Do We Need Talent Change Randomness?

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Brad K

I previously posted a revision of the question which is "what does it do?" Is that more agreeable to you?

Why does it matter how you revise the question when you've already determined "we don't need it."?

Originally Posted by Brad K

It exists in historical games to provide variation from real life performance. However the game engine natural randomness does that on it's own. That's my actual point in starting this thread. And so since its function is already fulfilled it isn't working to make the game better and we don't need it.

If the game had floors and ceilings on player's output in historical games, then maybe TCR would have a job to do.

You may want to qualify that "it isn't working to make the game better" with a "to me".

Many replies being made here from other users seem to indicate it makes the game better for them.

[Rain King]

Originally Posted by Brad K

Really? There are all kinds of things in life that aren't prohibited but that are really stupid to do.

Sorry, I have no idea how this statement is relevant...particularly to the post you are quoting.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by Rain King

Sorry, I have no idea how this statement is relevant...particularly to the post you are quoting.

Its relevant because by making it the default devs were at least showing that most of the time it was the smart choice. Kind of a change at your own risk sort of thing. Or like maybe change it if you want but if you don't like the consequences, remember, I already told you.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by Sweed

Why does it matter how you revise the question when you've already determined "we don't need it."?



You may want to qualify that "it isn't working to make the game better" with a "to me".

Many replies being made here from other users seem to indicate it makes the game better for them.

Actually "to me" is a big issue here. The cheerleaders dismiss observations of actual malfunctions from the standpoint they don't play that way and if the user doesn't like it turn the feature off.

[Rain King]

Originally Posted by Brad K

Its relevant because by making it the default devs were at least showing that most of the time it was the smart choice. Kind of a change at your own risk sort of thing. Or like maybe change it if you want but if you don't like the consequences, remember, I already told you.

I don't know why a default has to be that set in stone to you. Especially since there are a LOT of options in the game.

Also, in OOTP25 it isn't the default for ALL historical setups, just those that lean towards a fictional sim with historical players (i.e. "Career Mode" and "Random Debut Mode").

For both "Default Mode" and "Replay Mode" the development settings are "Off" by default, which is a pretty big indication that the setting makes sense in certain situations and not so much in others.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Brad K

Its relevant because by making it the default devs were at least showing that most of the time it was the smart choice. Kind of a change at your own risk sort of thing. Or like maybe change it if you want but if you don't like the consequences, remember, I already told you.

Not sure if it still is, but remember that for years and years "League Evolution" was on by default. A feature that could have been great if it wasn't simply added to the game and never touched again. Instead, it being on by default only served to ruin 1000" of leagues created by those new to the game. Have to think if's no longer on by default, as I don't remember seeing the numerous my league is broken threads.

[kcyr41]

I'll be honest - I think TCR (or something adjacent to it) is BROKEN.

I've got a league that is in 2033 and I just discovered that Wilyer Abreu (who at this point is a 33 year old journeyman OF for the Rockies who has posted a combined -0.6 WAR over the past 2 seasons) just jumped from a 47/80 to 80/80.

TCR is set to 90 / 200 in my league (slightly below average). Something wonky is happening for sure, most likely related to the most recent update. It really should be fixed (right after I trade for Abreu and change TCR to 0 ).

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by Rain King

I don't know why a default has to be that set in stone to you. Especially since there are a LOT of options in the game.

Also, in OOTP25 it isn't the default for ALL historical setups, just those that lean towards a fictional sim with historical players (i.e. "Career Mode" and "Random Debut Mode").

For both "Default Mode" and "Replay Mode" the development settings are "Off" by default, which is a pretty big indication that the setting makes sense in certain situations and not so much in others.

Its an indication that the devs turned the section over to a volunteer who set it up the way he liked instead of how the data OOTP collects shows people play.

But again you're obscuring the point, saying, well, try different settings. The situations I have described with TCR, dev, and recal in combination, which was the default setting for a decade, show that the performance is not acceptable. Acceptable is plausible alternative ratings.

[Rain King]

Originally Posted by Brad K

Its an indication that the devs turned the section over to a volunteer who set it up the way he liked instead of how the data OOTP collects shows people play.

But again you're obscuring the point, saying, well, try different settings. The situations I have described with TCR, dev, and recal in combination, which was the default setting for a decade, show that the performance is not acceptable. Acceptable is plausible alternative ratings.

OOTP25 has created 4 different default options spread across the most likely approaches to historical play.

I have no idea what you are talking about regarding some mysterious volunteer or why you believe this is a bad thing.

I also have no idea what the combination of words in your last sentence mean.

[Brad K]

Lol

[Lordofbrewtown]

Reading through this thread, the real question seems to be is TCR broken in the latest patch (or OOTP25 in general), or is it working as designed.

Has anyone from OOTP answered or confirmed that question?

My impression from some examples is that something is causing TCR to be too volatile in the latest versions (is broken). For certain leagues (including one of mine - fictional) that would be a big deal, something I'd want a hot fix for asap

[Rain King]

Originally Posted by Lordofbrewtown

Reading through this thread, the real question seems to be is TCR broken in the latest patch (or OOTP25 in general), or is it working as designed.

Has anyone from OOTP answered or confirmed that question?

My impression from some examples is that something is causing TCR to be too volatile in the latest versions (is broken). For certain leagues (including one of mine - fictional) that would be a big deal, something I'd want a hot fix for asap

I've seen a few recent complaints about TCR, but not any that showed any substance nor details such as what their TCR was set at (I know it was a trend to set it really high for various reasons previously).

That said, it appears the change to TCR was significant so there could certainly be legit problems but I've just not seen real evidence to that.

This thread, though, seems to have been created with Historical specifically in mind and not related to the recent patch.

Obviously the last patch adjusted TCR so I think it is fairly likely that potentially caused some problems for those that had extreme settings, but I just haven't seen much in the way of detailed results.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Brad K

Actually "to me" is a big issue here. The cheerleaders dismiss observations of actual malfunctions from the standpoint they don't play that way and if the user doesn't like it turn the feature off.

Agreed it is a big issue because without it it comes across as the game is broke for everyone(?), when clearly it isn't since many commented that the feature works for them. Why does turning it off bother you? You are the one that said "we don't need it".

[OutS|der]

Originally Posted by Lordofbrewtown

Reading through this thread, the real question seems to be is TCR broken in the latest patch (or OOTP25 in general), or is it working as designed.

Has anyone from OOTP answered or confirmed that question?

My impression from some examples is that something is causing TCR to be too volatile in the latest versions (is broken). For certain leagues (including one of mine - fictional) that would be a big deal, something I'd want a hot fix for asap

How is it broken? I'm not sure how this thread lead to TCR being broken.

TCR is needed for the fictional part of the game. Without it potential generally doesn't change.

As with most arguments on here historical play has clouded things. TCR would be something I'd have off for historical play, as I'd want the randomness of the game engine to dictate results over the ratings.

[Reed]

This thread is pointless.
Markus in one of the YouTube videos a few years ago talking about a new release said something about learning the hard way not to remove a feature unless absolutely necessary because of the blowback the one time he did.

[Matt Arnold]

TCR will be toned down a little in the next patch, it was a little too aggressive in the last update.

Certainly in the historical game, there's a debate even when using the dev engine whether it should be on or not. Especially when also running with recalc, where player potentials can be recalculated, that is like a mini-TCR each year to adjust players to their actual ratings.

But for general historical games, none of the default modes (other than random debut) include both development and recalc. The defaults are either to use recalc-only, or to use the dev engine only. Using both together is not always desired by people who play historical games, that's why it's not the default setup.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

TCR will be toned down a little in the next patch, it was a little too aggressive in the last update.

Certainly in the historical game, there's a debate even when using the dev engine whether it should be on or not. Especially when also running with recalc, where player potentials can be recalculated, that is like a mini-TCR each year to adjust players to their actual ratings.

But for general historical games, none of the default modes (other than random debut) include both development and recalc. The defaults are either to use recalc-only, or to use the dev engine only. Using both together is not always desired by people who play historical games, that's why it's not the default setup.

So it was removed as the default to satisfy the minority.

[kq76]

Originally Posted by Reed

This thread is pointless.
Markus in one of the YouTube videos a few years ago talking about a new release said something about learning the hard way not to remove a feature unless absolutely necessary because of the blowback the one time he did.

I can't help but wonder, what was that feature? Do you know? The only one that comes to my mind was Markus's version of the dev lab and that's why I was so happy the team brought it back, and far better than it was originally. The original may have had its flaws, sure, but you felt like you actually had some way to influence how your players developed. Yeah, you could kind of influence their development in some other ways too, but it was direct impact.

[Rain King]

Originally Posted by Brad K

So it was removed as the default to satisfy the minority.

No. He literally said the opposite of this.

[Reed]

Originally Posted by kq76

I can't help but wonder, what was that feature? Do you know? The only one that comes to my mind was Markus's version of the dev lab and that's why I was so happy the team brought it back, and far better than it was originally. The original may have had its flaws, sure, but you felt like you actually had some way to influence how your players developed. Yeah, you could kind of influence their development in some other ways too, but it was direct impact.

I don’t know what he removed. I think it was before I started playing OOTP 13.