Is When We Warm-up Relievers and Bring Them In Realistic?

[Pelican]

I like the reliever warmup option, and I don’t find it intrusive. It’s another dose of reality - how hard it is to manage. I’m thankful for the “sit when ready”, and agree with Sweed that it’s merely the bullpen coach decision, and not some kind of hack.

Here’s a question: does having a guy warm up several times in a game, without pitching, have any effect on fatigue? I have not seen any evidence of this. It should.

One thing I’ve noticed is that a guy can be ready, then not used, and start out cold an inning later in the pen. As IRL. You need to start over.

As others said, I watch my starter’s pitch count, control, and particularly watch out for any hard-hit balls as a red flag. Of course, the universal DH has eliminated the need to plan for pinch-hitters and double-switches.

I have disabled the ridiculous minimum three batter rule, so my pen tends to be more active. I’ll go lefty/righty/lefty late in games. Only two mounds in the bullpen, both OOTP and MLB.

I do see some variance in how long it takes guys to get loose. I wonder if the AI recognizes that I am buying time with a mound visit. And if the warming reliever can throw more pitches during a long at bat in the game.

Did not know that the AI does not warm up relievers. I have thought it would be helpful to know who was warming in the opposition pen. Obviously I could see this IRL.

[kq76]

Originally Posted by Pelican

Here’s a question: does having a guy warm up several times in a game, without pitching, have any effect on fatigue? I have not seen any evidence of this. It should.

Good question. I just tested it. I warmed up my best non-closer reliever in 4 successive innings. I thought that after maybe the 3rd time it would pop up a notice saying I couldn't do it or his effectiveness would be compromised, but no, nothing appeared. Interestingly, he warmed up pretty fast the 2nd time and really fast the 3rd time, but then really slowly the 4th time. And more curiously, when he finally did come in, after the 4th time, he pitched probably the worst he has all season. His fatigue bar (bottom of pitcher widget) definitely started at the far right and I thought if anything that might start somewhere else. Previous to this, I'm pretty sure I've never tried warming up a reliever more than 3 times and very rarely 3 times.

So while the game will allow you to warm them up numerous times, maybe it does take a toll on their effectiveness, but it doesn't tell you that flat out. I've definitely seen baseball people say you shouldn't warm up the same reliever more than twice.

[kq76]

I thought it was interesting that Dan Plesac also noted a difference between getting loose and getting hot.

Maybe OOTP would want to try to emulate that by allowing us to tell a guy to only get loose vs get hot. And getting loose wouldn't impact their fatigue or their ability to warm up another time while getting hot would.

I could see it working very similarly to how it works now. You tell a guy to get loose (maybe the previous half inning just like now) and he warms up to the point where he's at the "warming up" stage (past the "cold" stage), but then he sits down (on his own). He stays at this "loose" stage for a little while and if you decide you do need him (say your current pitcher gives up a hard hit or a walk), you tell your bullpen coach to get that loosened up reliever "hot". He then takes only a PA or 2 to get to the "ready" or "hot" stage at which point you can now safely bring him in. That would allow you to warm up a reliever in a much more reliable amount of time. As it is now it could take twice as long to warm up a reliever from cold to ready. Or, if you didn't foresee that you might need someone well enough ahead of time, instead of telling him to loosen up, you could tell him to get hot (like now) and that would skip the auto sit down part, but it would take longer (like now). I like this!

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by kq76

I thought it was interesting that Dan Plesac also noted a difference between getting loose and getting hot.

Maybe OOTP would want to try to emulate that by allowing us to tell a guy to only get loose vs get hot. And getting loose wouldn't impact their fatigue or their ability to warm up another time while getting hot would.

I could see it working very similarly to how it works now. You tell a guy to get loose (maybe the previous half inning just like now) and he warms up to the point where he's at the "warming up" stage (past the "cold" stage), but then he sits down (on his own). He stays at this "loose" stage for a little while and if you decide you do need him (say your current pitcher gives up a hard hit or a walk), you tell your bullpen coach to get that loosened up reliever "hot". He then takes only a PA or 2 to get to the "ready" or "hot" stage at which point you can now safely bring him in. That would allow you to warm up a reliever in a much more reliable amount of time. As it is now it could take twice as long to warm up a reliever from cold to ready. Or, if you didn't foresee that you might need someone well enough ahead of time, instead of telling him to loosen up, you could tell him to get hot (like now) and that would skip the auto sit down part, but it would take longer (like now). I like this!

I understand why you\some would want this. An attempt at more immersion\reality. Too me it just adds steps and micromanagement that I think is mostly already covered by both the RP and bullpen coach albeit in an abstract"easy"(?) way.

I'd prefer they teach\code the AI to use the current system rather than expand the human system. Also, if and when they get the AI to warm I would hope it would be an option based solely on that. IE we would have individual on\off toggles for both human and AI warmups.

I'd have no problem if they implemented a more complex human warmup model, whatever that ended up being. I would also hope they would leave in the current model as a choice. IDK maybe a new model would knock me out with how well it worked but again, maybe it would not.

[Pelican]

Agree with the need for toggles and thus choice to use or not use new options. That’s consistent with the total flexibility of the game on details. Heck, you can sim a whole season, or months or weeks; manage a team by setting weekly lineups; manage a team every game; PBP or one pitch mode; so it would make sense for any further refinements like loose/warm to be optional. I for one have used all of the above in various sims, depending on my time and patience.

[kq76]

Originally Posted by Sweed

I understand why you\some would want this. An attempt at more immersion\reality. Too me it just adds steps and micromanagement that I think is mostly already covered by both the RP and bullpen coach albeit in an abstract"easy"(?) way.

You make it sound like what I proposed is harder or more complicated. I really don't think it is. You want him to get ready as soon as possible, you tell him to get hot, like now. You want him to just get loose because you're not sure if you'll want him, you tell him to get loose. And then if you do decide you want him in, then you tell him that. It's one extra button press, yes, but it allows you to much more accurately time how long it'll take him to get ready. And an added benefit is it would allow us to fatigue a warmed up guy, while not a loosened guy, which is another issue with the current system.

I agree with those who would like the AI to have to use it too (I'm a bit surprised it doesn't as it seems like it sims seemingly far more complicated issues okay), but the AI using it or not doesn't at all fix the issues us humans have with it. I kind of understand those who might not want to play with it at all if the AI isn't forced to use it too (in other games I prefer playing on the same footing as the AI as otherwise it feels like the AI is cheating), but if the AI was forced to use it then those same people might still balk at using it because it's too frustrating that it takes so long to warm up a reliever, or it's too frustrating that relievers apparently don't tire from warming up, or some other thing. There could always be something that stops those people from wanting to use an option while those of us who are already using it and looking for more of a challenge or want something more realistic will at least definitely benefit from an improvement.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by kq76

You make it sound like what I proposed is harder or more complicated. I really don't think it is. You want him to get ready as soon as possible, you tell him to get hot, like now. You want him to just get loose because you're not sure if you'll want him, you tell him to get loose. And then if you do decide you want him in, then you tell him that. It's one extra button press, yes, but it allows you to much more accurately time how long it'll take him to get ready. And an added benefit is it would allow us to fatigue a warmed up guy, while not a loosened guy, which is another issue with the current system.

I agree with those who would like the AI to have to use it too (I'm a bit surprised it doesn't as it seems like it sims seemingly far more complicated issues okay), but the AI using it or not doesn't at all fix the issues us humans have with it. I kind of understand those who might not want to play with it at all if the AI isn't forced to use it too (in other games I prefer playing on the same footing as the AI as otherwise it feels like the AI is cheating), but if the AI was forced to use it then those same people might still balk at using it because it's too frustrating that it takes so long to warm up a reliever, or it's too frustrating that relievers apparently don't tire from warming up, or some other thing. There could always be something that stops those people from wanting to use an option while those of us who are already using it and looking for more of a challenge or want something more realistic will at least definitely benefit from an improvement.

The way I play now is I imagine I tell my pitching coach to call down to the pen(it's his job ), have my imaginary bullpen coach get up my RP. I then rely on my imaginary bullpen coach and the RP himself to monitor how he is throwing and deciding on when\if to ease up. I play out every game and I cannot recall the last time I didn't have a RP ready when I needed him. I don't need a 2 layer system to play "my way", or to accomplish having a RP ready when needed, when the one I have already works.

I'm not saying I hope Markus doesn't listen to you. I'm not PMing Markus and and asking him to leave things as is. If you can talk Markus and Matt into making a change more power to you, cool by me. At the same time since the current model works I see no reason to remove it if another is added. I know you didn't ask the old way be removed but it could happen as an unintended consequence. At the end of the day the choices can be done with a menu with three options instead of two.

Human use warmup rule?
No
Classic
New and improved (or whatever name they come up with)

It works well for choosing "Classic or Modern 3d" to play out games. No reason it couldn't work for warming up RP's.

With regard to the AI? I am not confident in a model being coded that will actually work. So many variables and so many things that can go wrong. I don't want to be playing the AI in the WS and win because it totally screwed up RP warmups.

We hear "but The Show does it" along with many other games. My experience with "The Show"? You see Jones and Smith warming up in the cpu pen. Next thing you know the AI is bringing in a RP but... it's Johnson, huh? Yeah, watch closely and you'll see the AI having to cheat to get the right matchup. I only call it cheating because it is coded in the game but, push come to shove, not being adhered to.

I have no problem giving the AI the advantage to use who it needs to when it needs to. I fully respect that others opinions on this are different then mine. But that lack of confidence is why, if they do add AI warmups, I'd want an individual Y\N toggle for the AI so I could turn it off and still leave human warmups on.

At the end of the day I'll play whatever game they code.