Your Take: Is this Guy a HoF Starter?

Griever20 · 04-13-2016, 09:44 AM

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This starter was elected into the Hall in his 8th year on the ballot. I looked at him several times and did it once again... and removed him from the Hall because looking at his career, I don't like the career ERA and the guy had ONE year of an ERA under three.

Yes, that is a lot of strikeouts, but the amount of home runs made him a above average pitcher for most of the years, but a Hall of Famer?

Am I too nitpicky here?

GoPedro99 · 04-13-2016, 10:23 AM

id say no. however, it depends on the league totals. if the league ERA is 4.5 and the normal pitcher averages 150 K's a season then id say yes.

bwburke94 · 04-13-2016, 10:25 AM

Looking at that gray ink, he's in.

Assos · 04-13-2016, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwburke94

Looking at that gray ink, he's in.

I agree, gray is the new in! Not knowing your league averages. It is like a guy playing 15 years and hitting 150 homers and being put in for a home run king.

Matt Arnold · 04-13-2016, 10:39 AM

5 straight years as strikeout champion, and a 7 year stretch of 5 WAR or more every year, and I think he's a solid borderline candidate. Getting in in his 8th year is fair to me.

Griever20 · 04-13-2016, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoPedro99

id say no. however, it depends on the league totals. if the league ERA is 4.5 and the normal pitcher averages 150 K's a season then id say yes.

Good point I guess, in his era, the league average ERA was way up between 4.55 and 4.91 and regressed down to ~4.25 after he retired.

shipfb21 · 04-13-2016, 10:43 AM

in my opinion, hes a sure fire hall of famer. thats alot of strikeouts. i imagine he was probably the best strikeout pitcher within that 20 year period (including a few years before he came up n a few years after he retired) of ur league. combined with the low amount of walks n some really good whip years, he should b enshrined in the hall. he did also receive 85% of voters the year he was elected.

Griever20 · 04-13-2016, 10:55 AM

Ok I'm getting there... it seems like he pitched in an era of home run hitters AND was a bit flyball prone... but still was the best strikeout pitcher.

I'll mull over him a bit, but I think I will let him in just because he was the best starter between 1900 and 1920 and should represent that time frame in the Hall... and he will be the only starter for those years.

And there are three starters for the '20s and 30's in there, it's just that I was a bit sceptical about his ERA and home runs allowed

Thanks for the input... I still am a bit unsure of that Hall of Fame measurements and started reading up those like an hour ago... Looking at what Grey Ink does effectively, I see where you are going.

Assos · 04-13-2016, 10:59 AM

As your league evolves, the gray numbers will change. The longer the history, the more exacting the target for a HOF will be. We have the luxury of living with 130+ years of baseball stats to make a HOF case, your league does not yet. And even with all of that history we still debate!

Griever20 · 04-13-2016, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Assos

As your league evolves, the gray numbers will change. The longer the history, the more exacting the target for a HOF will be. We have the luxury of living with 130+ years of baseball stats to make a HOF case, your league does not yet. And even with all of that history we still debate!

That is exactly why I'm looking into this a bit more, trying to find out what HoF measurement averages fit for me. I will eventually look back and induct, or in this case re-induct guys if I feel a guy fell through the cracks.

Padreman · 04-13-2016, 11:19 AM

He's a star but not HOF material

shipfb21 · 04-13-2016, 11:22 AM

i hope ur not letting this guy slip through the cracks... his numbers speak for themselves. it seems the voters agree, as he had 85% of voters cast his name.

Coltrane · 04-13-2016, 12:02 PM

I vote IN

VARoadstter · 04-13-2016, 02:06 PM

85% of the vote tells you a lot about context. Not getting in until year 8 still more. I'm typically on the strict side for Hof voting but it looks like he probably stood out significantly from his peers. Also, a nice long productive career helps, too.

Assos · 04-13-2016, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VARoadstter

85% of the vote tells you a lot about context. Not getting in until year 8 still more. I'm typically on the strict side for Hof voting but it looks like he probably stood out significantly from his peers. Also, a nice long productive career helps, too.

He angered a number of reporters who black balled him in the first few years on the ballot.

ttaka808 · 04-13-2016, 04:25 PM

I'm letting him in especially if he pitched in a hitter's era, but I also tend to be more generous when voting for HOF.

actionjackson · 04-13-2016, 04:51 PM

Yes he should be in. Not all HoFers are Cy Young or Walter Johnson. He's a borderline candidate, but I say he's borderline in. Look at the 119 ERA+. Forget about the fact his ERA is over 4. That's not on him, that's the league environment. He's 19% better than the average ERA. Look at the tremendous strikeout to walk ratio of 6.37 to 1. That's outstanding! Yeah, he doesn't have 200 Wins and his ERA is over 4, but maybe that's what passes for a lower tier HoFer in your league, where it looks like the offense is running a bit hot (to say the least).

DH523 · 04-13-2016, 04:52 PM

I'd give him the nod for the following reasons...

- He seemed to be pitching in a hitter's era yet has a lot of sub 4.00 ERA years to his credit.
- His WHIP is insane considering the HRs he allowed. The strikeouts are fantastic, of course, but those walks are crazy elite good. Seriously, issuing 30-35 walks in 220 IP? Crazy consistent control.
- Had 4 seasons of MVP Caliber according to WAR and 4 more at All-Star level. Was clearly a dominant and very good pitcher.
- Went 73-42 over a 4 year stretch. Some of his W/L records suggest his teams weren't very good at times.
- Started his career late and was above average looking at his ERA+. Likely would have ended up around 215-230 wins if he had started his career around 20-21 years old.

Syd Thrift · 04-13-2016, 05:05 PM

He looks like a really close comp to Wes Ferrell:

Wes Ferrell Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com

A little worse in his prime but a bit better overall (60 career WAR vs. 48 for Ferrell). Also a career ERA over 4 that is deceptively high considering his environment. There are actually a decent number of stat guys out there who do in fact think that Ferrell ought to have had a better shot at the Hall (ironically, his brother Rick *is* in the Hall, as a catcher, but probably doesn't deserve to be there, so while the Veteran's Committee got the general number of people from the family right, they whiffed on the actual person).

I don't think you kill anything by leaving him out but he's probably on the short list of the best pitchers in the history of your league to not be in the Hall.

actionjackson · 04-13-2016, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

He looks like a really close comp to Wes Ferrell:

Wes Ferrell Statistics and History | Baseball-Reference.com

A little worse in his prime but a bit better overall (60 career WAR vs. 48 for Ferrell). Also a career ERA over 4 that is deceptively high considering his environment. There are actually a decent number of stat guys out there who do in fact think that Ferrell ought to have had a better shot at the Hall (ironically, his brother Rick *is* in the Hall, as a catcher, but probably doesn't deserve to be there, so while the Veteran's Committee got the general number of people from the family right, they whiffed on the actual person).

I don't think you kill anything by leaving him out but he's probably on the short list of the best pitchers in the history of your league to not be in the Hall.

Don't forget about Ferrell's ability with the bat, which brings him up to 61.6 WAR.

04-13-2016, 09:44 AM	#1
Griever20 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Dortmund, Germany Posts: 3,727	Your Take: Is this Guy a HoF Starter? This starter was elected into the Hall in his 8th year on the ballot. I looked at him several times and did it once again... and removed him from the Hall because looking at his career, I don't like the career ERA and the guy had ONE year of an ERA under three. Yes, that is a lot of strikeouts, but the amount of home runs made him a above average pitcher for most of the years, but a Hall of Famer? Am I too nitpicky here? __________________ The Montreal Expos... Exposing the New MLB? MLB 2015 - Being the Brewmaster(ended) MLB 2013: The Blue Jays That Never Were(concluded)

04-13-2016, 10:55 AM	#8
Griever20 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Dortmund, Germany Posts: 3,727	Ok I'm getting there... it seems like he pitched in an era of home run hitters AND was a bit flyball prone... but still was the best strikeout pitcher. I'll mull over him a bit, but I think I will let him in just because he was the best starter between 1900 and 1920 and should represent that time frame in the Hall... and he will be the only starter for those years. And there are three starters for the '20s and 30's in there, it's just that I was a bit sceptical about his ERA and home runs allowed Thanks for the input... I still am a bit unsure of that Hall of Fame measurements and started reading up those like an hour ago... Looking at what Grey Ink does effectively, I see where you are going. __________________ The Montreal Expos... Exposing the New MLB? MLB 2015 - Being the Brewmaster(ended) MLB 2013: The Blue Jays That Never Were(concluded)

04-13-2016, 11:19 AM	#11
Padreman Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2013 Location: Tijuana, Baja California, Mexico (formally San Diego, CA.) Posts: 4,138	He's a star but not HOF material __________________ Chargers= Despicable Traitors

04-13-2016, 10:23 AM	#2
GoPedro99 All Star Reserve Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 861	id say no. however, it depends on the league totals. if the league ERA is 4.5 and the normal pitcher averages 150 K's a season then id say yes.

04-13-2016, 10:25 AM	#3
bwburke94 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Belchertown, MA, USA Posts: 4,507	Looking at that gray ink, he's in.

04-13-2016, 10:39 AM	#5
Matt Arnold OOTP Developer Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Here and there Posts: 15,860	5 straight years as strikeout champion, and a 7 year stretch of 5 WAR or more every year, and I think he's a solid borderline candidate. Getting in in his 8th year is fair to me.

04-13-2016, 10:43 AM	#7
shipfb21 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 117	in my opinion, hes a sure fire hall of famer. thats alot of strikeouts. i imagine he was probably the best strikeout pitcher within that 20 year period (including a few years before he came up n a few years after he retired) of ur league. combined with the low amount of walks n some really good whip years, he should b enshrined in the hall. he did also receive 85% of voters the year he was elected.

04-13-2016, 10:59 AM	#9
Assos All Star Starter Join Date: May 2004 Location: Just on the fair side of the foul pole! Posts: 1,772	As your league evolves, the gray numbers will change. The longer the history, the more exacting the target for a HOF will be. We have the luxury of living with 130+ years of baseball stats to make a HOF case, your league does not yet. And even with all of that history we still debate!

04-13-2016, 11:22 AM	#12
shipfb21 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 117	i hope ur not letting this guy slip through the cracks... his numbers speak for themselves. it seems the voters agree, as he had 85% of voters cast his name.

04-13-2016, 12:02 PM	#13
Coltrane Minors (Triple A) Join Date: May 2015 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 228	I vote IN

04-13-2016, 02:06 PM	#14
VARoadstter Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 211	85% of the vote tells you a lot about context. Not getting in until year 8 still more. I'm typically on the strict side for Hof voting but it looks like he probably stood out significantly from his peers. Also, a nice long productive career helps, too.

04-13-2016, 04:25 PM	#16
ttaka808 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 278	I'm letting him in especially if he pitched in a hitter's era, but I also tend to be more generous when voting for HOF.

04-13-2016, 04:51 PM	#17
actionjackson Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Toronto, ON Posts: 6,181	Yes he should be in. Not all HoFers are Cy Young or Walter Johnson. He's a borderline candidate, but I say he's borderline in. Look at the 119 ERA+. Forget about the fact his ERA is over 4. That's not on him, that's the league environment. He's 19% better than the average ERA. Look at the tremendous strikeout to walk ratio of 6.37 to 1. That's outstanding! Yeah, he doesn't have 200 Wins and his ERA is over 4, but maybe that's what passes for a lower tier HoFer in your league, where it looks like the offense is running a bit hot (to say the least).

04-13-2016, 04:52 PM	#18
DH523 Bat Boy Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: USA Posts: 9	I'd give him the nod for the following reasons... - He seemed to be pitching in a hitter's era yet has a lot of sub 4.00 ERA years to his credit. - His WHIP is insane considering the HRs he allowed. The strikeouts are fantastic, of course, but those walks are crazy elite good. Seriously, issuing 30-35 walks in 220 IP? Crazy consistent control. - Had 4 seasons of MVP Caliber according to WAR and 4 more at All-Star level. Was clearly a dominant and very good pitcher. - Went 73-42 over a 4 year stretch. Some of his W/L records suggest his teams weren't very good at times. - Started his career late and was above average looking at his ERA+. Likely would have ended up around 215-230 wins if he had started his career around 20-21 years old.