokerhusky1129]

The 1930 game I heard was nothing more than a publicity stunt. He had quit pitching long before that.

[NoOne]

He was held back by simple and dogmatic minds of the time. the man was a great pitcher too.. total waste not using him. throwing and batting are 2 significantly different motions, plus you don't have to throw the ball more than a handful of times if you are considerate of a 2-way players needs in warm-up.

1919 he started 15gs/17 pitching appearances and ~130 total games played. they probably didn't do a whole lot of doubling up of duties. must have done some though, otherwise the math adds up to a 167 game season (*154g then?) if he did not do some batting between those GS. (132-15 + (15*4) = 167g roughly and that assumes no day off after the last GS... which could add another few days, if you wanted to)

[MightyVotto]

He really only did the two-way thing in 1918 - 1919 with the Sox. His pitching suffered a good bit once he started to play more in the outfield. He was one of the best pitchers in the league from 1915 - 1918 and always had the reputation as a pitcher who could really hit.

Once the Yankees bought him, they made the decision to make him a full time outfielder. There's an interview with Tris Speaker where he thought it was a big mistake and that Ruth wouldn't be able to handle playing every day. Guess Ruth showed him.

He only pitched a handful of times for the Yankees and those were publicity stunts.

[DB930]

The last true 2-way player was Guy Hecker of the 1880s Louisville Eclipse.

[NoOne]

i think only one of those years he pitched he got to ~500ab. and that was part time starter too..

if you can't do both it'll be a burden for sure. not jsut about ruth but nowadays too...

need a 6th starter every once in a while on your active roster constantly. playing baseball isn't that hard on you.. it's a whole lot of standing around, lol. (excludes catcher). if they can't do it they are "fat" or something else of their own accord. maybe don't drink till 5am and your nose in the booger sugar or worse.

pitchers have to do something ~100+ times that the human body wasn't naturally made to do.. .throw a ball 95mph, lol. much different than a fielder. OF might not be optimal for that situation as they have to gun it the next day on occassion and during the healing process.

(just liek working out.. you let the muscles heal and thats when you get stronger.. if you don't you actualy get weaker.. that's why you need days between lifting weights or you will damage yourself in the long-term.. basically just be a ball of unhealed scar tissue with no strength because it simply tears too easily)

taear it the right amount...let it heal, re-tear.. = stronger muscles. "good" scar tissue is good muscle.

[Aumakua]

Ohtani will pick one or the other in the next couple years, I guarantee it.
If he hits well (like all-star type numbers) he will quit pitching, if he doesn't I think he will become a full time pitcher.

simple reason is increased odds of injury, do you want your star pitching playing 2-3 days when he is not pitching and potentially getting hurt? or your star fielder/hitter pitching just because they are pretty good but that gives them a huge odds increase for injury as well.

and technically, what is 2-way? because maybe I am wrong but aren't the Angels just using him as DH, is that really 2-way? in OOTP they actually have the guys playing in the field. In my mind a true 2 way player would have to play in the field as well. (I know he can play OF, but Angels are obviously thinking injury risk as well). So WS game in NL park, would he play in the field or just pinch hit?

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by NoOne

He was held back by simple and dogmatic minds of the time. the man was a great pitcher too.. total waste not using him. throwing and batting are 2 significantly different motions, plus you don't have to throw the ball more than a handful of times if you are considerate of a 2-way players needs in warm-up.

1919 he started 15gs/17 pitching appearances and ~130 total games played. they probably didn't do a whole lot of doubling up of duties. must have done some though, otherwise the math adds up to a 167 game season (*154g then?) if he did not do some batting between those GS. (132-15 + (15*4) = 167g roughly and that assumes no day off after the last GS... which could add another few days, if you wanted to)

I don't know that I buy this. Even in Ruth's time it was understood that you had to rest a starting pitcher's arm between games, and that may include the wear you get from throwing the ball in from left field. Sure, lobbing it in after a pop fly might add no strain but can the same be said for having to throw it in hard to catch a guy trying to go from first to third on a single? You can't just concede those or else teams will start playing to that and your fielder becomes a liability. But on the flip side, the day after a guy pitches especially you probably don't want him throwing much at *all* if memory serves.

Maybe first base or DH would be a better place to put a guy like (although at first you still have that issue of throwing to other bases) but Ruth, of course, played 40 years before the DH became a thing and first base was manned throughout Ruth's career by an inner circle Hall of Famer and a very good player with a reputation for good defense. On top of that, Ruth IIRC told Boston he didn't particularly want to pitch anymore.

Aside from chucking tradition down the road - and it should be pointed out that what Ruth did in 1920 was completely unprecedented except sort of by his own 1919 season, so the Yankees were already riding the wave of ignoring tradition - there's actually not nearly as good of a reason to start Ruth and pitch him every day as people might think. At best, you might use him for a spot start or two when you really needed to win a game or something, and that's more or less how the Yankees used Ruth until he was far enough removed from pitching that they didn't trust him anymore.

Ohtani is a different matter altogether because he *can* play DH on off days. The Angels are still limiting how much he's playing for them, in part because they're not sure how much of a major league hitter he is, but also, I'm sure, because they're not sure how to handle his post-SP fatigue.

[NoOne]

I'll be honest, i thoguht it was 1B and SP... OF may have some more tangible concerns... and the dogmatic thoguht was more bout how he only did it -half-way.. and only 1 or 2 years when it was clear the entire time he was an amazing hitter.

i'd think you can avoid throwing much as a 1b - they dont' have to make a tough throw on average <1/game, i bet. and someone else can play catch in the warm-ups between innings etc. minimized effect while gaining 2 players for 1... the benefits domino into other aspects of the roster too. not saying zero negative effect, but hte net would be a positive for sure.

dh would be perfect for a day 1 or 2 after the start.. they do work out between starts.. however that existing 'rest' would mesh as far as a safety protocol... adhere to that as much as you can but adjust to 2-way needs. if they don't throw at all the next day, then dh that day... whenever they begin to throw again, it'd be safe to use them in the field where they may have to throw 2-3 times in 3 hours - maybe throw "5" less pitches in the bullpen session or long-toss etc.. (positions where you hve to gun it more often in a game would need greater care and concern)

I think you found the real reason he choose anaheim instead of LA.. or al LA over nl LA lol.. whatever that schizophrenic team wants to clal themselves nowadays.. probably jsut a scheme to sell more jerseys lol.

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

I don't know that I buy this. Even in Ruth's time it was understood that you had to rest a starting pitcher's arm between games, and that may include the wear you get from throwing the ball in from left field. Sure, lobbing it in after a pop fly might add no strain but can the same be said for having to throw it in hard to catch a guy trying to go from first to third on a single? You can't just concede those or else teams will start playing to that and your fielder becomes a liability. But on the flip side, the day after a guy pitches especially you probably don't want him throwing much at *all* if memory serves.

Maybe first base or DH would be a better place to put a guy like (although at first you still have that issue of throwing to other bases) but Ruth, of course, played 40 years before the DH became a thing and first base was manned throughout Ruth's career by an inner circle Hall of Famer and a very good player with a reputation for good defense. On top of that, Ruth IIRC told Boston he didn't particularly want to pitch anymore.

Aside from chucking tradition down the road - and it should be pointed out that what Ruth did in 1920 was completely unprecedented except sort of by his own 1919 season, so the Yankees were already riding the wave of ignoring tradition - there's actually not nearly as good of a reason to start Ruth and pitch him every day as people might think. At best, you might use him for a spot start or two when you really needed to win a game or something, and that's more or less how the Yankees used Ruth until he was far enough removed from pitching that they didn't trust him anymore.

Ohtani is a different matter altogether because he *can* play DH on off days. The Angels are still limiting how much he's playing for them, in part because they're not sure how much of a major league hitter he is, but also, I'm sure, because they're not sure how to handle his post-SP fatigue.

[Matt Arnold]

IMO, Ruth counts as a 2-way guy because he did both at the major league level, was successful at both, and only really fully transitioned because it became apparent that his hitting far surpassed his pitching. And as mentioned, he did have a couple seasons where he legit did both.

But it is true that he really only was a 2-way guy for about 2 years. Of course, Ohtani has only been a 2-way guy for about 3 weeks, so the jury's still out on him. I do expect that at some point he'll switch to one or the other full-time, either due to talent level or injury, but exciting to see him so far put on a show doing both.

[drowssap]

Originally Posted by jokerhusky1129

The 1930 game I heard was nothing more than a publicity stunt. He had quit pitching long before that.

Publicity stunt or not, that was a pretty good game he pitched! He went the distance, giving up only 3 runs, and won 9-3.

He also batted 3rd. Got to be the only pitcher to bat 3rd in a game, right?

https://www.baseball-reference.com/b...93009280.shtml

[NoOne]

NBL SP usually have a bit of a transition period. they use 6man rotations.. we'll see how he does in june-july-august as the season wears on.

i hope they let him do his thing and not give up too soon due to 1-2 bad performances. he's new to the league.. all sorts of obsacles will cloud feedback this first year or 2. not to mention it's just 1 person... talk about a small sample.

it would be a true shame if 1 person's success or failure prevents further experimentation.

[Zorro]

I don’t understand why he could not DH every game and pitch every 5th game. (If he stays good at both) What injury factor is there for a guy who bats 4 times a game and then sits? ..............Z

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by NoOne

I'll be honest, i thoguht it was 1B and SP... OF may have some more tangible concerns... and the dogmatic thoguht was more bout how he only did it -half-way.. and only 1 or 2 years when it was clear the entire time he was an amazing hitter.

Yeah, the 1B for most of Ruth's tenure in New York was Lou Gehrig. For the first part of his career it was Wally Pipp, who is mostly known as the guy who got a headache and gave up his job to Gehrig but who was a very good player in his own right. The All-Star Game didn't start until the 1930s but had it begun earlier Pipp probably would have been in a couple at least. He finished his career with 1941 hits and had the reputation for being a good hitting 1B in an era when there was a bit more variance at that position and therefore a good fielder was probably worth a bit more.

Also, I can't believe I spaced out on this but Ruth played about half his career OF games in right, which makes some sense given that he was a converted pitcher after all. Needless to say, you're not going to want to risk blowing out a guy's arm throwing from RF to third if he also happens to be something insane like 8% of the entire league's offense (which he was close to being in 1920 if memory serves). We mostly remember him today as a fat power hitter, which really only describes his later years. In fact, he had pretty solid speed himself, although like a lot of players in his era he was a bit too aggressive for it to be a plus on the basepaths. The 1926 World Series ended with him being thrown out trying to steal second base.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by drowssap

Publicity stunt or not, that was a pretty good game he pitched! He went the distance, giving up only 3 runs, and won 9-3.

He also batted 3rd. Got to be the only pitcher to bat 3rd in a game, right?

https://www.baseball-reference.com/b...93009280.shtml

Maybe but Ruth batted 4th in several starts.

Babe Ruth: When Ruth was a full-time pitcher, through 1917, he batted ninth. But starting in 1918 he saw more action as an outfielder than as a pitcher. In 1918 he batted cleanup while pitching 11 times and seventh once. (He batted ninth in seven of his starts.) In 1919 he batted cleanup in 13 of his mound starts and ninth in the other two. (Ruth led the American League in homers in both 1918 and 1919; I wonder if he’s the only player who ever led his league in homers during a season in which he started a game batting ninth?) Ruth started four games as a pitcher for the Yankees, during the years when he was a full-time outfielder, and batted third or fourth in all of them. The Babe is the only player in the 1916-2012 database who batted cleanup in a game he started as a pitcher and may be the only man in major league history to pitch a shutout while batting cleanup, his last major league shutout in 1918. Babe is also the only starting pitcher in postseason history, at least going back to the first World Series in 1903, to bat anywhere other than ninth; he hit sixth for the Red Sox in Game 4 of the 1918 World Series (he drove in Boston’s first two runs and was the winning pitcher). Ruth pitched the first eight innings of that game and spent the ninth inning in left field as Bullet Joe Bush finished the game on the mound; the only other player to pitch and play the field in the same postseason game, going back to 1903, was Cardinals’ reliever Todd Worrell, who finished Game 6 of the 1987 National League Championship Series in right field after pitching an inning. ADDED 10/23/15: Cubs manager Joe Maddon put his pitcher in the eighth spot four times in the 2015 postseason; details to follow.

https://prestonjg.wordpress.com/2013...it-most-often/

Based on this I may have to backtrack on my comments about Ruth not being a 2-way player. He didn't control his usage.

[NoOne]

Originally Posted by Zorro

I donÂ’t understand why he could not DH every game and pitch every 5th game. (If he stays good at both) What injury factor is there for a guy who bats 4 times a game and then sits? ..............Z

no dh then. but definteiyl possible now.

i don't bleive any statistically significant cause for concern for dh is possible.. .time will tell

comepltetely different motion on the arm and not just 1 arm etc. still strain on shoulder, but significantly less and a more natural movement (more along the lines of underhand)

fun fact, pro pitchers can probably throw with the sme force on average with an underhand motion.. but that would be too girly

you'd have to develop the mechanics and different muscle groups related.. they are larger muscles too. probably less injuries.

other tnagible reasons it might not work as well: accuracy, spin, faster/slower recognition form batter's point of view etc. velo wouldn't be the problem.

[Zorro]

Originally Posted by NoOne

no dh then. but definteiyl possible now.

.

Yeah, I meant Ohtani. ..........Z

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by NoOne

1919 he started 15gs/17 pitching appearances and ~130 total games played. they probably didn't do a whole lot of doubling up of duties. must have done some though, otherwise the math adds up to a 167 game season (*154g then?) if he did not do some batting between those GS. (132-15 + (15*4) = 167g roughly and that assumes no day off after the last GS... which could add another few days, if you wanted to)

According to Retrosheet's stats page for Ruth, in 1919 he started 106 games in LF, 15 games as a pitcher, and 5 games at 1B. He played the entire game at a given position as follows: 96 games in LF, 12 games as pitcher, 4 games at 1B.

Here is Retrosheet's daily fielding log for Ruth for the 1919 season. There are box scores available for every game. (Play-by-play data, however. is not available.)

[Shackdaddy]

The real amazing thing about Babe Ruth is simply this. Even though he quit playing over 80 years ago, he is still to this day THE greatest baseball player of all time. When he was a full-time pitcher, he was considered the best left-handed pitcher in the American League at the time. He would’ve been a Hall of Famer as a pitcher if the had stayed a pitcher and not become the Sultan of Swat. He holds the record for the second longest consecutive scoreless innings streak in the World Series. Whitey Ford beat the Babe’s record in 1961.