Team throws random guy in lineup

Living Lejuhnd · 07-15-2013, 12:11 AM

I'm playing with the Mets and occasionally the Mets will throw Marlon Byrd in at leadoff when he has never led off a game in his career. Other than manually changing it are there other ways to make it so that they don't choose to put him in there?

I'm trying to be just GM but I get frustrated all the time when I see the manager making decisions that I wouldn't make!!

oman19 · 07-15-2013, 01:02 AM

Lol you sound like me. I think this is one area where sometimes when giving guys rest the AI makes weird line up choices.

I personally have gone the route of me setting the line up s and rotations but I let the manager decide when to give days rest for everyone and he gets to set the line up on those days. Then I just quick sim every game and go through the box score.

r0nster · 07-15-2013, 07:31 AM

I have had that happen as well but I did figure out the why it puts a player in the starting lineup. It is because a player you have starting is getting tired so it gives that player a day off and shakes up the lineup as well.

Pronkytonk · 07-15-2013, 07:45 AM

When playing the 2012 Indians, the game regularly put Travis Hafner in the leadoff spot - about the last guy anyone would like to see there. I think the game looks solely at the actual OBP the player has accomplished to find a backup leadoff hitter - something that has been around for several versions now IIRC.

r0nster · 07-15-2013, 08:19 AM

I know I seen somewhere that you can set up the AI to base the lineup on a couple various ways. I will endevor to find that configuration. However that would have to wait till I get home from work.

Syd Thrift · 07-15-2013, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by r0nster

I know I seen somewhere that you can set up the AI to base the lineup on a couple various ways. I will endevor to find that configuration. However that would have to wait till I get home from work.

There is a "traditional" and "sabermetric" dropdown choice on the AI settings screen. Otherwise, while putting a slow guy with a high OBP leadoff is still not necessarily conventional wisdom, it's not a *terrible* idea and a lot of teams have done it in the recent and not-so-recent past (for the latter, I think specifically of the Boston Red Sox of the 80s and early 90s, who used Hall of Fame slowpoke Wade Boggs at the #1 slot for extended periods of time). If memory serves, the leadoff slot is either the 2nd or 3rd most important position in the lineup and as such it makes more sense to bat a Travis Hafner there instead of 5th or 6th (or 3rd for that matter).

One thing that I *would* kind of like to see is the AI set up a lineup super-duper conventionally:

1. Speedster, ideally with a high OBP
2. Guy with "good bat control", and ideally a middle infielder (to spread out pinch-hitting opportunities)
3. Best pure hitter on the team
4. Best power hitter on the team
5. 2nd best power hitter OR a second lead-off type
6, 7. Other guys in general order of ability to hit for power
8. Catcher (historically, catchers were absolutely not supposed to play every day, and teams didn't like messing lineups up to pull the catcher, so even a team with a decent hitting catcher might bat him 8th)
9. Pitcher

In a DH league, the 6,7, and 8 guys are in the "best guys left" category, with 9 either being a weak-hitting fielder or as a secondary leadoff position.

Alternatively, if Markus were to provide us programmy types with an API we could use to plug in our own lineups and depth charts, we could do something about this ourselves, across eras and the like...

Living Lejuhnd · 07-15-2013, 10:37 AM

I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel here. I just want my leadoff guy to have a decent OBP and be somewhat of a threat on the bases. Marlon Byrd is just your average hitter. He doesn't threaten pitchers on the bases.

I've noticed it only happens to me as someone else mentioned when they're giving someone a rest. I just change the depth chart on those days and then have the manager recreate the lineup.

The Wolf · 07-15-2013, 10:47 AM

Having an optimized lineup for all 162 games on a season has been shown to be worth about only about one win over that season.

The Wolf · 07-15-2013, 10:49 AM

See The Definitive Sabermetric Guide to Managing - Beyond the Box Score

Syd Thrift · 07-15-2013, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Living Lejuhnd

I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel here. I just want my leadoff guy to have a decent OBP and be somewhat of a threat on the bases. Marlon Byrd is just your average hitter. He doesn't threaten pitchers on the bases.

I've noticed it only happens to me as someone else mentioned when they're giving someone a rest. I just change the depth chart on those days and then have the manager recreate the lineup.

Assuming we're talking about this year's Mets, I see two guys on the team who have double digit steals, which in and of itself doesn't even necessarily mean "pitcher threatening speed". You've got David Wright, who you're not going to hit leadoff (I mean, I could make a case for it but I would imagine that if the AI did this you'd be in here complaining about that) and Daniel Murphy, who would be my choice but who has his own issues (an Isolate Walks score of .033 for one). Byrd is by OPS+ the second best hitter on the team right now. I think I would personally try to bat him further down in the order (if I was going really sabermetric I'd bat Wright 2nd and Byrd cleanup) in order to take advantage of the power, but he a. does get on base more often than Murphy and b. there are just as many question marks with anyone else (like Lucas Duda, for instance).

In fact, if I was a Dusty Baker type I might even see Byrd's experience in the upper part of the order in Chicago and conclude that he has aptitude here.

Anyway, IRL being a threat on the basepaths is just one aspect of a leadoff hitter that conventional baseball likes. There's also:

- Finding a way to get on base however one can
- Getting into long at-bats with the pitcher so that the rest of the team can get an idea of what kind of stuff the man on the mound has on any given day
- Having enough speed to take extra bases on hits (which is not the same as getting a lot of steals)
- Being smart enough on the basepaths to not run his team into a lot of outs (that's one thing that Ichiro, while a classic burner, was great at)

RchW · 07-15-2013, 12:07 PM

Use 7-day lineups don't allow subs and you will get the lineup you want. However you must keep an eye on rest status and plug in subs manually. The beauty of that is plugging in your own subs ensures the batting order doesn't get reshuffled by the AI.

Leo_The_Lip · 07-15-2013, 12:07 PM

Syd's comments are my experience.

I have played with 'Sabremetric lineups' checked for many seasons. This often (like yesterday!) results in my slow-as-molasses second-string catcher batting leadoff when he is inserted to give the 5-hole hitting first stringer a rest. I look for OBP in my backups, and the AI 'Sabremetric' drools over these guys.

rpriske · 07-15-2013, 12:35 PM

Well, OBP is WAY more important than speed in a lead-off hitter...

... but as Wolf says, it actually doesn't matter very much.

Fyrestorm3 · 07-15-2013, 01:00 PM

Even if it did matter (it really doesn't), I've learned to be okay with my AI manager making wonky lineup decisions. Why? Because every other team in the league does it, too.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that an optimized lineup equated to 5 extra wins per year. If I can tell my manager "no, don't do that - here, use this guy instead," I'm adjusting my Win total by +5, while every other team in the league isn't. I don't want to game the AI this way.

Should lineup decision-making be tweaked as a whole for the AI? That's up for debate. But as the game stands right now, I have no problem letting my AI manager make decisions I wouldn't make, because every other team is doing exactly the same thing.

landru · 07-15-2013, 05:43 PM

I am mildly concerned about the weird leadoff hitters the AI comes up with, mainly with the catcher, for three reasons.

1. In just any situation this has rarely been done by a real life manager - so it sticks out as being odd.

2. For home team lineups the catcher has to take off his gear and quickly be the lead off hitter (I know it happens later in the game, but still...)

3. Does anybody want to see a dumpy catcher be the first batter gunning for a walk? *I* want to see a feisty, speedy batter revving up the offense! (No offense to any dumpy catchers in the audience)

SirMichaelJordan · 07-15-2013, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Living Lejuhnd

I'm playing with the Mets and occasionally the Mets will throw Marlon Byrd in at leadoff when he has never led off a game in his career. Other than manually changing it are there other ways to make it so that they don't choose to put him in there?

I'm trying to be just GM but I get frustrated all the time when I see the manager making decisions that I wouldn't make!!

Marlon Byrd batted leadoff for the Phils.

and there is also this: Chicago Cubs manager Lou Piniella is changing his lineup - ESPN Chicago

The game also doesn't recognize names but stats and attributes.

As for Catchers, didn't Jason Kendall bat lead off for most of his career?

RchW · 07-15-2013, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirMichaelJordan

Marlon Byrd batted leadoff for the Phils.

and there is also this: Chicago Cubs manager Lou Piniella is changing his lineup - ESPN Chicago

The game also doesn't recognize names but stats and attributes.

I was pretty sure I'd seen him bat leadoff.

Gil Thorp · 07-15-2013, 10:59 PM

It's from six years ago, but here's an article on the subject:

Catchers are changing ... starting at the top - MLB - ESPN

Living Lejuhnd · 07-16-2013, 10:43 AM

I went by this when I declared he had never hit leadoff. He did apparently have one PA:

Marlon Byrd 2013 Batting Splits - Baseball-Reference.com

Either way, I get what you guys are saying. It's just clearly not conventional and appears off when you see a guy like Byrd leading off, but with that said, I can understand how it'd be impossible to create the proper algorithms to starting lineups if a lot of it in real life is based on feel rather than pure #s.

Here's another one though. I'm in my first year and realized that I was closed out by David Robertson, not Mariano River. And it's not like he lost his job because he's pitching poorly. His stat line reads:

4-0, 0.34 ERA, 26.2 IP, 0.68 WHIP, 10.8 K/9

For the first time I put on commish privileges and tinkered with another team. That just didn't seem right!

Matt Arnold · 07-16-2013, 11:05 AM

Given where they are in their careers, Rivera is probably a worse pitcher than Robertson ratings-wise. The Yankees probably should be using Robertson to close, and not Rivera.

But that's the thing about a game. It's not Rivera vs Robertson, it's 4* reliever vs 4.5* reliever. It would be nice if the game was a bit better at "rewarding" veteran players. So maybe it's not optimal in-game, but the vet who has been on the team for the past 15 years should be given priority to start, or hit cleanup, than marginal backup.

Same with platoons, too. Instead of playing a good right handed talent everyday, it will often platoon in a marginal left handed backup because his ratings are barely better against righties. Maybe having a slider to control how much difference in talent before a player should be platooned.

07-15-2013, 01:02 AM	#2
oman19 All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Metro Detroit Area Posts: 1,343	Lol you sound like me. I think this is one area where sometimes when giving guys rest the AI makes weird line up choices. I personally have gone the route of me setting the line up s and rotations but I let the manager decide when to give days rest for everyone and he gets to set the line up on those days. Then I just quick sim every game and go through the box score. __________________ GENERATION 10: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment. My OOTP wishlist: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...-wishlist.html

07-15-2013, 12:07 PM	#11
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Toronto ON by way of Glasgow UK Posts: 15,629	Use 7-day lineups don't allow subs and you will get the lineup you want. However you must keep an eye on rest status and plug in subs manually. The beauty of that is plugging in your own subs ensures the batting order doesn't get reshuffled by the AI. __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

07-15-2013, 12:07 PM	#12
Leo_The_Lip All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 1,813	Syd's comments are my experience. I have played with 'Sabremetric lineups' checked for many seasons. This often (like yesterday!) results in my slow-as-molasses second-string catcher batting leadoff when he is inserted to give the 5-hole hitting first stringer a rest. I look for OBP in my backups, and the AI 'Sabremetric' drools over these guys. __________________ "My name will live forever" - Anonymous

07-15-2013, 12:11 AM	#1
Living Lejuhnd Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 37	Team throws random guy in leadoff I'm playing with the Mets and occasionally the Mets will throw Marlon Byrd in at leadoff when he has never led off a game in his career. Other than manually changing it are there other ways to make it so that they don't choose to put him in there? I'm trying to be just GM but I get frustrated all the time when I see the manager making decisions that I wouldn't make!! Last edited by Living Lejuhnd; 07-15-2013 at 12:27 AM.

07-15-2013, 07:31 AM	#3
r0nster Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2006 Location: Michigan Posts: 3,081	I have had that happen as well but I did figure out the why it puts a player in the starting lineup. It is because a player you have starting is getting tired so it gives that player a day off and shakes up the lineup as well.

07-15-2013, 07:45 AM	#4
Pronkytonk Minors (Double A) Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Germany Posts: 168	When playing the 2012 Indians, the game regularly put Travis Hafner in the leadoff spot - about the last guy anyone would like to see there. I think the game looks solely at the actual OBP the player has accomplished to find a backup leadoff hitter - something that has been around for several versions now IIRC.

07-15-2013, 08:19 AM	#5
r0nster Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2006 Location: Michigan Posts: 3,081	I know I seen somewhere that you can set up the AI to base the lineup on a couple various ways. I will endevor to find that configuration. However that would have to wait till I get home from work.

07-15-2013, 10:37 AM	#7
Living Lejuhnd Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 37	I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel here. I just want my leadoff guy to have a decent OBP and be somewhat of a threat on the bases. Marlon Byrd is just your average hitter. He doesn't threaten pitchers on the bases. I've noticed it only happens to me as someone else mentioned when they're giving someone a rest. I just change the depth chart on those days and then have the manager recreate the lineup.

07-15-2013, 12:35 PM	#13
rpriske Hall Of Famer Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Spencerville, ON, Canada Posts: 27,263	Well, OBP is WAY more important than speed in a lead-off hitter... ... but as Wolf says, it actually doesn't matter very much.

07-15-2013, 01:00 PM	#14
Fyrestorm3 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Tampa Bay, Massachusetts Posts: 2,928	Even if it did matter (it really doesn't), I've learned to be okay with my AI manager making wonky lineup decisions. Why? Because every other team in the league does it, too. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that an optimized lineup equated to 5 extra wins per year. If I can tell my manager "no, don't do that - here, use this guy instead," I'm adjusting my Win total by +5, while every other team in the league isn't. I don't want to game the AI this way. Should lineup decision-making be tweaked as a whole for the AI? That's up for debate. But as the game stands right now, I have no problem letting my AI manager make decisions I wouldn't make, because every other team is doing exactly the same thing.

07-15-2013, 05:43 PM	#15
landru Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 101	I am mildly concerned about the weird leadoff hitters the AI comes up with, mainly with the catcher, for three reasons. 1. In just any situation this has rarely been done by a real life manager - so it sticks out as being odd. 2. For home team lineups the catcher has to take off his gear and quickly be the lead off hitter (I know it happens later in the game, but still...) 3. Does anybody want to see a dumpy catcher be the first batter gunning for a walk? I want to see a feisty, speedy batter revving up the offense! (No offense to any dumpy catchers in the audience)

07-15-2013, 10:59 PM	#18
Gil Thorp Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milford Posts: 349	It's from six years ago, but here's an article on the subject: Catchers are changing ... starting at the top - MLB - ESPN

07-16-2013, 10:43 AM	#19
Living Lejuhnd Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 37	I went by this when I declared he had never hit leadoff. He did apparently have one PA: Marlon Byrd 2013 Batting Splits - Baseball-Reference.com Either way, I get what you guys are saying. It's just clearly not conventional and appears off when you see a guy like Byrd leading off, but with that said, I can understand how it'd be impossible to create the proper algorithms to starting lineups if a lot of it in real life is based on feel rather than pure #s. Here's another one though. I'm in my first year and realized that I was closed out by David Robertson, not Mariano River. And it's not like he lost his job because he's pitching poorly. His stat line reads: 4-0, 0.34 ERA, 26.2 IP, 0.68 WHIP, 10.8 K/9 For the first time I put on commish privileges and tinkered with another team. That just didn't seem right!

07-16-2013, 11:05 AM	#20
Matt Arnold OOTP Developer Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Here and there Posts: 16,232	Given where they are in their careers, Rivera is probably a worse pitcher than Robertson ratings-wise. The Yankees probably should be using Robertson to close, and not Rivera. But that's the thing about a game. It's not Rivera vs Robertson, it's 4* reliever vs 4.5* reliever. It would be nice if the game was a bit better at "rewarding" veteran players. So maybe it's not optimal in-game, but the vet who has been on the team for the past 15 years should be given priority to start, or hit cleanup, than marginal backup. Same with platoons, too. Instead of playing a good right handed talent everyday, it will often platoon in a marginal left handed backup because his ratings are barely better against righties. Maybe having a slider to control how much difference in talent before a player should be platooned.