Beta Hotfix Patch 70 (Version 19.8.70)!

[Lawn Loaf]

Originally Posted by mm7607

Well putting all the senseless bickering aside, this game is not working. I can get about 2 months played and then a crash. Won't restart until the second try. Also, it doesn't matter what league I'm using. I also did a complete uninstall and reinstall. Still the same.

So can we get an update from someone who knows whats going on?

Dude, my bickering is sticking up for you. I'm asking the questions that no one either dares or seems reasonable enough to answer.
I have never downloaded any patch or update, my game runs great, however, I was one click away from terminal hamster wheel waste of life troubleshooting status.

My conscience told me leave it alone. I honestly could give two poops less, but being as I am a new user and naive to the temperamental nature of these same patches and updates the old timers pine and live for, I thought I would question the need and desire for them.

I wish I had an answer for you, but as I have found out, if you get critical at all, all you get is trash.

You should not have to go through the nonsense you are describing to play a game.

And you should not be told this is the newest version of the game, pay for it, and then be subject to endless ill tested patches and updates to play.

There is your "bickering".

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Lawn Loaf

Look, you just made my argument for me: "No, its because users request them and then expect them to be added because most of them are "easy" and should be in the game"

Yet, you never answered my question in regards to putting out a complete working game without the need for updates and patching, and putting those resources into the next version of the game.
What you are telling me is that the majority of users on this game EXPECT to pay for an incomplete game that requires patches, updates, and user beware...
I'm not up for a good hamster wheel spin when I pay for what I EXPECT, is a clear running and functional game.
However, why do I care? I have not installed any patch or update.
However, I know now that if I purchase this game on the release date, I do so knowing that is an unfinished product.
Not to be degrading, but I will refer to this game as the "cult of Markus" and no longer OOTP

Originally Posted by Lawn Loaf

"People are human. That means we make mistakes. Sometimes they are big ones. Sometimes they are small ones. Sometimes they are big to some and not to others."
Tell that to the next mechanic or contractor who you pay to do a job and it isn't done up to the expectations of what you were understanding it would be.
You have a strawman argument, recommend me to going back to "my happy life" because I bitch about a product I paid for full price, under the assumption it was in working condition, complete and playable, and it is not.
Take your "workplace exceptionalism" and stick it where the sun don't shine!
Please make sure you don't bring up any conditions to my argument, tell me to suck it up and like it. Damn, the cult runs deep....
I'll entertain an actual discussion to my qualms, not your mindless chatter.

Originally Posted by Lawn Loaf

Thanks for the deep insight and depth of your counter argument.
I don't need to be baited into a loss leader of a discussion in regards to my "happiness".
I have asked legit questions, hopefully someone can enlighten me and dissuade me from my current position.

Originally Posted by Lawn Loaf

Why should I care, of course the blanket sabotage argument: Check out my image and answer your own question.

You say "Of course OOTP could go the way of other producers and just tell users "too bad, wait til next version"."
Or better yet, sell an incomplete game that you claim is the next version, with no acknowledgements or claims that is not complete or will need patches and updates: you go ahead and purchase under this false understanding, at full asking price, this game.
Then you find out it is not what you were led to believe, your answer is to quote 10 PC games that were not as advertised and tell me too bad, ship has sailed with your old school mentality? Really? Why do I care about 10 f'ing PC games, this is the only PC game I have purchased in the last 10 years.
Bud, make sure you do the testing for them and ride that hamster wheel of eternal gratitude, because they "gave" you this game to play.
Sounds like some Stockholm Syndrome to me, Again, tell me how that is right?

Of course, your answer to close all dialog is the whole "ship has sailed" silencer.

Maybe I have some faith in this crew, however if you believe all faith should never be questioned, how about you PYHOOYA and check out all the faith I have put in this game at this thread:

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...d.php?t=285409

Really, I get a kick out of sharing my time, so jump of a bridge with all the veiled personal attacks.

Again, don't bring any argument to the table, simply crap on my concern and call me a malcontent, my argument means nothing and blah blah.
Still waiting for a valid counter to my argument.

and again, I'm glad you applied all the precautions to save yourself from the headache of having a patch or update obliterate your game, but what I gather from your post is you have probably involuntarily been forced on the hamster wheel of patch f-up before, you are wise to it now. Many others are not.
So that is the reason I post so much, and why I care.

Originally Posted by Lawn Loaf

Get outta here claiming a sympathy card. With the way OOTP players react to any questioning of the structure or integrity of the game, and how willing they are to jump on the hamster wheel of what I consider unneeded troubleshooting when the game goes to hell, I'd describe that mentality as cult like.
I'm not attacking anybody, and quit with the attack on me as a resolution to my disagreement.
If you would like to actually argue with me and my points with an actual counter argument, I'd be quite happy to hear it.

Originally Posted by Lawn Loaf

You are right. All you have said is correct. I have ignorantly put my time into a product that wasn't all I was led to believe was. And nonetheless, I have paid a pittance for it. Hell, if I put a lousy dollar into a claw grabber machine and it gives me a split second of reaction time, I need to shut up. I'll hug my kids and tell them daddy made a mistake to believe the machine was legit.
I'm so hostile because I ask questions, and won't take ad hominem attacks or wafer thin vague "it's just how it is" answers, and remind me by golly, for chrissakes, I ought to read a book!

And make sure you question who loves me or what I love.
Great argument my friend, don't worry, I'll obsess over your reply

Originally Posted by Lawn Loaf

Dude, my bickering is sticking up for you. I'm asking the questions that no one either dares or seems reasonable enough to answer.
I have never downloaded any patch or update, my game runs great, however, I was one click away from terminal hamster wheel waste of life troubleshooting status.

My conscience told me leave it alone. I honestly could give two poops less, but being as I am a new user and naive to the temperamental nature of these same patches and updates the old timers pine and live for, I thought I would question the need and desire for them.

I wish I had an answer for you, but as I have found out, if you get critical at all, all you get is trash.

You should not have to go through the nonsense you are describing to play a game.

And you should not be told this is the newest version of the game, pay for it, and then be subject to endless ill tested patches and updates to play.

There is your "bickering".

[hillm2ca]

I can understand the frustration over the issues associated with the release of the last few patches. It can be despairing losing progress in the middle of a game and obviously should not happen, as Markus and everyone would agree. At the same time, I do think it is unfair to accuse the team of selling an "incomplete" product on release day, requiring a series of patches to add the missing features. Every game I have played over the years has included developers/programmers sending out patches for a game after it was released. I would not call this fraud, but rather a demonstration of responsibility to make the best product available. Games today are quite complex. OOTP is no exception.
If anything, many of the things featured in patches are additions that the community asks the development team to implement in the game. And, yes, there are other that are based on fixing various issues and broken features that are sometimes introduced by these new patches.
I would not normally comment on a shouting match occurring online, because they are all too common on the Internet. However, what I am saying is that I understand the frustration and disappointment regarding the patches. I am frustrated, too. However, take into consideration that the development team has always worked hard to improve the game. They have too much to lose not to. I have faith that the current issues will be fixed and everyone will move on. And I agree, it is just a video game - a great one at that. Let's keep some perspective.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by Lawn Loaf

Get outta here claiming a sympathy card. With the way OOTP players react to any questioning of the structure or integrity of the game, and how willing they are to jump on the hamster wheel of what I consider unneeded troubleshooting when the game goes to hell, I'd describe that mentality as cult like.
I'm not attacking anybody, and quit with the attack on me as a resolution to my disagreement.
If you would like to actually argue with me and my points with an actual counter argument, I'd be quite happy to hear it.

I don’t come here to argue. I would be happy to answer your questions however, if I could figure out what they are. I can’t find any questions buried among all your hysterics. Maybe there are some and I missed them. Give me the tl;dr version of your questions without any screaming or ranting, and I will give it a shot.

[battists]

Originally Posted by Lawn Loaf

Thanks for the deep insight and depth of your counter argument.
I don't need to be baited into a loss leader of a discussion in regards to my "happiness".
I have asked legit questions, hopefully someone can enlighten me and dissuade me from my current position.

Just curious, did my lengthy post about software development and OOTP not answer any of your questions? What questions do you still have, understanding that you may not agree with the decisions behind my answers.

[mickey7]

Battists----who cares about your "explanation" ? The facts are I bought this game----it was working just fine-----the developer broke the game-----the developer is either unable or unwilling to fix the game !!! That sir is the crux of the matter----nothing else !!!

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by mickey7

the developer is either unable or unwilling to fix the game !!!

We know for a fact that the developer is willing to fix the game. The evidence is clear and ample. Patches were issued and much back-and-forth discussion between the developer and customers ensued on this forum related to the problems. The developer called for customers with issues to describe them in detail, upload files for testing, and provide system specs. The problems were related to AMD hardware, and the developer purchased AMD hardware to upgrade their testing capabilities. The developer issued an open beta patch and invited customers with the issue to test.

So when you say that the developer is unwilling to fix the problem, it shows that you are either not paying attention, cannot comprehend what is going on, or are just being stubborn and obnoxious.

That leaves us with "unable to fix the problems". First of all, it is important to note that many customers are NOT having problems. I, for one, am playing the game on the current version (build 70) without issue. I played the game for most of the week on build 64 without issue. I have no lag and no crashes. So the problems do NOT impact every user. The developer has to sort out which hardware configurations are having issues and investigate each of them. As battists explained earlier, there are many possible combinations to investigate, solve, and test.

So when you say the developer is unable to fix the problem, I submit that you have not given a reasonable amount of time for a solution to such a complex problem to be found and implemented. You may ultimately be correct but it is too early in the process to declare the effort a failure.

So how about having some patience?

[battists]

Was going to reply in detail but Orcin pretty much covered it. Besides, I was trying to figure out if I had answered any of Lawn Loaf's questions.

[Lawn Loaf]

Originally Posted by battists

Just curious, did my lengthy post about software development and OOTP not answer any of your questions? What questions do you still have, understanding that you may not agree with the decisions behind my answers.

I appreciated your answer and thanked you for it. Go back and see for yourself.
Your answer was the most informative and didn't need to resort to name calling because I asked a question.

The question everyone seems to think I am angry over is simple: Why not take the resources allocated to updating and patching the current released version and put those into the next version so each version is as complete and not in need of multiple patches and updates?

[BirdWatcher]

Originally Posted by Lawn Loaf

I appreciated your answer and thanked you for it. Go back and see for yourself.
Your answer was the most informative and didn't need to resort to name calling because I asked a question.

The question everyone seems to think I am angry over is simple: Why not take the resources allocated to updating and patching the current released version and put those into the next version so each version is as complete and not in need of multiple patches and updates?

To my mind this seems like a perfectly reasonable question. Stated just this way, without hyperbole or recriminations, I see no reason that anyone here, including the developers, would object to this question. Now whether the final answer to this will be to your liking, or mine, is unknowable at this time. But, with the caveat that ultimately the decision is out of our hands, it seems like a perfectly reasonable question to discuss.

[Déjà Bru]

That is in fact a good question. It kind of resonates with what I said here in the Optimized Image Resize thread.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by Lawn Loaf

Why not take the resources allocated to updating and patching the current released version and put those into the next version so each version is as complete and not in need of multiple patches and updates?

That is a good question. Thank you for re-stating it so that I could understand it. Of course, I can't answer this because I am not the developer. However, I would like to know the answer.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Lawn Loaf

I appreciated your answer and thanked you for it. Go back and see for yourself.
Your answer was the most informative and didn't need to resort to name calling because I asked a question.

The question everyone seems to think I am angry over is simple: Why not take the resources allocated to updating and patching the current released version and put those into the next version so each version is as complete and not in need of multiple patches and updates?

I'm all for patches that fix bugs. No way they will ever be able to release this game without bugs popping up here and there. I do question adding new features to a game that is working fine. Especially when certain developers like to run to the "it's your system card" so often. Gee, my game is working fine as of August 13th. My system is fine. August 14th I have to update my video card, get a measles shot and or look into buying a high end gaming machine. UGH! That's dirty pool in my opinion.

[simonmagnus2006]

I've tried reading through some of this, but it devolves into not much help. The lag in the game since the patch is horrible. 3-4 seconds to change a screen. Have we found a solution for this?

[NoOne]

So, how's all this going?

[mitchkenn]

has anyone having issues sent their files to be looked at? Maybe i missed that in all the back and forth. Sending the files and having the exact files that are causing issues would be a large help to resolving this issue - for those that are having it.

[mm7607]

Originally Posted by mitchkenn

has anyone having issues sent their files to be looked at? Maybe i missed that in all the back and forth. Sending the files and having the exact files that are causing issues would be a large help to resolving this issue - for those that are having it.

I wouldn't know what files to send. It doesn't seem to matter what league I have loaded the game just crashes after a few months sim time. Also trying to play a game causes a crash at the lineup screen.

[Reggie]

Doubt this will help with anything. But I will put it on here anyway. I'm having the exact same problem I was having after the game was first released. Playing out games the screen will randomly go crazy and then clear up and it freezes. No indication of when it will happen... it's at random times.

I have played dozens and dozens and dozens of games since then.. not sure if it was a patch that fixed it or if it was me putting all the graphics settings on the lowest possible ( static crowd, no shadows etc ). But as I said, I have played A LOT of games since then without a single incident until the hot fix. Playing at work so not connected to internet with laptop to send files right now.

I'm using windows 8.1 64 bit
Intel Core i3-3227U 1.9 GHz
6 GB RAM
Intel HD Graphics 4000 Integrated Graphics

[mitchkenn]

Originally Posted by mm7607

I wouldn't know what files to send. It doesn't seem to matter what league I have loaded the game just crashes after a few months sim time. Also trying to play a game causes a crash at the lineup screen.

here's a link on how to ftp the files, and what to send ... as in Lukas sig.
http://support.ootpdevelopments.com/...p-developments

also, send him an email that you are sending the files, or fill out of support ticket.

specifically these are what files to send.
"In the saved_games folder you'll see folders that end in ".lg". Find the folder that corresponds to the league you need to send us and zip up all of the files in there that end in ".dat" (don't send any other files unless asked to do so). There should be 16 of them. Finally, copy this zip file to the other window with the ftp folder and it should start copying it there. It might take up to a few minutes to copy. "

in this link, is where you can find his email, which is in his signature file as well

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...er.php?u=19488

without specific files that are having issues, they are grasping for straws.

[waittilnextyear]

Originally Posted by Lawn Loaf

Why not take the resources allocated to updating and patching the current released version and put those into the next version so each version is as complete and not in need of multiple patches and updates?

I think abandoning the current title to concentrate on the next one would alienate a lot of the customers who are having issues with this version. My impression is that OOTP recognizes that it is a niche game and that customer loyalty is massively important for them. Most people are reasonable about accepting X% of imperfections in their product as long as the developers are responsive to decreasing that percentage in a timely manner. I doubt customers are as accepting of Y% imperfections (even if Y is lesser than X) if it means no support or possibility of issues being fixed. For this reason, customer support is always ongoing. That's why the dev cycle goes: development, testing, release, patching/support instead of just the first 3 steps.

I also think that a perfect version is something of a "unicorn" and will never be achieved. This was described more eloquently in an earlier post about how impossible it is to debug every permutation/configuration possible. There will always be a few people out there, whether through some fault of their own or not, who have incompatibilities and certain problems with hardware, settings, etc. Cashing in all your chips to focus on the next game sounds nice, but there will always be things to fix no matter how well the resources are focused. That is, I doubt the patching/support phase could ever be done without. Factor in the complexities of software development, the breakneck pace in hardware evolution, and the small studio at OOTP trying to navigate it all; I think the best that we can hope for is to use common sense (make backups of important files, don't act like a petulant child when asking for tech support) and hope the bugs that do arise are not crushing to deal with. If you are one of the unlucky ones that does suffer from a game-breaking bug, the hope is the developers address it as expediently as possible.