Most overrated boxers

Tommysixfingers · 07-14-2007, 11:27 AM

I thought it would be fun to see which three boxers you guys feel are the most overrated in modern times.

A short explanation of why you think so would be fun to read also. Don't be afraid to express controversial oppinions. That's what makes it all fun.

I'll begin with my picks.

1. Rocky Marciano - Undefeated sure, but against who? The only fighters of any calibre that he fought were all well past their prime.
2. Mike Tyson - Without a doubt he was the best HW around in his prime, I still feel that he is/was very overrated for quite a while. The first time he met a boxer who was willing to box and not run he lost.
3. Ray Leonard - Got two gift decisions against Hearns and Hagler. Stayed well clear of fighters like McCallum, Pryor and Mugabi. Very good boxer but also very overrated in comparison to others of his era imo.

rastak · 07-14-2007, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tommysixfingers

I thought it would be fun to see which three boxers you guys feel are the most overrated in modern times.

A short explanation of why you think so would be fun to read also. Don't be afraid to express controversial oppinions. That's what makes it all fun.

I'll begin with my picks.

1. Rocky Marciano - Undefeated sure, but against who? The only fighters of any calibre that he fought were all well past their prime.
2. Mike Tyson - Without a doubt he was the best HW around in his prime, I still feel that he is/was very overrated for quite a while. The first time he met a boxer who was willing to box and not run he lost.
3. Ray Leonard - Got two gift decisions against Hearns and Hagler. Stayed well clear of fighters like McCallum, Pryor and Mugabi. Very good boxer but also very overrated in comparison to others of his era imo.

Not sure on Tyson but I'd agree with the other two. Ecspecially #3. Leonard was a pretty damn good fighter but people make him out to be some kinda superman. Marvin Hagler was a much better fighter than Leonard although their primes were in different weight classes. Leonard-Hagler was a joke decision for sure.

Ric915 · 07-14-2007, 12:51 PM

If you put Rocky Marciano on that list you have to put larry Holmes on that list you can't blame them for the lack of competition around them at a particular time in history. I honestly think an over the hill Ezzard Charles or Joe Walcott or even Archie Moore where tougher competition then anyone I can think of Holmes beating during his reign. Hell just in general the further back you go the tougher the fighters where You could propbably take an average fighter from the 50's and he'd be alot tougher then top 10 heavies today. Again I don't feel someone should be overrated because of the lack of competition around them 49-0 is still a hell of a feat if it was that easy everyone would be 49-0 just my 2 cents

mh2365 · 07-14-2007, 01:40 PM

As stated before I've never been a fan of Leonard's and obviously I think Holyfield was wildly overrated.

hamed · 07-14-2007, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tommysixfingers

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3. Ray Leonard - Got two gift decisions against Hearns and Hagler. Stayed well clear of fighters like McCallum, Pryor and Mugabi. Very good boxer but also very overrated in comparison to others of his era imo.

I'll agree about his 2nd fight with Hearns but beating that 32-0 30 KO Hearns wasn't impressive?

He also forced an all time great Duran to quit in their 2nd fight when Ray fought a smart fight.

Not sure why the fight with Pryor never took place but why would Ray have been afraid to fight him? I heard Pryor moved to 140 lbs because nobody wanted to fight him @ 135. So Ray was afraid of a big lightweight?

Also went up & whipped a decent 36-0 Ayub Kalule to win his WBA JMW belt before the 1st Hearns fight. A fight that Bob Arum was afraid of - especially when Kalule hurt Ray early in the fight.

I can see why people disagree about the Hagler fight but just the fact Ray gave Hagler such a battle after a 5 year layoff is pretty impressive.

At the time I think someone said it would be like McEnroe coming out of retirement for 5 years & playing for the Wimbeldon title on Centre Court. The only difference is John could have been embarassed, Ray could have been killed by Hagler - an all time great MW.

Ray was in with Hearns, Duran & Hagler - 3 of the all time greats of the sport & did very well & that's not impressive? He also stopped a decent fighter in Benitiz to win the WBC WW title.

Tommysixfingers · 07-14-2007, 02:23 PM

Ric: I agree with you that Marciano couldn't be blamed for the state of his opponents. What makes him overrated is that people tend to mention him in the same sentence as Ali and other great champions and boxers. He almost always gets a high placing on peoples "best of all times" type of lists. I don't think that he deserves to be ther and that is why I think he is overrated.

As for Holmes, he never, ever gets any kind of reckognition. That disqualifies him from being overrated.

Hamed: As I wrote, I do think that Leonard was a really good boxer. I really do! But I also think that he is overrated in comparison to the likes of Hagler, Hearns, McCallum and possibly one or two more. He is "the popular pick" of the average sports fan and I never figured out why.

I didn't say that he wasn't impressive, only overrated.

hamed · 07-14-2007, 02:31 PM

OK Tommy maybe our definitions differ.

I just think that's a pretty impressive body of work & not many guys IMO can top it.

Some times a fighter beats someone & exposes them but Hearns proved to be a future champ in higher weight classes after his 1st fight with Ray. Also Duran later whipped Davey Moore @ 154. My point being, when Ray beat them, they weren't shot fighters.

One other thing about Mugabi. He was unbeaten when he fought Hagler in 1986 & seeing that fight caused Ray to want to fight Hagler. Had Mugabi won, maybe Ray comes back for him. Ray's last fight was in 1984 against Kevin Howard until he came back to fight Hagler in 1987.

Tommysixfingers · 07-14-2007, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hamed

OK Tommy maybe our definitions differ.

I just think that's a pretty impressive body of work & not many guys IMO can top it.

Some times a fighter beats someone & exposes them but Hearns proved to be a future champ in higher weight classes after his 1st fight with Ray. Also Duran later whipped Davey Moore @ 154. My point being, when Ray beat them, they weren't shot fighters.

One other thing about Mugabi. He was unbeaten when he fought Hagler in 1986 & seeing that fight caused Ray to want to fight Hagler. Had Mugabi won, maybe Ray comes back for him. Ray's last fight was in 1984 against Kevin Howard until he came back to fight Hagler in 1987.

Fair enough.

Out of curiosity. Which fighters would you say are the most overrated?

hamed · 07-14-2007, 02:40 PM

Your 1st 2 are pretty good picks. It would have been nice to see Tyson stay focused because in his prime, he was fearsome.

That's a good question. I'm not sure if Terry Norris is highly rated (so can he be overated?) but I just recall him beating up on old WW's moving up.

Thunder · 07-14-2007, 03:08 PM

I'll add my .02, but with the condition that I'm not always sure what people mean by "overrated" . . As in, Overrated by whom and where exactly are people "rated" historically.

Anyway, I'll go on the basis that someone I should list is generally accepted by a majority of people being better than I think he was . . thus by definition making it an unpopular position, but here goes:

Tyson: If you look at TBCB overall ratings, his "12" puts him in a group that is sixth through 12th all time. I think that's a bit high. Ya I know, he punched out a lot of people, won the title very young and was one scary SOB and all that. I'm tempted to say all it took to beat him was No fear, a good jab and sticking to a game plan, but it really took more. But that combined with a certain skill level was a mismatch.

He's the only one that immediately comes to mind. I was thinking about McCallum or Whitaker, but you look at their records and they were both pretty damn good, each losing a couple fights at the end of the line.

I also took a look at Salvador Sanchez, thinking maybe because of his tragic death, he may have gotten a little historical benefit of the doubt. But if anything, he's Underrated!

The last guy I put on the list is Ray Leonard. His resume has been touched on and I think it's excellent. His only prime loss was when he decided to bang with a guy called "Hand of Stone" and he lost by one, one and two points. I think that says a lot for his chin and power.

I know some people think he lost to Hagler or in Hearns 2, but the record shows that is not the case. Given his body of work, I think he's the best prizefighter of my lifetime (that being defined as the post-Ali era).

Syd Thrift · 07-14-2007, 03:18 PM

I think that Tyson up to the Buster Douglas match really was that good. Overall I don't think he was a great boxer - the great ones can perform as they age - but aside from Holyfield he was beating anyone and everyone he fought. The Douglas fight looked like it started to be fought by a different Tyson.

As far as overrated... it's so hard to say because so many fight fans say that the modern game is garbage compared to yesteryear and to be honest I'm not that much in tune with what boxing fans think about guys from the past.

Would Chuck Wepner count? The man had a movie more or less based on him ('Rocky', of course) but that title fight he had against Ali was an absolute farce. The only reason he didn't get KO'd early is that he fought very, very dirty. Mike Tyson dirty. Ali seemed to get really angry at him late and appeared to start punching him to within an inch of being knocked out, then let up long enough for him to recover so he could dish out some more punishment (didn't he also do that with...argh, Ernie Shavers?). And then we're supposed to accept that Wepner knocked Ali down because he stepped on his foot. Come on.

The later model George Foreman was also a pretty horrible boxer who landed one good punch. I get the feeling most fight fans are pretty aware of this, though.

Erik W. · 07-14-2007, 03:32 PM

I don't think Young Tyson is overrated at all. In fact, I think Young Tyson is underrated in retrospect. Few people seem to remember just how good his defense was. He wasn't just a puncher by any means. Of course, he got derailed in what should have been his prime, so we'll never know what could've been.

Leonard is certainly overrated. I also think Gatti is highly overrated by the public at large. People seem to think he's a great fighter, when he's just a human punching bag who got famous by fighting another human punching bag. Tough as heck, sure, but not a great boxer. Although I don't know if Gatti belongs on the list on this board since you folks seem to be more into the sport than the lemmings who think Gatti is good.

mh2365 · 07-14-2007, 04:04 PM

My dislike of Leonard doesn't have anything to do with his talent so I wouldn't put him on my overrated list.

Holyfield to me is a prime example of an overrated fighter, he was very popular and fought with a lot of heart but in the end wasn't the great HW everyone made him out to be.

I think when I get to Tyson in my uni I am going to fight him as a 12 until he loses the first time then drop him to an 8.

CONN CHRIS · 07-14-2007, 04:08 PM

I wasn't aware that the Bayone Bleeder was a potential 'most over-rated' candidate.

If I have to down-grade my opinion of him as a heavyweight, I may need some time to consider just how to go about doing that.

Thunder · 07-14-2007, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erik W.

Although I don't know if Gatti belongs on the list on this board since you folks seem to be more into the sport than the lemmings who think Gatti is good.

Hey now.

CONN CHRIS · 07-14-2007, 04:49 PM

I heard that Gatti can drive nails with his forehead. I am not about to critisize him for fear that he's lurking out in my bushes.

CONN CHRIS · 07-14-2007, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

Ali seemed to get really angry at him late and appeared to start punching him to within an inch of being knocked out, then let up long enough for him to recover so he could dish out some more punishment (didn't he also do that with...argh, Ernie Shavers?).

I believe that was Earnie Terrell.

What's my name?

What's my name?

What's my name?

Erik W. · 07-14-2007, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunder

Hey now.

Don't get me wrong. I like Gatti. He seems a decent fellow, and he's exciting to watch. Tonight will be the first time I've ever rooted against him.

I just think he's overrated by the public at large when it comes to his boxing skill.

mh2365 · 07-14-2007, 05:08 PM

I see Gatti the same way I do the HW version of Holyfield.

Both are above average (although Holyfield is better) fighters who are seen as better than they are because of popularity and heart.

Funny how heart is always the description they give to a guy that takes a beating and keeps coming forward. If they were a great boxer then they wouldn't take the constant beating to begin with.

Syd Thrift · 07-14-2007, 05:18 PM

Yeah, Holyfield in his prime was scary, not so much because of his punching power or anything but because he didn't seem to have that instinct to cover up when he got damaged. I kept waiting for him to get really badly hurt in a fight. Fortunately he didn't, but I'm convinced that it's mostly luck that he didn't get put into a coma or worse. The '94 Moorer-Holyfield matchup could have ended that way IMO if Moorer was more aggressive in the early rounds.

As for Wepner... yeah, I know smart boxing fans think he was a complete scrub, but again... how many other craptastic heavies had movies made about them? And I've talked to a good number of people who talk about the Ali-Wepner fight as though it was a valiant effort by an "old school" boxer.

Speaking of which, up until the Klitschkos you could make a case that all the heavyweight "Great White Hopes" from Ingemar Johansson on were pretty overrated. Did Gerry Cooney deserve to step into the ring against any classic boxer?

07-14-2007, 11:27 AM	#1
Tommysixfingers All Star Starter Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 1,500	Most overrated boxers I thought it would be fun to see which three boxers you guys feel are the most overrated in modern times. A short explanation of why you think so would be fun to read also. Don't be afraid to express controversial oppinions. That's what makes it all fun. I'll begin with my picks. 1. Rocky Marciano - Undefeated sure, but against who? The only fighters of any calibre that he fought were all well past their prime. 2. Mike Tyson - Without a doubt he was the best HW around in his prime, I still feel that he is/was very overrated for quite a while. The first time he met a boxer who was willing to box and not run he lost. 3. Ray Leonard - Got two gift decisions against Hearns and Hagler. Stayed well clear of fighters like McCallum, Pryor and Mugabi. Very good boxer but also very overrated in comparison to others of his era imo. Last edited by Tommysixfingers; 07-14-2007 at 12:11 PM.

07-14-2007, 02:23 PM	#6
Tommysixfingers All Star Starter Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 1,500	Ric: I agree with you that Marciano couldn't be blamed for the state of his opponents. What makes him overrated is that people tend to mention him in the same sentence as Ali and other great champions and boxers. He almost always gets a high placing on peoples "best of all times" type of lists. I don't think that he deserves to be ther and that is why I think he is overrated. As for Holmes, he never, ever gets any kind of reckognition. That disqualifies him from being overrated. Hamed: As I wrote, I do think that Leonard was a really good boxer. I really do! But I also think that he is overrated in comparison to the likes of Hagler, Hearns, McCallum and possibly one or two more. He is "the popular pick" of the average sports fan and I never figured out why. I didn't say that he wasn't impressive, only overrated. Last edited by Tommysixfingers; 07-14-2007 at 02:24 PM.

07-14-2007, 03:08 PM	#10
Thunder Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Connecticut Posts: 3,865	I'll add my .02, but with the condition that I'm not always sure what people mean by "overrated" . . As in, Overrated by whom and where exactly are people "rated" historically. Anyway, I'll go on the basis that someone I should list is generally accepted by a majority of people being better than I think he was . . thus by definition making it an unpopular position, but here goes: Tyson: If you look at TBCB overall ratings, his "12" puts him in a group that is sixth through 12th all time. I think that's a bit high. Ya I know, he punched out a lot of people, won the title very young and was one scary SOB and all that. I'm tempted to say all it took to beat him was No fear, a good jab and sticking to a game plan, but it really took more. But that combined with a certain skill level was a mismatch. He's the only one that immediately comes to mind. I was thinking about McCallum or Whitaker, but you look at their records and they were both pretty damn good, each losing a couple fights at the end of the line. I also took a look at Salvador Sanchez, thinking maybe because of his tragic death, he may have gotten a little historical benefit of the doubt. But if anything, he's Underrated! The last guy I put on the list is Ray Leonard. His resume has been touched on and I think it's excellent. His only prime loss was when he decided to bang with a guy called "Hand of Stone" and he lost by one, one and two points. I think that says a lot for his chin and power. I know some people think he lost to Hagler or in Hearns 2, but the record shows that is not the case. Given his body of work, I think he's the best prizefighter of my lifetime (that being defined as the post-Ali era). __________________ I like Stats Mostly

07-14-2007, 03:32 PM	#12
Erik W. Global Moderator Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Rivière-du-Loup, Qc Posts: 4,615	I don't think Young Tyson is overrated at all. In fact, I think Young Tyson is underrated in retrospect. Few people seem to remember just how good his defense was. He wasn't just a puncher by any means. Of course, he got derailed in what should have been his prime, so we'll never know what could've been. Leonard is certainly overrated. I also think Gatti is highly overrated by the public at large. People seem to think he's a great fighter, when he's just a human punching bag who got famous by fighting another human punching bag. Tough as heck, sure, but not a great boxer. Although I don't know if Gatti belongs on the list on this board since you folks seem to be more into the sport than the lemmings who think Gatti is good. __________________ Free agent baseball fan. Let's go (insert team name here)!

07-14-2007, 04:08 PM	#14
CONN CHRIS Global Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 29,137	I wasn't aware that the Bayone Bleeder was a potential 'most over-rated' candidate. If I have to down-grade my opinion of him as a heavyweight, I may need some time to consider just how to go about doing that. __________________ Check Out My Cards!

07-14-2007, 12:51 PM	#3
Ric915 All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Lake Havasu City Arizona Posts: 1,262	If you put Rocky Marciano on that list you have to put larry Holmes on that list you can't blame them for the lack of competition around them at a particular time in history. I honestly think an over the hill Ezzard Charles or Joe Walcott or even Archie Moore where tougher competition then anyone I can think of Holmes beating during his reign. Hell just in general the further back you go the tougher the fighters where You could propbably take an average fighter from the 50's and he'd be alot tougher then top 10 heavies today. Again I don't feel someone should be overrated because of the lack of competition around them 49-0 is still a hell of a feat if it was that easy everyone would be 49-0 just my 2 cents

07-14-2007, 01:40 PM	#4
mh2365 Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: louisville Posts: 14,941 Infractions: 0/2 (101)	As stated before I've never been a fan of Leonard's and obviously I think Holyfield was wildly overrated.

07-14-2007, 02:31 PM	#7
hamed Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 2,073	OK Tommy maybe our definitions differ. I just think that's a pretty impressive body of work & not many guys IMO can top it. Some times a fighter beats someone & exposes them but Hearns proved to be a future champ in higher weight classes after his 1st fight with Ray. Also Duran later whipped Davey Moore @ 154. My point being, when Ray beat them, they weren't shot fighters. One other thing about Mugabi. He was unbeaten when he fought Hagler in 1986 & seeing that fight caused Ray to want to fight Hagler. Had Mugabi won, maybe Ray comes back for him. Ray's last fight was in 1984 against Kevin Howard until he came back to fight Hagler in 1987.

07-14-2007, 02:40 PM	#9
hamed Registered User Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 2,073	Your 1st 2 are pretty good picks. It would have been nice to see Tyson stay focused because in his prime, he was fearsome. That's a good question. I'm not sure if Terry Norris is highly rated (so can he be overated?) but I just recall him beating up on old WW's moving up.

07-14-2007, 04:04 PM	#13
mh2365 Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: louisville Posts: 14,941 Infractions: 0/2 (101)	My dislike of Leonard doesn't have anything to do with his talent so I wouldn't put him on my overrated list. Holyfield to me is a prime example of an overrated fighter, he was very popular and fought with a lot of heart but in the end wasn't the great HW everyone made him out to be. I think when I get to Tyson in my uni I am going to fight him as a 12 until he loses the first time then drop him to an 8.

07-14-2007, 04:49 PM	#16
CONN CHRIS Global Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 29,137	I heard that Gatti can drive nails with his forehead. I am not about to critisize him for fear that he's lurking out in my bushes. __________________ Check Out My Cards!

07-14-2007, 05:08 PM	#19
mh2365 Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: louisville Posts: 14,941 Infractions: 0/2 (101)	I see Gatti the same way I do the HW version of Holyfield. Both are above average (although Holyfield is better) fighters who are seen as better than they are because of popularity and heart. Funny how heart is always the description they give to a guy that takes a beating and keeps coming forward. If they were a great boxer then they wouldn't take the constant beating to begin with.