Mitchell Report effect on baseball simmers

[lencombs]

What we have all suspected for years, steroid, and human growth hormone usage has been widespread over the last 20 years.

7 time Cy Young winner Roger Clemens, all-time Home-Run King Barry Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, it is a who used it and who didn't, he said-she said. How in the world can you play historical sims with players from 1985-on vs pre-1985 without considering the steriod factor.

I sim with fictional players exclusivley now, but can't imagine how you could put Roger Clemens against Ty Cobb, Barry Bonds vs Christy Mathewson, or Bob Gibson vs Mark McGuire, without considering the HGH factor into the player ratings. I imagine you could just call it the steroid era and accept it for what it is but it just seems tainted to me.

Greg Maddux now emerges as the greatest pitcher of the last 20 years, clean and dominant, went half a year without walking a batter, Cy Young trophys on his bookshelf. How do you sim a year with Maddux and Clemens in the same roster set?

[The Wolf]

Hold your nose?

[tysok]

Originally Posted by lencombs

Greg Maddux now emerges as the greatest pitcher of the last 20 years, clean and dominant, went half a year without walking a batter, Cy Young trophys on his bookshelf. How do you sim a year with Maddux and Clemens in the same roster set?

And we assume Greg Maddux is clean just because no one has named him?

I agree, I don't think Greg Maddux used steroids or HGH or anything else... but hte cloud still has to hang over him as well as any other player since the mid 70s. Maddux is an exceptional pitcher, but he's almost never missed a start and still pitching at age 41. THe cloud is there, if tomorrow Dave Justice (who was named as a user in the report, but does deny it) decides to say that in fact he actually did do it and in fact he personally injected Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine..... will your post tomorrow say that Randy Johnson is now the greatest pitcher in the last 20 years? How bout if Luis Gonzalez (who I believe has been said to have used at one point by someone) then comes out and says he did use and saw a syringe of steroids in Johnson's locker on Tuseday May 21 whatever year.... now we go down to the next guy.

At this point, that's all the evidence we have on Clemens, someone says they injected him with steroids. It's not even as good a proof as the report has on others (like Tejada, I believe there's a copy of a check from Tejada in the report), and even that's not 100% since the check doesn't have a note on it that says "purchasing of steroids (or HGH)" and initialed.

I don't live with my head in the sand. It's entirely possible Clemens used, it's not for me to judge because no ones going to lay the evidence out in front of me.
We know Bonds used steroids, he admits to using a product... the guy the product came from admits it was steroids... do we absolutely know that Bonds KNEW he took steroids, I don't believe we know that for a fact. Do I think so? Yes I do... but the proof of his taking is far far different than the proof we currently have of the accusation against Clemens. Until it's proven, I'll have to give him the benefit of the doubt.

McGuire and Sosa are sort of the same. With McGuire we know he took Andro... do we know anything more than that he took something he could acquire over the counter at the corner drug store? We don't know that for a fact, we have another "he said" thing going on.

Right now what we have is a cloud of suspicion over every single player that played from at least 1980-2007. We have guys who have been named and we have guys who haven't (maybe haven't been YET). Until it can and is actually proved (or at least a whole lot more evidence than a "he said"), the accusation holds just a little above my statement that Maddux might have used... or Ripken, or Henderson, or Brett, or Yount, or Griffey, or Eckstein, or any other player since 1980...

You just have to do what Baseball will have to do, count it as the steroid era and go on about your business.

[darkcloud4579]

Originally Posted by lencombs

What we have all suspected for years, steroid, and human growth hormone usage has been widespread over the last 20 years.

7 time Cy Young winner Roger Clemens, all-time Home-Run King Barry Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, it is a who used it and who didn't, he said-she said. How in the world can you play historical sims with players from 1985-on vs pre-1985 without considering the steriod factor.

I sim with fictional players exclusivley now, but can't imagine how you could put Roger Clemens against Ty Cobb, Barry Bonds vs Christy Mathewson, or Bob Gibson vs Mark McGuire, without considering the HGH factor into the player ratings. I imagine you could just call it the steroid era and accept it for what it is but it just seems tainted to me.

Greg Maddux now emerges as the greatest pitcher of the last 20 years, clean and dominant, went half a year without walking a batter, Cy Young trophys on his bookshelf. How do you sim a year with Maddux and Clemens in the same roster set?

I think people will think whatever. I don't think that the steroid era is any worse than the segregation era. Take whatever you want, you still have to get on the field and perform and deal with whatever comes from that.

[JHruska]

Greg Maddux looks like a cross between the CPA who lives down the street in any middle class suburb and former White House press secretary Ari Fleischer. His fastball has never touched 90 mph, his success has hinged almost entirely on pinpoint control and a computer-like memory (two things steroids cannot help), and if he ever finds a muscle on that pudgy body of his he may die of shock. It's just impossible for me to believe that he was ever a juicer.

[DWK]

Originally Posted by lencombs

What we have all suspected for years, steroid, and human growth hormone usage has been widespread over the last 20 years.

7 time Cy Young winner Roger Clemens, all-time Home-Run King Barry Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, it is a who used it and who didn't, he said-she said. How in the world can you play historical sims with players from 1985-on vs pre-1985 without considering the steriod factor.

I sim with fictional players exclusivley now, but can't imagine how you could put Roger Clemens against Ty Cobb, Barry Bonds vs Christy Mathewson, or Bob Gibson vs Mark McGuire, without considering the HGH factor into the player ratings. I imagine you could just call it the steroid era and accept it for what it is but it just seems tainted to me.

Greg Maddux now emerges as the greatest pitcher of the last 20 years, clean and dominant, went half a year without walking a batter, Cy Young trophys on his bookshelf. How do you sim a year with Maddux and Clemens in the same roster set?

And what happens if this Brian McNammee lied? Some of these players will be tainted the rest of there career.

[Raidergoo]

Originally Posted by DWK

And what happens if this Brian McNammee lied?

Federal perjury charges.

[akw4572]

Originally Posted by DWK

And what happens if this Brian McNammee lied? Some of these players will be tainted the rest of there career.

And every single one of them, save for Ken Caminiti, had a chance to refute the charges and tell their side of the story.

[1998 Yankees]

Originally Posted by lencombs

What we have all suspected for years, steroid, and human growth hormone usage has been widespread over the last 20 years . . . How in the world can you play historical sims with players from 1985-on vs pre-1985 without considering the steriod factor . . . I sim with fictional players exclusivley now, but can't imagine how you could put Roger Clemens against Ty Cobb, Barry Bonds vs Christy Mathewson, or Bob Gibson vs Mark McGuire, without considering the HGH factor into the player ratings. I imagine you could just call it the steroid era and accept it for what it is but it just seems tainted to me.

Part of the answer is in your post, of course: Sim with fictional players. And if you want to play pure baseball, the way it should be and would be in a perfect world, you should turn off financials as well.

But, if you want to play real baseball the way it really is these days, then you have to play with financials on, of course. And if you want to sim history, then you have to recognize and accept what went on in what is now being called the Steroids Era. It's a part of baseball history now, like the Dead Ball and Live Ball Eras. Baseball historians, and therefore baseball historical simmers, will come to accept it that way.

As a matter of fact, I see simmers as disappointed if Bonds did not put up his spectacular numbers in 2001 when simulated, knowing what actually (allegedly) happened. Also, how are they going to feel if Clemens quits in 2003 at age 40 as he said he would before he found, um, new energy?

BTW, I don't want to start up a steroids debate here, which is why I was tentative in the previous paragraph. Those of you who know me from Talk Sports know how I feel on the subject. My only point here is to say, again, that steroids are part of baseball history and the further we go into the future, the easier it will be to take what happened and still enjoy baseball with this attitude.

[1998 Yankees]

Dola, one other thought.

Originally Posted by lencombs

I sim with fictional players exclusivley now, but can't imagine how you could put Roger Clemens against Ty Cobb, Barry Bonds vs Christy Mathewson, or Bob Gibson vs Mark McGuire, without considering the HGH factor into the player ratings.

Yes, there were some spectacular names on that list, and you would have to consider the effects of PED when matching them up with stars of earlier eras.

However, a columnist in my local newspaper said this:

A good many of the named players are retired. Roughly 75 percent of the named players were pretty lousy players (F.P. Santangelo?), which torpedoes the theory that steroids can make you an All-Star.

A few players greatly benefited. Most of the others should not have bothered. Aside from the few (and compare this group to the number of players who played the professional game during these years), the effects of steroids and HGH in this era may not have been as important on overall statistics and results as you think.

Now you know who the (alleged) cheaters are. You should be able to account for them in your simulations and adjust either the game or your expectations accordingly. If Cobb cannot compete altogether fairly against Clemens (and I wonder if that would actually be the case), then that's life; more specifically, that's history.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by 1998 Yankees

Part of the answer is in your post, of course: Sim with fictional players. And if you want to play pure baseball, the way it should be and would be in a perfect world, you should turn off financials as well.

Or play pre-free-agency historical with financials off, which makes for a great game.

[1998 Yankees]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Or play pre-free-agency historical with financials off, which makes for a great game.

Ah, the good old days . . .

[CMH]

Originally Posted by JHruska

Greg Maddux looks like a cross between the CPA who lives down the street in any middle class suburb and former White House press secretary Ari Fleischer. His fastball has never touched 90 mph, his success has hinged almost entirely on pinpoint control and a computer-like memory (two things steroids cannot help), and if he ever finds a muscle on that pudgy body of his he may die of shock. It's just impossible for me to believe that he was ever a juicer.

Not all juicers do it for muscle gain.

Some use it for recovery.

[tysok]

Originally Posted by Raidergoo

Federal perjury charges.

I don't think perjury applies since it isn't (at least from what we can read) testimony, it's the results of a plea agreement.
He agreed to plead guilty to money laundering and distribution in return for cooperating. The US attorney will recommend a more lenient sentence if it concludes that he cooperated completely and truthfully. At least that's Radomski. I don't think the report actually says anything about McNamee except that law enforcement warned him that he could face "criminal jeopardy" if he lied.
For Radomski, he already has a more lenient sentence by the agreement... if the Feds decide he "cooperated" enough they'll recommend an even more lenient sentence. Unless your an idiot you know the Feds will do whatever they feel like, so tossing in a name of someone you don't like isn't going to matter much. Further, and including McNamee this time, how will they know if you've lied? It's going to be a "he said, he said" thing. The only proof could be if Clemens had an "alibi", if he were somewhere else on the dates McNamee says he injected him... at least from the report that can't be done. Unless we'd believe it if Clemens said he wasn't staying at his apartment in Toronto in 1998. Kind of hard to believe. Nothing in the report can be disproved completely, but it can't be proved either.

Originally Posted by akw4572

And every single one of them, save for Ken Caminiti, had a chance to refute the charges and tell their side of the story.

True, and Mitchell was working with the Feds as well. This would be the same group of people who should really have a department of leakage. Bonds grand jury testimony, which is supposed to be private, confidential, secret. It got leaked. The day they raided a clinic in Florida it leaked that Ankiel purchased HGH. Gary Mathews Jr.'s name was leaked after a raid. This is before anything is proven or even confirmed, the names leak immediately. Mathews' name is listed in the report even though he's been cleared by MLB, and several others as well. Guillermo Mota's name is mentioned only as a by-line that he was traded along with Lo Duca under the section discussing Lo Duca's alleged steroid use... yet he has a positive test and suspension from MLB.

*IF* Mitchell contacted these players and told them they had been named as supposed users and asked to talk to them about it... is it surprising that they declined? The names will show up anyhow, either in that report or leaked from somewhere else. Is it better to have reported that you've been fingered and that you came in to talk about it... or just have it reported that you were fingered? If you came in to talk about it and it still comes out you look even more guilty than if you didn't talk at all.
The if is emphasized because of this line: "In order to provide Clemens with information about these allegations and to give
him an opportunity to respond, I asked him to meet with me; he declined." Doesn't look to me like we know what the invitation said. A letter to Clemens asking if he wants to come in and talk, or a letter to Clemens saying NcNamee has fingered you would you like to give me your side of the story? Mitchell asked Clemens to meet with him to provide information about the allegations, we don't know if he told him he'd been fingered... nor any other player on the list. Until we know, we can't pass the judgement.

We do know that a letter went out to every current player requesting they give any information they have. If a personal letter went out to these guys it could easily have said the same thing only on a personal note.

One thing of interest, at least to me, Mitchell points out that law enforcement goes after manufacturers and distributors more often than users, that of all the players who have been suspended not one has been prosecuted blah blah blah. Yet the report also says that the terms of Radomski's plea bargain required him to "provide complete and truthful information to me and to my
investigative staff as part of his cooperation." Yet Mitchell is just investigating how widespread the use is in MLB. There's no reason to have gone into (either by Mitchell or the Feds) what end users he sold to except for the possibility of prosecuting the user. No reason for names to have shown up in the report at all except that the report was began and concluded as the witch hunt it was always considered to have been.

Anyhow, Clemens may have used, he may not have. No one will ever know for sure unless they come up with a bottle of steroid laden piss. Until then, well I talked to a psychic yesterday and he clearly remembers meeting Babe Ruth in a past life and talking to him about using Deca-Durabolin... Ruth was more than a great baseball player, he was the inventor or steroids. Uh oh,a "he said, he said" thing again... guess Ruth was dirty to.

[jazzrack]

history is history, just because you don't like it doesn't mean you can or even should change it.

and most of the stuff wasn't banned during most of that time period. steroid use..immoral... maybe, but its not cheating if its not against the rules.

[Tekneek]

Steroids by itself is no guarantee of success in baseball. If it were, the league would be full of people who were juiced up and instantly gained baseball talent.

I just accept it for what it was. You cannot change the past. In my mind, it is just one of many things that is very different about baseball from the way it was played years ago. Look at all the medical advancements that have prolonged careers. Who knows what some of the players from the past could have done if they could have had their bodies repaired the way today's players do. What if they had the benefit of the diet and fitness regimens that many of today's players do all year long?

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by jazzrack

history is history, just because you don't like it doesn't mean you can or even should change it

I wish the people who wrote history textbooks understood that.

[ctorg]

Originally Posted by jazzrack

history is history, just because you don't like it doesn't mean you can or even should change it.

Yeah, I'm not anywhere close to being a fan of segregated baseball, but when I sim a fictional history, unless there's some story behind the league that makes me do things differently, I change the racial configurations to make them more like history. It's an ugly thing, but it's part of history.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by ctorg

Yeah, I'm not anywhere close to being a fan of segregated baseball, but when I sim a fictional history, unless there's some story behind the league that makes me do things differently, I change the racial configurations to make them more like history. It's an ugly thing, but it's part of history.

If you're going to be any kind of historical gamer then you really kind of have to do that, and as much as I hate to say it, we'll also have to deal with the Steroids Era the same way when playing modern era historical.

History really sucks sometimes, but it is what it is. Or was.

[lencombs]

Originally Posted by tysok

Anyhow, Clemens may have used, he may not have. No one will ever know for sure unless they come up with a bottle of steroid laden piss. Until then, well I talked to a psychic yesterday and he clearly remembers meeting Babe Ruth in a past life and talking to him about using Deca-Durabolin... Ruth was more than a great baseball player, he was the inventor or steroids. Uh oh,a "he said, he said" thing again... guess Ruth was dirty to.

I believe that Roger Clemens has been roided up, or HGH'd for years now. I think Roger was a hall of famer had he retired 4 years ago, but prolonged his career with human growth hormones. I don't need a bottle of old piss to back up my theory on Clemens, the Mitchell report, and Roger's abscence in the media this week vehomently denying these charges, while his team-mate Andy Pettite has admitted that he has used, is plenty circumstantial evidence in my historical leagues.

If steroids could help Maddux better pinpoint his 89 mph pitches on the corner maybe he would use too, but the roids help the power pitcher like Clemens.

Maybe i'll put together an all-time steroid team, Bonds, Canseco, McGwiure, Palmero, Clemens, Sosa, Dykstra and see how often a clean team beats them.