Beta Hotfix Patch 70 (Version 19.8.70)!

[Pineywoods OOTPer]

Originally Posted by Galeno

AMDer here. 64 ruined the game. 69 made it possible to play it again, but with long lags.

Did not have the chance to play a 3D game yet with patch 70, but the interface lag problem is gone. It runs as smooth as it was before the "64 thing".

Thank you guys. And... be careful with the patches next time...

I had been dead since 57...and today's 70 has me finally back up!!! YIPPEE!!

[BirdWatcher]

Originally Posted by waittilnextyear

I think abandoning the current title to concentrate on the next one would alienate a lot of the customers who are having issues with this version. My impression is that OOTP recognizes that it is a niche game and that customer loyalty is massively important for them. Most people are reasonable about accepting X% of imperfections in their product as long as the developers are responsive to decreasing that percentage in a timely manner. I doubt customers are as accepting of Y% imperfections (even if Y is lesser than X) if it means no support or possibility of issues being fixed. For this reason, customer support is always ongoing. That's why the dev cycle goes: development, testing, release, patching/support instead of just the first 3 steps.

I also think that a perfect version is something of a "unicorn" and will never be achieved. This was described more eloquently in an earlier post about how impossible it is to debug every permutation/configuration possible. There will always be a few people out there, whether through some fault of their own or not, who have incompatibilities and certain problems with hardware, settings, etc. Cashing in all your chips to focus on the next game sounds nice, but there will always be things to fix no matter how well the resources are focused. That is, I doubt the patching/support phase could ever be done without. Factor in the complexities of software development, the breakneck pace in hardware evolution, and the small studio at OOTP trying to navigate it all; I think the best that we can hope for is to use common sense (make backups of important files, don't act like a petulant child when asking for tech support) and hope the bugs that do arise are not crushing to deal with. If you are one of the unlucky ones that does suffer from a game-breaking bug, the hope is the developers address it as expediently as possible.

I so very much agree with everything you have said here. However, I also believe that there might a middle ground that hasn't been very clearly defined in this discussion yet, but I think has been hinted at.
There will never be a perfect release, a completely bug free for everyone release. So, inevitably, some patches will be required. But what I have experienced in my short time as an OOTP customer/gamer is that the developers, for all of the right reasons, are eager to continually improve the game and give their customers what they ask for, to the extent that this is possible. But maybe we ask for a bit too much. Or, in other words, maybe the scope of change between iterations of the game should be a bit narrower.
This could mean, in practical terms, to the extent possible the developers should quash bugs and make subtle improvements on existing features in as limited amount of patches as necessary. But perhaps larger changes- almost entirely new features or significant upgrades of current features- should wait for the next iteration. I personally applaud the developers of this excellent game for being so responsive to their customers and for putting so much effort into improving their game continuously. But perhaps we've been a bit spoiled by this and have pushed them to be too ambitious in their efforts.
This is just my vision of what a middle ground position on this matter could look like. I'm not even necessarily advocating that this is what the developers should do. I think it would be presumptuous of me to advocate for anything really. I'm just expressing the thoughts that run through my head when I mull over what Lawn Loaf has said above.

[Reggie]

Originally Posted by BirdWatcher

I so very much agree with everything you have said here. However, I also believe that there might a middle ground that hasn't been very clearly defined in this discussion yet, but I think has been hinted at.
There will never be a perfect release, a completely bug free for everyone release. So, inevitably, some patches will be required. But what I have experienced in my short time as an OOTP customer/gamer is that the developers, for all of the right reasons, are eager to continually improve the game and give their customers what they ask for, to the extent that this is possible. But maybe we ask for a bit too much. Or, in other words, maybe the scope of change between iterations of the game should be a bit narrower.
This could mean, in practical terms, to the extent possible the developers should quash bugs and make subtle improvements on existing features in as limited amount of patches as necessary. But perhaps larger changes- almost entirely new features or significant upgrades of current features- should wait for the next iteration. I personally applaud the developers of this excellent game for being so responsive to their customers and for putting so much effort into improving their game continuously. But perhaps we've been a bit spoiled by this and have pushed them to be too ambitious in their efforts.
This is just my vision of what a middle ground position on this matter could look like. I'm not even necessarily advocating that this is what the developers should do. I think it would be presumptuous of me to advocate for anything really. I'm just expressing the thoughts that run through my head when I mull over what Lawn Loaf has said above.

I would agree with this. The trading block issue needed to be fixed.. maybe we could have waited until the next version for the shop player sorting function. I don't think that caused any of the problems but just as an example of the kind of thing you are talking about.

[mickey7]

Originally Posted by Orcin

We know for a fact that the developer is willing to fix the game. The evidence is clear and ample. Patches were issued and much back-and-forth discussion between the developer and customers ensued on this forum related to the problems. The developer called for customers with issues to describe them in detail, upload files for testing, and provide system specs. The problems were related to AMD hardware, and the developer purchased AMD hardware to upgrade their testing capabilities. The developer issued an open beta patch and invited customers with the issue to test.

So when you say that the developer is unwilling to fix the problem, it shows that you are either not paying attention, cannot comprehend what is going on, or are just being stubborn and obnoxious.

That leaves us with "unable to fix the problems". First of all, it is important to note that many customers are NOT having problems. I, for one, am playing the game on the current version (build 70) without issue. I played the game for most of the week on build 64 without issue. I have no lag and no crashes. So the problems do NOT impact every user. The developer has to sort out which hardware configurations are having issues and investigate each of them. As battists explained earlier, there are many possible combinations to investigate, solve, and test.

So when you say the developer is unable to fix the problem, I submit that you have not given a reasonable amount of time for a solution to such a complex problem to be found and implemented. You may ultimately be correct but it is too early in the process to declare the effort a failure.

So how about having some patience?

Been around this game since it came out as Out of the Park Baseball----not OOTP-----have gone through a number of these issues and there have been a number of times that they have not been resolved. As far as willing to fix the game ----issuing "fixes" that make the game worse than it was before the "fix" really does prove effort ! I will make this simple----I bought this game to play it----it was playing fine-----the developer put out a patch for the game-----the patch broke the game----it is currently unplayable-----it is not my job to fix it, it is the developer's. I have purchased every single OOTP iteration as well as ITP, the ill fated boxing game, FHM 2 and 4 and probably would have bought the football game that is coming out. I know that you loyalists will defend this company and it's actions forever----good for you----I just want what I paid for !!!

[mitchkenn]

Originally Posted by mickey7

Been around this game since it came out as Out of the Park Baseball----not OOTP-----have gone through a number of these issues and there have been a number of times that they have not been resolved. As far as willing to fix the game ----issuing "fixes" that make the game worse than it was before the "fix" really does prove effort ! I will make this simple----I bought this game to play it----it was playing fine-----the developer put out a patch for the game-----the patch broke the game----it is currently unplayable-----it is not my job to fix it, it is the developer's. I have purchased every single OOTP iteration as well as ITP, the ill fated boxing game, FHM 2 and 4 and probably would have bought the football game that is coming out. I know that you loyalists will defend this company and it's actions forever----good for you----I just want what I paid for !!!

if it was playing well before the updates, why not roll back to an older version.
right, it is the developers job to fix it, but maybe they could do a little better/faster job with the files from players having issues, since it is not an universal issue. Some people are able to play. Maybe .... oh well, that doesn't matter obviously ..... sorry it's been a bummer for you and hope it's resolved for you soon.

[dkgo]

Originally Posted by mickey7

Been around this game since it came out as Out of the Park Baseball----not OOTP-----have gone through a number of these issues and there have been a number of times that they have not been resolved. As far as willing to fix the game ----issuing "fixes" that make the game worse than it was before the "fix" really does prove effort ! I will make this simple----I bought this game to play it----it was playing fine-----the developer put out a patch for the game-----the patch broke the game----it is currently unplayable-----it is not my job to fix it, it is the developer's. I have purchased every single OOTP iteration as well as ITP, the ill fated boxing game, FHM 2 and 4 and probably would have bought the football game that is coming out. I know that you loyalists will defend this company and it's actions forever----good for you----I just want what I paid for !!!

it is their job to fix it, and they are working on that job as evidenced by them talking with the impacted players to figure out the problem and putting out several patches trying to correct it.

software development troubleshooting isn't quite as easy as seeing a nail sticking out then hammering it down

personally i've had no gameplay interruptions at all and the newer patches with the trading block improvements have made the game better

[battists]

Originally Posted by Lawn Loaf

Why not take the resources allocated to updating and patching the current released version and put those into the next version so each version is as complete and not in need of multiple patches and updates?

There are several reasons why not:

1. The resources used to test the software are not the same as the resources used to develop the software. The next version of the software isn't ready to test yet (I'm assuming), so only development work can occur. There's nothing people could start testing right now, so if you put them into "next version" they will just be sitting on their hands right now. Yes, developers could be working on future stuff, but for reasons mentioned elsewhere in here, that's not the business decision they've made.

2. OOTP Dev's reputation is that they do release multiple free patches/enhancements during the product lifecycle. They've had this model for years and it's part of how they've managed a relatively dedicated following despite being a simulation and not a flashy graphics game. It's also worth noting it's the same model as just about every software product on the planet, give or take, with the exception that Markus seems more willing than many to do so. To change that model at this time would likely upset a lot of customers.

3. As I've mentioned before, a bugless release, while desirable, is simply an unrealistic goal in this day and age, especially with OOTP Dev's limited resources. So there are going to be bugs. At OOTP Dev's size, they don't even have a paid quality team / engineers. They have to rely almost exclusively on volunteers. Even if OOTP dev were to throw more resources at testing prior to release, they're never going to have bug free releases, and they don't seem interested in going to a model where they say "Sorry, no patches whatsoever, see you next year."

4. The business model calls for a new release each year. So they need to stick to a particular schedule in order to meet that deadline. Because they have, in effect, a "deadline" of late March to get the release out, their development timeline is fairly fixed. Even if they were to spend money to hire more testers, there are a few problems with that:

a. Even if you hire more testers, you only have the same few developers to fix any issues found. So, hiring more testers doesn't guarantee you're going to fix more issues before release.

b. Hiring testers costs money. Giving testers additional tools to do automation testing, etc., costs money. OOTP Dev is NOT a big money operation. Hiring people to do testing would likely have a significant negative impact on their bottom line, and while it's awesome to think about that flawless release, the truth is OOTP's model is the norm today.

Most OOTP Dev customers are already fairly high on the "satisfaction scale" with the quality of this product, recent patch issues notwithstanding. There's no reason to expect that thousands more people would buy this game if they had flawless releases instead "usually stable" releases. So ultimately that model would cost OOTP Dev money.

Just my thoughts, having worked as a paid part of OOTP Dev before, and also having been in software for many years.

[battists]

Originally Posted by mickey7

Been around this game since it came out as Out of the Park Baseball----not OOTP-----have gone through a number of these issues and there have been a number of times that they have not been resolved. As far as willing to fix the game ----issuing "fixes" that make the game worse than it was before the "fix" really does prove effort ! I will make this simple----I bought this game to play it----it was playing fine-----the developer put out a patch for the game-----the patch broke the game----it is currently unplayable-----it is not my job to fix it, it is the developer's. I have purchased every single OOTP iteration as well as ITP, the ill fated boxing game, FHM 2 and 4 and probably would have bought the football game that is coming out. I know that you loyalists will defend this company and it's actions forever----good for you----I just want what I paid for !!!

Just one minor note:

Putting out a patch DOES show effort, and indications seem to be that the patch DID help many people who were experiencing the problem. Just because it didn't fix your particular problem doesn't mean they aren't putting in effort.

As someone else mentioned, why not roll back to an earlier version of the game until OOTP Dev is able to resolve your particular issue?

You can find an older version of the game here:

http://ootpdevfiles.com/ootp/

Many of are loyal not because Markus is without flaws. He's certainly made some poor decisions at times in the past. They clearly made a mistake with this patch. There are features in OOTP that don't work the way I'd like, certainly. And I give my feedback and tell Markus about bugs and get annoyed when they don't get fixed as quickly as I'd like.

We're loyal because Markus has long showed, more than many many companies out there, that he wants to make a great game, he listens to feedback, and he works his butt off every year to put out a great game for his customers.

That's worth supporting even when there are snafus like this one.

[Reggie]

Originally Posted by battists

Just one minor note:

Putting out a patch DOES show effort, and indications seem to be that the patch DID help many people who were experiencing the problem. Just because it didn't fix your particular problem doesn't mean they aren't putting in effort.

As someone else mentioned, why not roll back to an earlier version of the game until OOTP Dev is able to resolve your particular issue?

You can find an older version of the game here:

http://ootpdevfiles.com/ootp/

Many of are loyal not because Markus is without flaws. He's certainly made some poor decisions at times in the past. They clearly made a mistake with this patch. There are features in OOTP that don't work the way I'd like, certainly. And I give my feedback and tell Markus about bugs and get annoyed when they don't get fixed as quickly as I'd like.

We're loyal because Markus has long showed, more than many many companies out there, that he wants to make a great game, he listens to feedback, and he works his butt off every year to put out a great game for his customers.

That's worth supporting even when there are snafus like this one.

And I would add that I waited and searched for a game just like this for 20+ years. Abandoning it now because of a glitch that may require a little legwork on my part isn't even an option.

[mitchkenn]

Originally Posted by battists

Just one minor note:

Putting out a patch DOES show effort, and indications seem to be that the patch DID help many people who were experiencing the problem. Just because it didn't fix your particular problem doesn't mean they aren't putting in effort.

As someone else mentioned, why not roll back to an earlier version of the game until OOTP Dev is able to resolve your particular issue?

You can find an older version of the game here:

http://ootpdevfiles.com/ootp/

Many of are loyal not because Markus is without flaws. He's certainly made some poor decisions at times in the past. They clearly made a mistake with this patch. There are features in OOTP that don't work the way I'd like, certainly. And I give my feedback and tell Markus about bugs and get annoyed when they don't get fixed as quickly as I'd like.

We're loyal because Markus has long showed, more than many many companies out there, that he wants to make a great game, he listens to feedback, and he works his butt off every year to put out a great game for his customers.

That's worth supporting even when there are snafus like this one.

think that's well written and i agree. thanks for putting the words for some of the customers that aren't having crisis issues with the game.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by battists

Just one minor note:

Putting out a patch DOES show effort, and indications seem to be that the patch DID help many people who were experiencing the problem. Just because it didn't fix your particular problem doesn't mean they aren't putting in effort.

As someone else mentioned, why not roll back to an earlier version of the game until OOTP Dev is able to resolve your particular issue?

You can find an older version of the game here:

http://ootpdevfiles.com/ootp/

Many of are loyal not because Markus is without flaws. He's certainly made some poor decisions at times in the past. They clearly made a mistake with this patch. There are features in OOTP that don't work the way I'd like, certainly. And I give my feedback and tell Markus about bugs and get annoyed when they don't get fixed as quickly as I'd like.

We're loyal because Markus has long showed, more than many many companies out there, that he wants to make a great game, he listens to feedback, and he works his butt off every year to put out a great game for his customers.

That's worth supporting even when there are snafus like this one.

I have to admit I've rolled back to an earlier version. It's called OOTP16. That version didn't feature a spinning cursor at all.

[3fbrown]

I am now getting crashes again. It seems to happen when I sim for a long period of time - a few years maybe. At some point the game crashes. Sad...will probably go back to last stable version (.53?) until this gets fixed.

[Markus Heinsohn]

OK, let's look at this rationally.

- Patch 19.8.64 introduced a lag and crashes for users with AMD processors. Unfortunately this was not caught during beta testing, as can always happen when a problem only exists on a small percentage of systems.
- Patch 19.8.69 fixed the lag (after we worked 24 hours straight on trying to identify the issue), but introduced a crash while simulating (new issue). This patch was rushed out to help with people with the lag, and unfortunately the simulation crashes were not caught before that. **** happens. We are human after all.
- Patch 19.8.70 fixes the simulation crash, and for 99.99% of the people this runs stable. However, we still have a handful of reports that say the game is still lagging, or randomly crashing. Now our job is to find out why, and this is incredibly difficult, as these issues are likely not related to the original problem and can be all sorts of things which even may have nothing to do with the game (outdated drivers, other apps running in the background, faulty RAM etc).

Having said that, we are still working on this and will do the best we can to find out the problems and fix them if they are code-related.

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by mm7607

I wouldn't know what files to send. It doesn't seem to matter what league I have loaded the game just crashes after a few months sim time. Also trying to play a game causes a crash at the lineup screen.

Please email lukas@ootpdevelopments.com and we can try to find out what is going on for you. It is likely something else than the original problem. Have you updated your graphic card drivers?

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by Lawn Loaf

Why not take the resources allocated to updating and patching the current released version and put those into the next version so each version is as complete and not in need of multiple patches and updates?

Because we have a history of adding new features and tweaks to the game even long after release. And usually that works fine, people are thankful, and everybody is happy.

Of course, this time it went wrong, but I find it a head-scratcher that certain people now cry out and accuse us of all sorts of things, when in the past 99% of releases went flawless, which is an achievement of monumental propertions when you consider the complexity of OOTP.

[hammerstringz]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

OK, let's look at this rationally.

- Patch 19.8.64 introduced a lag and crashes for users with AMD processors. Unfortunately this was not caught during beta testing, as can always happen when a problem only exists on a small percentage of systems.
- Patch 19.8.69 fixed the lag (after we worked 24 hours straight on trying to identify the issue), but introduced a crash while simulating (new issue). This patch was rushed out to help with people with the lag, and unfortunately the simulation crashes were not caught before that. **** happens. We are human after all.
- Patch 19.8.70 fixes the simulation crash, and for 99.99% of the people this runs stable. However, we still have a handful of reports that say the game is still lagging, or randomly crashing. Now our job is to find out why, and this is incredibly difficult, as these issues are likely not related to the original problem and can be all sorts of things which even may have nothing to do with the game (outdated drivers, other apps running in the background, faulty RAM etc).

Having said that, we are still working on this and will do the best we can to find out the problems and fix them if they are code-related.

I went from .64 to .70, so I couldn't tell you if .69 fixed the lag for my AMD & Nvidia. I have steam & it updates automatically when I log in & I didn't log in time for the .69. But I can say that .70 & .64 annoyingly lags. I appreciate all the efforts, you guys haven't given up nor quit. I don't understand the no grace period. I think I would only complain if it was being ignored, which it's not. So, thanks.

[Lukas Berger]

I will try to collect the data from this thread on anyone still having issues, but if you're having problems on the latest patch, particularly significant freezing or lagging, can you please refer to this thread:

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...d.php?t=292037

Try the initial steps mentioned there and if they don't help, please post in that thread with the requested data about your system. Thanks!

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by hammerstringz

The lag is still annoying. It used to be click click go.. now it's click.. wait.. click... wait... and it still feels like it takes twice as long to finish a game than before the recent patch.

PC... AMD... Nvidia

Originally Posted by Grapeshine

Same issue here.

Can you guys take a look here, and reply in that thread with the requested info? Thanks!

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar....php?p=4358942

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by hammerstringz

I went from .64 to .70, so I couldn't tell you if .69 fixed the lag for my AMD & Nvidia. I have steam & it updates automatically when I log in & I didn't log in time for the .69. But I can say that .70 & .64 annoyingly lags. I appreciate all the efforts, you guys haven't given up nor quit. I don't understand the no grace period. I think I would only complain if it was being ignored, which it's not. So, thanks.

Thanks for letting us know. So apparently build 70 is still lagging for some users with an AMD CPU, which is really weird. But, we won't give up, in fact we bought a AMD PC just for that reason (we're setting it up right now), so let's hope that machine also has this error so we can nail down the reason...

[hammerstringz]

Originally Posted by Lukas Berger

Can you guys take a look here, and reply in that thread with the requested info? Thanks!

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar....php?p=4358942

I just did everything listed & sent the email with the specs from liberty thunder. I played a game & everything, hope it showed the long delay between plays & screens on the trace, and also that long non-responsive message when trying to select a pitcher to warm up at the start of the 8th.