Bring Back Manual

[fredbeene]

Originally Posted by Eugene Church

I used to work at the student union at a university.
It was one of our jobs to keep the student union operation manual up-to-date.

It was a very difficult thing to do because procedures and policies were in a constant state of change and flux.
And we worked hard to keep it up-to-date and we had people to do it.

OOTP has no such luxury in personnel.
Updating the OOTP manual is a full-time job.
The best you can hope for is to get help in a general way about the game basics.

The OOTP24 manual is sufficient.
And on occasion it will help with a complex question, but not very often.

OMG lol...updating a manual is a full time job? that is insane.
Posing a users and going to social media is the FULL TIME job.

You have been playing a long time. There are still people who use it.
I used to to show to everyone that right in the manual it states SPEED is based on rate of stealing.

[fredbeene]

Originally Posted by twins_34

Might be logical to you but to the rest of the world, not so much. Maybe instead of sitting here complaining about the game, become a beta tester so you can actually see what goes on. It's not even very hard to do it. Then it may open your eyes to see how much this dev crew busts their butts with very little thanks!

are you the devs mom?
how do you know how much they 'bust their butt'? vs daytrading vs working other jobs vs whatever?
are you saying they are not getting paid? they need more then pay?
thank goodness 'the rest of the world' is sending the 'devs' personal thank you notes and inspirational motivation to keep them from crying. It is that extra time paying customers are devoting that get us sexy new sox and font changes!

i would gather most post here are really the ongoing beta testers neglected and unthanked while doing devs work

[jcard]

Originally Posted by twins_34

This just is not worth trying to respond to. No one here was talking about past versions, but thanks for chiming in?

Dear diary: today I was mocked on-line by an adult… using a cartoon picture… based on his misinterpretation of one of my earlier replies. The internet, like the zoo, truly is an instrument to broaden one’s appreciation of the diversity of life.

I’ll at least try to clarify the disconnect. By “legacy” game I meant what you call the “base” game, not earlier versions of the software…

Now, is this where I sign off with sarcastic smugness and double-thumbs-up smiley-face kicker?

[kq76]

Sincere question: did the game industry in general not stop putting out manuals long ago? The other games I play I'm not sure if manuals from the company even exist. I just google all my questions and they usually direct to reddit or some other site. I'm not saying the industry is right to. My guess is their thinking is just, well, others don't so should we really put resources into it? At the very least I do think a company owes it to their customer base to support a wiki or something like it. But even with that I think the devs do need to contribute to it as too often I'll see answers to my questions (on other games) that are clearly incorrect. We can't just be relying on the input of people who are only guessing or on purpose putting out fake info.

[Eugene Church]

Originally Posted by fredbeene

OMG lol...updating a manual is a full time job? that is insane.
Posing a users and going to social media is the FULL TIME job.

You have been playing a long time. There are still people who use it.
I used to to show to everyone that right in the manual it states SPEED is based on rate of stealing.

Sorry, I am not up-to-date on this subject.
I was not aware that you no longer have access to a game manual.
I just converted to OOTP25 and just saw that they no longer list a game manual.
They should inform us of this.

We need a manual.
And it would be great if it was up-to-date and really helpful.
But that is not the case.
It is what it is and it is not really that good, but I can understand them not spending their time on the manual.
The game is the important thing.

If they are going to not publish the manual anymore, they should say so and tell why.
New customers and people new to the game need a manual.

No, updating the manual was only part of the job at the Student Union..
I was also in charge of all student employees at the Student Union and the maintenance and setup crew. We had 12 meeting rooms from conference size to 100, 200, 500 and a 1000 capacity, including a large ballroom.

Of course, like OOTP, updating the manual was not the most important part of the job at the Student Union.
But we did have one.

[twins_34]

Originally Posted by fredbeene

are you the devs mom?
how do you know how much they 'bust their butt'? vs daytrading vs working other jobs vs whatever?

Yeah I actually do.

Originally Posted by fredbeene

are you saying they are not getting paid? they need more then pay?
thank goodness 'the rest of the world' is sending the 'devs' personal thank you notes and inspirational motivation to keep them from crying. It is that extra time paying customers are devoting that get us sexy new sox and font changes!

Totally unneeded and no one said the devs are not being paid and yeah amazingly kindness goes a long way but it seems to escape you.

Originally Posted by fredbeene

i would gather most post here are really the ongoing beta testers neglected and unthanked (sic) while doing devs work

I do not know one person who is a beta tester in this conversation but I do know where you can find a list of beta testers for the game.

[biggerme]

While there have been discussions about the missing manual, I haven't seen many concrete solutions proposed.

My goal in starting this thread was to highlight the absence of a user guide, a resource available for all previous versions of the software (even if the quality varied). Many simulation games have plenty of community-created content to help others. However, with OOTP, I've found some helpful stuff in forums, but navigating what has been created over the years is rather cumbersome.

To address this gap, we could explore ways to involve the community. This could involve creating user-generated content like tips and tricks, acknowledging that experience plays a role in vetting such information.

That's why I proposed using the Notion platform with initial draft . It's easy to use, scalable, can include several contributors, and is visually appealing. The free plan is good enough for most, but since I am subscribing to the paid plan anyway because I use it extensively, I could manage the Admin role. However, doing it alone isn't feasible without community input.
OOTP WIKI
The initial structure needs improvement. The manual structure had a different purpose, but it serves as a starting point.

So, anyone willing and able, I'm open to proposals.

[md40022]

Originally Posted by biggerme

While there have been discussions about the missing manual, I haven't seen many concrete solutions proposed.

A concrete solution to come up with a manual? Okay, here's a real simple and practical one....

The employees of the company that makes the game could create a manual. Just like every other company does for every product that they create.


If you want a more complicated and silly solution, I suppose there is this one....

The users of the game, who have already invested several hundred dollars into X amount of versions of the game since the games initial creation can brain storm on a message forum about how not only are they the primary resource for support on a game that they do not profit from but now how it is also their responsibility to also come up with a concrete way to create a manual. But again, that is a silly solution because why in the world would that be something that would fall on the user's plate.

The solution is simple. The creators of the game make a manual. It's their job. Literally, it is their job.

[md40022]

^^^^ sorry if the tone of that came off as crappy. Truly didn't mean it that way.

The frustrating thing is the devs are very well aware of this thread. They see it. They are reading it. They haven't said a peep. And after 4 or 5 pages of some pretty solid discussion, now the thread has fallen off the tracks in the last several responses...... and that's pretty much the way message forums have always worked, right? I a little bit of decent discussion but eventually it turns into diarrhea. At the end of the day its not any of our responsibility to come up manual and/or solution to create a manual..... This forum has kept the game afloat for years because god knows the game does not get promoted, marketed or supported at all by the ones who should actually be doing it. So thank god for this forum. My honest opinion is OOTP wouldn't even be in business anymore if not for the community here. So to not even get a response from the staff when someone says, "hey, any chance we can get a manual" is really crappy IMO

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by kq76

Sincere question: did the game industry in general not stop putting out manuals long ago? The other games I play I'm not sure if manuals from the company even exist. I just google all my questions and they usually direct to reddit or some other site. I'm not saying the industry is right to. My guess is their thinking is just, well, others don't so should we really put resources into it? At the very least I do think a company owes it to their customer base to support a wiki or something like it. But even with that I think the devs do need to contribute to it as too often I'll see answers to my questions (on other games) that are clearly incorrect. We can't just be relying on the input of people who are only guessing or on purpose putting out fake info.

Yes. Nowadays, too, when I have a question about a game I go look up a wiki for it, even for a super complicated game like Europa Universalis. Occasionally I'll play a game that has a big, robust manual but those are nearly always boomer-focused games like Steel Panthers style WW2 wargames. These wikis are almost always maintained by the fanbase, not the game creators. Take that for what you will.

I guess in that respect OOTP, being about baseball, which right now is the most old-person focused sport in the US outside of golf, a manual would make more sense... but on the third hand, it'd just be really cool if someone started to put together a wiki for the game that everyone could contribute to...

[HerbD]

We have all(those of us that were around at least) accepted that there will be no head to head.

We have all accepted that we cannot use the real Japanese league(or even talk about it).

Most have accepted that there may never actually be a Chase for the Pennant.

As soon as the next big thing OOTP related(good or bad) squirels our attention, most will accept that we will never see a proper manual.

BUT....

Almost all of us will still buy the game next year when it comes out, because that's what we do!

[Bill Veeck]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

it'd just be really cool if someone started to put together a wiki for the game that everyone could contribute to...

Great that someone is

[szczepam]

Originally Posted by Brad K

There was a manual for 24 and all people did was complain about how useless it was. I'd say at this point you could use the 24 manual and supplement it with what has been posted to the board and be better off than we were last year.

The answer to that then should be to create a useful manual each year for the game

[textilemonster]

Originally Posted by fredbeene

I used to to show to everyone that right in the manual it states SPEED is based on rate of stealing.

Wait, so then what stat is their actual running speed?

[Baby Ruth]

Originally Posted by textilemonster

Wait, so then what stat is their actual running speed?

Seems to me that it should be the other way around, i.e. speed determines rate of base stealing.

[Eugene Church]

Originally Posted by HerbD

We have all(those of us that were around at least) accepted that there will be no head to head.

We have all accepted that we cannot use the real Japanese league(or even talk about it).

Most have accepted that there may never actually be a Chase for the Pennant.

As soon as the next big thing OOTP related(good or bad) squirels our attention, most will accept that we will never see a proper manual.

BUT....

Almost all of us will still buy the game next year when it comes out, because that's what we do!

Yeah, buddy... you nailed it.

If you play OOTP long enough, you will just accept its shortcomings and just enjoy and play the absolutely wonderful game as they give it to us.

[jcard]

Quick follow-up points on the question of engine formulae disclosure and its uses (min-maxing, optimization, et al; basically, Math > Baseball):

1. As I said earlier, that playing style doesn’t appeal to me (really, it is just exploiting the inherent modeling limitations to represent human actions in binary code). That noted however, there is nothing inherently wrong with giving others the option to play that way—no one is forced to change their approach to the game (parallels could be drawn with the availability of Commissioner Mode).

2. Not every use of explicit operations is about getting a competitive edge. Textbook-style examples demonstrating actual results of changing settings for LTMs, PCMs, injury / fatigue, TCR, development and aging, etc., would be of great use in best creating a world / league in game that accords with the one in your mind.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by jcard

Quick follow-up points on the question of engine formulae disclosure and its uses (min-maxing, optimization, et al; basically, Math > Baseball):

1. As I said earlier, that playing style doesn’t appeal to me (really, it is just exploiting the inherent modeling limitations to represent human actions in binary code). That noted however, there is nothing inherently wrong with giving others the option to play that way—no one is forced to change their approach to the game (parallels could be drawn with the availability of Commissioner Mode).

2. Not every use of explicit operations is about getting a competitive edge. Textbook-style examples demonstrating actual results of changing settings for LTMs, PCMs, injury / fatigue, TCR, development and aging, etc., would be of great use in best creating a world / league in game that accords with the one in your mind.

With a solo only game that's fine. Once you include multiplayer online it kind of forces one type of player to switch or lose to those that do. Never mind that it is still an issue in online leagues as someone (most?, I hope not) are playing the code to win, not baseball. And if it is only one, that is one too many and why online play is something I have no interest in.

[Syd Thrift]

I mean, that’s like exactly what happens in PT to some extent: you figure out the meta, you play it or else you don’t win. Ideally you want to set up a situation where there are multiple metas and I guess PT got a little better with that with the addition of chemistry and combinators but yeah that’s not for me. I even go so far as to play with reduced information available so that I have the chance to make bad, non-productive decisions that make sense at the time and with the info I do have, but I can also understand that a lot of people flat out do not like to play like that (and I think of an EU4 player I watch a fair amount of, Aumba07, who will spend hours lining up all the pros and cons of decisions, which to me makes him super interesting to watch if I’m in the mood, but then it also causes him to do the same thing every single time, which is less fun if understandable).

This is kind of part of why I am all for a user-generated wiki to stand apart from a company-generated one. The OOTPD version can say “hey, version 25 has hot dog prices updating chemistry of players with a high hot dog rating” whereas a user version might have the results of somebody doing a 100 season study on the exact effect of hot dog prices (note: this is obviously not a planned feature).

[biggerme]

It seems this discussion has mostly concluded. I started with a question and eventually answered it myself. There was good dialogue for a while, some of it maybe a little off-topic, as is the nature of forums.

Now, I have shifted my focus to building the OOTP WIKI. I wanted to learn something new anyway, so it's a good opportunity. I will post some conclusions on that site - ootpwiki.notion.site.
Hope to get back to updating PT line-ups, finishing some missions, opening packs, and enjoying the game itself.

Thanks to everyone who contributed!