Your Opinion on Releasing Passwords to Defunct Leagues

[kq76]

What's your opinion on releasing passwords to defunct leagues?

I think mine is you try to get permission from the last commish and/or the founder and what they say goes. Should it only be one of those that matters though, and if so which one, or should both have to say yes? What if you can't get an answer from an ex-commish? How long do you wait for an answer? And if you've waited that length of time without an answer do you just go ahead and release it or do you just assume the answer would be a no? There's so many questions.

You might ask, "the league is defunct, what's it matter?". I agree, but sometimes leagues are taken back up and, personally, I wouldn't want to release the password of a league whose commish felt that they might like to resume it at some point in the future and wouldn't want it released in the meantime.

You might also say, "a league belongs to all its members, not just the commish". To that too I would agree, but you'd also probably have to agree that a commish generally puts a lot more work into a league than anybody else so maybe their opinion should be the only one that really counts.

Anyway, I'm torn. Not just for the league that I'm currently pondering this question about (it was a popular league so I'd like to for the benefit of any of its past members who'd like to play it again), but about any league that this question might come up about in the future. So, I'd like to hear what you all think.

[Bluenoser]

In my opinion, no one but the creator/last commish has the right to release the password.

Having said that, I think each case should be decided on an individual basis. As an example, if I'm correct here, the league you're talking about is an OOTP5 league. I doubt very much if that league is going to be picked up again. Since its been defunct for such a long time I really see no harm in unlocking it.

If for example, an OOTP9 league just went defunct, then it may be another story. However, if repeated attempts to contact said creator/commish fall on deaf ears, then to me that's a pretty good indication that said creator/commish no longer cares about the league.

The question is, how do you define repeated attempts? Do you say 20 attempts? 30 attempts? Do you say if after X number of months with no response? It's a tough call, but I think common sense would prevail.

Again, it has to be detrmined on a case by case basis. At the end of the day however, I really don't think there's been a large number of requests for this. At least not that I've seen.

[satchel]

A good topic for discussion, particularly for this reason:

Originally Posted by kq76

... sometimes leagues are taken back up and, personally, I wouldn't want to release the password of a league whose commish felt that they might like to resume it at some point in the future and wouldn't want it released in the meantime.

When instances of this come up, it will surely be because the league Founder and Commissioners are unavailable and not communicating. Otherwise, it is a simple question of following their wishes.

Each case is unique. If a trusted authority from our community (and KQ certainly qualifies) can take a close look at the situation, and the person making the request helps the authorities as much as he can, we can trust the authorities to reach a reasonable conclusion.

The person doing the investigating can apply common-sense inquiries, checking on the online presence and activity of the league Founder and Commissioners, and make a decision. If he's in doubt, he can turn to other community authorities for advice and help.

Does cracking a defunct league hurt the freedom of its Founder or Commissioners to resume that league later? Not really. Some conflict may arise, such as the use of the league name, but otherwise a new iteration of a league doesn't restrict its re-launch by its original "owners."

[rem]

My only hesitation would be the difficulty in knowing whether or not that the league file in question is really from a defunct league or active league (speaking in general here). But, as long as the password is reset there's really little advantage gained by simming ahead given the volatility of player development. It's very rare that someone asks for the password and cannot get it, so a case by case basis is fine.

Also, if someone operates a league and then stops operating it "ownership" no longer exists.

[kq76]

Well, I think you're right satchel that it pretty much has to be on a case by case basis. Even then, though, it might be nice to set some guidelines to look towards.

For instance, I just learned that with the case at hand the file the person has wasn't anywhere near when the league died so even if an ex-commish would want to pick it up again at a later date I really don't see the harm in an old file being opened. Satchel mentioned that releasing the password for a league doesn't restrict an ex-commish from taking it up again, which is true, but my concern there is that the player ratings could then be known which an ex-commish might not appreciate. In this case, however, the file is so old that the ratings being known really wouldn't matter unless the league was going to be taken up at that exact date which I find highly unlikely.

Now could there be other reasons for not releasing the file besides that an ex-commish might like to take it up again? Maybe, but none are coming to me.

As to the question of who trumps whom, the founder or the last commish, if we go back to the concern that someone might like to take it back up eventually, the founder has already walked away from the league so it's not really his anymore so I have to more side with the last commish. Thinking about myself and the KBL, I'd certainly appreciate it if someone asked me if they could open up the league, but I'd tell them that they'd really have to get kingcharles's permission because he was the last commish, not myself.

Another concern that I came to a conclusion on is that we really shouldn't release the password that was figured out, but instead release a file with a reset password because who knows whether the commish at the time used that password for anything else of theirs. That might seem a tad over-cautious, but it's only a bit more work so why not.

As for how long to wait for an answer, well, I always felt that waiting for 2 weeks for an answer from someone regarding their participation in an online league was plenty and I think it's probably plenty for this as well. With the file being so old in this case, however, I'd say asking probably isn't even necessary, but since I already asked I'll wait 72 hours from when I PMd them.

EDIT: If anyone has anything else they'd like to add for future cases, feel free.

[kq76]

Originally Posted by remangiii

My only hesitation would be the difficulty in knowing whether or not that the league file in question is really from a defunct league or active league (speaking in general here). But, as long as the password is reset there's really little advantage gained by simming ahead given the volatility of player development. It's very rare that someone asks for the password and cannot get it, so a case by case basis is fine.

Also, if someone operates a league and then stops operating it "ownership" no longer exists.

Heh, 2 of the things you brought up I later mentioned. I swear I was drafting my post before I saw yours though.

As for how can we tell whether it's defunct or not, well, I suppose you can't really say for absolute sure, but with the IOLD we try to keep track of the leagues as best we can so we often have fairly up-to-date info, certainly not for all leagues, but for many, especially those that post here. When a league dies I think many of us normally hear about it in one way or another, especially if it was a league that ran for awhile. I suppose we really should do the best we can by trying to find out whether it's defunct or not though by googling it and trying to compare the teams and history of the league in question with other leagues (that's what I do when I try to determine whether two leagues in the IOLD are actually the same or not). In the end I guess it's just a matter of, again, doing the best we can.

EDIT: We could also just post asking the community if anyone knows if the league is still going. Surely someone here would know.

[Goody]

The league in question. I was the founder and original commissioner of the league. I returned later as commissioner for a short while and also ran a team when it became defunct (at which point I was not acting as main commissioner...it changed hands based on availability and life events. But all parties involved were upstanding commissioners and well respected by the league)

Here is my take on it.

I spent a lot of time, over the course of my life coming up with the things that went into that league. The original league file was a the product of lots of hard work from me and the original owners. Over time...the concept became even more enriched by the hours and hours spend enriching the league by those who joined...quit...followed...rejoined...etc.

In my case...I would say any of the core group of contributors should have the rights to access the league file when it has become inactive for more than a year. But...who is to determine who is a "core member"? Only the founder can decide that.

I am honored you all waited and asked for my permission before proceeding. I would have been fine with JAttractive accessing the league file through his own means because I know him will enough and consider him a core member. (like say he emailed one of the other commissioners for the password and they gave it to him). That said, I might not have been ok with it if he had gotten an outside party (other than an ootp insider) to crack the code for him. Well, I would not have minded, but who's to know for sure that I didn't plan on restarting a new league with that same file? (I don't)

I am still toying with ideas and projects for another league. Whether I pull the trigger on that I will think over much more than I did the first time I started a league (it was not well planned out time and stability wise which is why many others had to step up to help the league keep going). But who's to say...without hearing it from me...that I wouldn't plan to use the original information for a new league?

From this situation...I feel most of it comes down to a judgement call by those entrusted to make it. You guys made the right choice in this case. You didn't know all the facts so you waited. Had I not shown up...I would hope you'd waited longer or tried to contact others who might know how to get ahold of me or make a decision on my behalf. (if you have the facts that they were a trusted co-commissioner)

This league hasn't been defunct since v5. That's just the last version he was able to locate. The league was open for about 7 or 8 years and has only been down about 2 years...I believe. If that adds anything.

There's a lot of special circumstances. This was a league with a lot of fictional imagination added in. I'm not sure what my stance would be if it was an MLB league with random computer generated names etc.

[Goody]

That was long and rambling for a response...

But to put it short and sweet. I do kind of feel like the league is my intellectual property. I wouldn't want any old fly by night GM or OOTP fan to have unlimited access to my creation, no matter how long it had been defunct.

Passwords should only be given out after extensive research into the owner, the league, and the person requesting the password. There should be well beyond a reasonable doubt that it is ok for the requester to get the password.

Example: JAttractive would match the criteria, but there's only about 4 or 5 members of this community that could make that call.

[kq76]

Thanks for your input, Goody. It's definitely helpful.

From your posts I'm primarily taking away 4 things:

-Definitely start a thread asking the community what they know of the defunct league: when did it die, who were all the commissioners, who was probably most entitled to make the call, and what would their wishes likely have been if we can't get in touch with them?

-My previous thinking that the last commish trumps even the founder is maybe wrong, especially with a league like this where the founder really did come up with a lot of the original ideas. For a more general league like most modern leagues probably are, the last commish is probably still the one most entitled.

-Maybe there really should be quite some time since the league died before resetting the password. I didn't think of this at all really (although I was fairly aware that the LBA went silent over a year ago or so) and Goody suggests a year which may be a tad too long, but maybe it really isn't.

-If you can't get word from whomever you should get it from, maybe it's only okay to give it out to a previous long-time member of the league. This is another thing I didn't think would be an issue, but Goody seems to feel strongly about this so maybe many others would too.

[JAttractive]

My added two cents:

This situation is perhaps helped by the fact I have been in another league (the CBL) with KQ76 for years. In this instance he knows me, knows I am a respectable owner and could probably convince the commish of that league to boot me if I decided to be an idiot with this file My point is it's not like I am some unknown who could be trying to sabotage or cheat a league so in this case I could be cut a bit more slack I think.

As for this league being unique and probably being 9lives property (versus any other commish that came later) I wholeheartedly agree! In fact it hadn't even occurred to me to contact anyone who took over the league after him until KQ76 suggested it. That is in no way a disrespect to them but as 9lives pointed out this league was his creation. I think every GM and commish that ever played in that league would agree with that statement too so it shouldn't offend anyone. When he left we just tried to carry on his work... but it was still his, we could never do it authentically. He handcrafted a world, the cities, provided a standard for naming players and brought the whole thing to life for us. As 9lives stated if this was your regular MLB league with random players I don't think it would be the same ... likely the last commish trumps the creator. But in this case 9lives WAS the league.

[satchel]

Originally Posted by remangiii

Also, if someone operates a league and then stops operating it "ownership" no longer exists.

Originally Posted by kq76

...the founder has already walked away from the league so it's not really his anymore...

Originally Posted by 9lives

I do kind of feel like the league is my intellectual property.

Originally Posted by kq76

-My previous thinking that the last commish trumps even the founder is maybe wrong, especially with a league like this where the founder really did come up with a lot of the original ideas.

Originally Posted by JAttractive

As for this league being unique and probably being 9lives property (versus any other commish that came later) I wholeheartedly agree! ...He handcrafted a world, the cities, provided a standard for naming players and brought the whole thing to life for us.

I strongly feel that a league is owned by its creator indefinitely, unless he specifically passes on the rights to it. Even a league's name is a valuable piece of "intellectual property."

Ideally, when a league's founder passes on control of the league to a new Commissioner, there will be an explicit, clear agreement on who has ultimate control over the "property" of the league, from its name, on down.

[eMLBCommish]

Here's my take on property rights of online leagues:

It's the decision of the owner. I would not allow just anyone, if I ever would entertain, a move away from running eMLB. There was technically two co-Founders, but only one Commissioner in the end who's run the league for the entire 9 years it's been running.

I don't see anyone being able to run this particular universe to the levels I would expect of it. With property rights comes to intellectual rights, and I personally don't believe my league will be run any better by someone else, so I doubt I'd ever permit someone to continue it if I ever get to a point I no longer would.

Bottom line: You can pry the password of eMLB from my cold, dead brain tissue.

[treedom]

Interesting...uhhh...forum you have there on your league site, eMLBCommish.

[eMLBCommish]

Originally Posted by treedom

Interesting...uhhh...forum you have there on your league site, eMLBCommish.

We (Total Sports World) were hacked Monday. Domain names have been illegally stolen from us and pointed elsewhere.

Mind being more specific than your above comments, please? This really doesn't tell me if you're seeing something that has nothing to do with baseball, or if you're just referencing that I've only re-established the home page from this fiasco, and need to fix links to point to Total Sports World's temporary domain (basically a .org instead of .net now).

Your comments are baffling.

[remington]

I just saw the subject of this thread and it peaked my interest.

I currently run three leagues. One I created on my own, one I co-created with another person, and one I took over from the league's third commish and have been running for 11 seasons. As a commissioner, your question actually is a little disturbing.

What you are implying is the ability to crack league passwords. While there are many hackers around, openly admitting you are one of them automatically puts you on the list of people I don't want in my league. Why? Simply put, what is to prevent you from cracking my active league's password, then modifying your players so that your team is the best team in the league? Why would you want to offer a service (or tool) that hacks league passwords? Sounds to me like you are encouraging cheating and removing the enjoyment aspect of running online leagues, to be honest. Additionally, finding out if the league is defunct or not is difficult.

I believe that a league is owned by its creator(s) and that they turn over the league to a commissioner, that commissioner becomes the owner, kind of like selling a car. Now if a commish decides to shut down the league, s/he *should* contact the creator(s) to see if they want a copy of the league file, but I don't know that they are obligated to, since they've put in some level of time and effort and likely money into supporting it for however long. I don't believe the password should be shared outside of that tiny group of people, UNLESS they SPECIFICALLY want to share it with someone else.

[kingcharlesxii]

Originally Posted by kq76

Thinking about myself and the KBL, I'd certainly appreciate it if someone asked me if they could open up the league, but I'd tell them that they'd really have to get kingcharles's permission because he was the last commish, not myself.

And the same goes for me, I wouldn't dream about releasing the password unless I got your approval too, the league was always your baby. I was just a caretaker for awhile. Now it might take me awhile to remember what the password WAS for a league that long ago but I kept all the files archived "just in case".

[ifspuds]

Originally Posted by kingcharlesxii

And the same goes for me, I wouldn't dream about releasing the password unless I got your approval too, the league was always your baby. I was just a caretaker for awhile. Now it might take me awhile to remember what the password WAS for a league that long ago but I kept all the files archived "just in case".

I occasionally wonder what would've happened to some of those stud prospects I had coming up through the Okapi system when we shut down. But not enough to want to try getting the password cracked.

In Time Warp, we went through a situation where we lost our founder and commissioner to real-life concerns. We were at the point where enough of us didn't want to let the league die that we were about to ask to get the league password cracked, but we ended up not having to do so.

I don't think it's always clear-cut where the intellectual property lies. For example, in Time Warp, Matt from TN did an enormous amount of work on the league: wrote a long-running dynasty thread before it ever became an online league, then ran it for many seasons before life caught up to him. But on the other hand, I wrote a long-running dynasty thread on my team, and a number of other people made enormous contributions in writing and gathering of history. We all had some degree of ownership in "the league", not just in our teams. Had Matt said "No way, I'm closing up shop and that's final", I don't think any of us would've argued. But when the league just sort of... went on hiatus, that was different.

[blueturf]

This is an interesting discussion.

I tend to agree with 9lives/Goody in that the league remains the "intellectual property" of the original creator and his permission should be sought out if possible. This is especially the case when the league is a unique setup. As someone that has created an elaborate fictional country for my solo league, I can understand the hesitancy to hand the keys to someone when you are unsure the direction they might take it. On the flip side, I have long considered offering my world as a quickstart to get others interested in the fictional part of the game.

I think the other factor that hasn't been completely touched on is that it depends on who is requesting the password and more importantly their intentions for using it.

If it is a former member of the league or a member of the OOTP boards with an established track record, that would carry much more weight than someone who didn't have a history associated with the league.
I would be more willing to release the info when their intent is to continue the league as an offline solo league. I have been in a couple of online leagues where I became attached to the players and would have liked to see how their careers panned out after the league folded. If the opportunity were to continue the game in a solo capacity, I would have done so.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by remington

I just saw the subject of this thread and it peaked my interest.

I currently run three leagues. One I created on my own, one I co-created with another person, and one I took over from the league's third commish and have been running for 11 seasons. As a commissioner, your question actually is a little disturbing.

What you are implying is the ability to crack league passwords. While there are many hackers around, openly admitting you are one of them automatically puts you on the list of people I don't want in my league. Why? Simply put, what is to prevent you from cracking my active league's password, then modifying your players so that your team is the best team in the league? Why would you want to offer a service (or tool) that hacks league passwords? Sounds to me like you are encouraging cheating and removing the enjoyment aspect of running online leagues, to be honest. Additionally, finding out if the league is defunct or not is difficult.

I believe that a league is owned by its creator(s) and that they turn over the league to a commissioner, that commissioner becomes the owner, kind of like selling a car. Now if a commish decides to shut down the league, s/he *should* contact the creator(s) to see if they want a copy of the league file, but I don't know that they are obligated to, since they've put in some level of time and effort and likely money into supporting it for however long. I don't believe the password should be shared outside of that tiny group of people, UNLESS they SPECIFICALLY want to share it with someone else.

I think you are being a little bit overly reactionary to him with your post. I don't in any way think that he was wanting to encourage cheating or hacking or any such thing. I think he was asking, as an OOTP forum moderator, if the OOTP forums should offer this type of service for defunct leagues or not. Quite a bit different in my mind then what you are suggesting.

To specifically address this line:

Simply put, what is to prevent you from cracking my active league's password, then modifying your players so that your team is the best team in the league?

I could be wrong on this, but I don't believe the team exports have the ability to modify how good or bad a player is. So say if someone did hack the league file and modify it, they still have to figure out how to replace the commissioner's file on their system with the edited data. I guess that would be possible if the commissioner always downloads the league file from the website as well, but I don't fully see the point in that (unless you change systems alot), and that is not something that I do in the leagues I commish. So just leaving this at that since it is pretty far off of topic from this thread's intentions...


Back on topic, I also agree that I don't think it is appropriate to open up defunct league passwords without the commissioner's approval ahead of time. Considering the amount of time and years that many have put in to creating a universe, I don't feel that it is right to take it away even if they have ended the league. (I know many leagues however that ended and had no problem with giving out the league file to members to play with solo after it shut down however. I just think it is their decision, not anyone else.)

[satchel]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I don't in any way think that he was wanting to encourage cheating or hacking or any such thing. I think he was asking, as an OOTP forum moderator, if the OOTP forums should offer this type of service for defunct leagues or not. Quite a bit different in my mind then what you are suggesting.

I'd like to echo Alan here, and emphasize the words I've bolded in his quote. This idea of cracking passwords strictly refers to defunct leagues, or a league that has been reasonably determined to have been "abandoned" by whomever was running it.

Originally Posted by Alan T

I could be wrong on this, but I don't believe the team exports have the ability to modify how good or bad a player is.

I've wondered about this too, and I also think that the owner's manipulation of his team (and players) doesn't give him the potential to modify the players' abilities. In the data contained in the team export, the team's players are like chess pieces that have been moved around and arranged, and given certain tasks and commands; but their characteristics can't be modified.