Leadership is nice but... how about experience (and maybe professionalism too)

MrBojangles · 05-29-2016, 11:57 PM

I do like the personality traits and how that adds flavor to the game.

But, beyond personality, in real life there is something to be said for experience. Yes, older athletes may be a step slower, but experience in tough situations, or in the pressure of play off series, has value in real life. In fact, younger athletes, fortunate enough to be on teams successful enough to get into playoffs, gain this experience early in their careers.

Think of the upstart young team versus the team that's "been here before."

Experience is no guarantee of victory, but it can help.

I haven't noticed an equivalent to this in OOTP.

Is it here and I missed it?

Honorable_Pawn · 05-30-2016, 09:33 AM

I do not think OOTP models experience except for fielding. I think experience is modeled within the rating skills.

MrBojangles · 05-30-2016, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Honorable_Pawn

I do not think OOTP models experience except for fielding. I think experience is modeled within the rating skills.

My guess is exactly that. But, the ratings skills decline over time, as a function of aging. Experience wouldn't decline overtime. If anything, it would increase.
It is this "experience factor" that helps to make a veteran player more valuable and I don't see that represented in the game.

Honorable_Pawn · 05-30-2016, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBojangles

My guess is exactly that. But, the ratings skills decline over time, as a function of aging. Experience wouldn't decline overtime. If anything, it would increase.
It is this "experience factor" that helps to make a veteran player more valuable and I don't see that represented in the game.

Good point.

Sweed · 05-30-2016, 12:55 PM

Yeah, I don't think there is any experience like this currently in OOTP. It will make for an interesting discussion, I'm sure

Without spending a lot of time thinking about it here are some of my initial thoughts...

How does Markus measure and implement this? Does everyone that has "been there before" get a bump in performance? Or does everyone that has "never been there before" get a decrease in performance?

Seems a bit like the of the old "clutch" rating to me. Sure clutch doesn't exist but I think there are players that under-perform in high stress situations. So instead of clutch you ask for experience to make a difference in actual performance.
While I agree it "can", it certainly varies from player to player and is almost impossible to implement without some type of real life data. Perhaps there is a study of how first time young players perform compared to vets in stressful situations that could be used as a modifier? Even then the game is going to penalize every young or inexperienced player? There will never be a young player that is a "natural" except by chance that the modifier didn't go against him in any of his "young years"?

Maybe with enough data a modifier could be built that would scale with each "high stress" situation making it go lower over time. But is that limited to playoff games or does in include a tight pennant race? Minus some hard data I think I'd rather have the game continue as it is now using only the player's ratings and let the chips fall where they may.

Again I'm not disagreeing with your original thought. It would be very cool if some type of experience could be implemented in a realistic way by Markus and co. Who knows maybe it's already in the works

MrBojangles · 05-30-2016, 03:30 PM

Sweed - you bring up a lot of great points and I see your wisdom.

But, those variables you describe are part of what makes this game so great. I play with fictional rosters, so I'm not going to be comparing, say MadBum and his "clutch" performance in real life to a game version of him.

But, like leadership, work ethic and the other personality traits that are in the game, there is something to be said for experience - and for the randomness (human element) of how different players will accumulate experience and put it to use.

I just think that, if it were in the game, than it could help things such as team chemistry and even performance.

It would also create a variable to give added value to experienced older guys who maybe don't swing quite as well as they used to.

chazzycat · 05-31-2016, 03:40 PM

There was an interesting piece on Fangraphs recently addressing the question of experience and how it benefits players. The takeaway seems to be that while their overall production generally declines as players get older, they are also less prone to wild swings over the course of the season. They get more consistent, and less prone to hot streaks & slumps.

Are Veterans Better at Slump-Busting? | FanGraphs Baseball

Elysian Fields · 06-01-2016, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Honorable_Pawn

I do not think OOTP models experience except for fielding. I think experience is modeled within the rating skills.

How is fielding development and decline modeled without a potential setting?

PSUColonel · 06-01-2016, 03:13 PM

Experience should be tied to playing time. So should development. I can't stand that players develop differently just because they are on the 40 man roster, even if the rarely ever play.

Lukas Berger · 06-01-2016, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

players develop differently just because they are on the 40 man roster, even if the rarely ever play.

I don't think that's the case at all, unless you know something I don't

Izz · 06-01-2016, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chazzycat

There was an interesting piece on Fangraphs recently addressing the question of experience and how it benefits players. The takeaway seems to be that while their overall production generally declines as players get older, they are also less prone to wild swings over the course of the season. They get more consistent, and less prone to hot streaks & slumps.

Are Veterans Better at Slump-Busting? | FanGraphs Baseball

I wonder if this is already modeled in OotP. Often, players eyes will get better as they age, even if other ratings decrease.

Honorable_Pawn · 06-01-2016, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Izz

I wonder if this is already modeled in OotP. Often, players eyes will get better as they age, even if other ratings decrease.

It is.

PSUColonel · 06-01-2016, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lukasberger

I don't think that's the case at all, unless you know something I don't

I believe players on the 40 man roster develop at the same rate whether they play or not, or are on a major league roster or not.

kq76 · 06-02-2016, 08:02 AM

At first I wasn't going to post anything in this thread because, while I'm a big proponent of personality in OOTP, I didn't really see what could be done with experience. I also figured that experience is implicitly factored into OOTP because as players age, play more, etc their ratings are changing, certain ones hopefully getting better like eye/discipline, while others like speed understandably mostly just decreasing.

However, since I first saw this thread I've noticed that while watching Jays games the (ex-player) announcers brought up a few times how experienced players really help young players learn the game, that young players often listen more to their teammates than they do their coaches and they listen even more to the superstars and the eldest players. Of course we've probably all heard that from time to time and seen young and old players talking to each other a lot, but I never really thought about how it could apply to OOTP. Now I do.

I don't think a player's experience should affect his own ratings development, but I definitely think we could have a player's experience be a positive influence on other players' development. You could also come up with another personality to offset that positive influence with possible negative influence on other players' development, maybe call it professionalism.

Anyone · 06-02-2016, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kq76

I don't think a player's experience should affect his own ratings development, but I definitely think we could have a player's experience be a positive influence on other players' development. You could also come up with another personality to offset that positive influence with possible negative influence on other players' development, maybe call it professionalism.

I agree. I think as far as a player's experience helping his own performance, that's simply modeled (and expressed in real life) by the fact there is a growth period up until about 27. On a purely physical level, players would probably peak around 22. The fact that players continue to get better after age 22 is likely all experience-related.

However, I can totally buy that veterans can help young players develop by mentoring them. I don't think that even requires a new trait, more like just adding that leadership works better when the leader is older. That may already be in the game, in fact. I've seen in morale reports players being unhappy due to a team lacking "veteran leadership." But if it isn't in the game, it would be worth adding.

05-29-2016, 11:57 PM	#1
MrBojangles All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: low and inside Posts: 568	Leadership is nice but... how about experience (and maybe professionalism too) I do like the personality traits and how that adds flavor to the game. But, beyond personality, in real life there is something to be said for experience. Yes, older athletes may be a step slower, but experience in tough situations, or in the pressure of play off series, has value in real life. In fact, younger athletes, fortunate enough to be on teams successful enough to get into playoffs, gain this experience early in their careers. Think of the upstart young team versus the team that's "been here before." Experience is no guarantee of victory, but it can help. I haven't noticed an equivalent to this in OOTP. Is it here and I missed it?

05-30-2016, 09:33 AM	#2
Honorable_Pawn Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Tampa Bay Posts: 6,407	I do not think OOTP models experience except for fielding. I think experience is modeled within the rating skills. __________________ PBA Quickstart for OOTP Background Images Collection All PBA games broadcast live on Steam.

06-02-2016, 08:02 AM	#14
kq76 Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 11,799	At first I wasn't going to post anything in this thread because, while I'm a big proponent of personality in OOTP, I didn't really see what could be done with experience. I also figured that experience is implicitly factored into OOTP because as players age, play more, etc their ratings are changing, certain ones hopefully getting better like eye/discipline, while others like speed understandably mostly just decreasing. However, since I first saw this thread I've noticed that while watching Jays games the (ex-player) announcers brought up a few times how experienced players really help young players learn the game, that young players often listen more to their teammates than they do their coaches and they listen even more to the superstars and the eldest players. Of course we've probably all heard that from time to time and seen young and old players talking to each other a lot, but I never really thought about how it could apply to OOTP. Now I do. I don't think a player's experience should affect his own ratings development, but I definitely think we could have a player's experience be a positive influence on other players' development. You could also come up with another personality to offset that positive influence with possible negative influence on other players' development, maybe call it professionalism. __________________ My OOTP Wishlist \| My FAQ List OOTP Wiki \| Your Recommended Team Nicknames, By City (A Crowdsourced Project)

05-30-2016, 12:55 PM	#5
Sweed Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 6,736	Yeah, I don't think there is any experience like this currently in OOTP. It will make for an interesting discussion, I'm sure Without spending a lot of time thinking about it here are some of my initial thoughts... How does Markus measure and implement this? Does everyone that has "been there before" get a bump in performance? Or does everyone that has "never been there before" get a decrease in performance? Seems a bit like the of the old "clutch" rating to me. Sure clutch doesn't exist but I think there are players that under-perform in high stress situations. So instead of clutch you ask for experience to make a difference in actual performance. While I agree it "can", it certainly varies from player to player and is almost impossible to implement without some type of real life data. Perhaps there is a study of how first time young players perform compared to vets in stressful situations that could be used as a modifier? Even then the game is going to penalize every young or inexperienced player? There will never be a young player that is a "natural" except by chance that the modifier didn't go against him in any of his "young years"? Maybe with enough data a modifier could be built that would scale with each "high stress" situation making it go lower over time. But is that limited to playoff games or does in include a tight pennant race? Minus some hard data I think I'd rather have the game continue as it is now using only the player's ratings and let the chips fall where they may. Again I'm not disagreeing with your original thought. It would be very cool if some type of experience could be implemented in a realistic way by Markus and co. Who knows maybe it's already in the works

05-30-2016, 03:30 PM	#6
MrBojangles All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: low and inside Posts: 568	Sweed - you bring up a lot of great points and I see your wisdom. But, those variables you describe are part of what makes this game so great. I play with fictional rosters, so I'm not going to be comparing, say MadBum and his "clutch" performance in real life to a game version of him. But, like leadership, work ethic and the other personality traits that are in the game, there is something to be said for experience - and for the randomness (human element) of how different players will accumulate experience and put it to use. I just think that, if it were in the game, than it could help things such as team chemistry and even performance. It would also create a variable to give added value to experienced older guys who maybe don't swing quite as well as they used to.

05-31-2016, 03:40 PM	#7
chazzycat All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 1,685	There was an interesting piece on Fangraphs recently addressing the question of experience and how it benefits players. The takeaway seems to be that while their overall production generally declines as players get older, they are also less prone to wild swings over the course of the season. They get more consistent, and less prone to hot streaks & slumps. Are Veterans Better at Slump-Busting? \| FanGraphs Baseball

06-01-2016, 03:13 PM	#9
PSUColonel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 13,106	Experience should be tied to playing time. So should development. I can't stand that players develop differently just because they are on the 40 man roster, even if the rarely ever play.