Holyfield gets another title shot! - Page 2

a87star · 08-02-2007, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by meade95

With that said, I'll give old Commander Vander a shot within the first 6 rounds , if Ibragimov gets brave and wants to stand and slug......You know Old Evander is more than willing to fall on his shield fighting....if it means he has a chance to land his shots too.....

I doubt Ibragimov is going to sit there and trade with Holyfield. He's going to throw combinations and counterpunch ol' Vander all night. Personally, Oliver McCall deserved this title shot more because in the last year he has beaten at least one quality opponent. People might get annoyed by this statement but that's my opinion.

meade95 · 08-02-2007, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a87star

I doubt Ibragimov is going to sit there and trade with Holyfield. He's going to throw combinations and counterpunch ol' Vander all night. Personally, Oliver McCall deserved this title shot more because in the last year he has beaten at least one quality opponent. People might get annoyed by this statement but that's my opinion.

You are likely right regarding Ibragimov - If he stays outside, counters and keeps his punch count up.....He'll win by UD or late corner stoppage (IMO).

But for those first 6 rounds....Holy probably has several decent combinations left in him......If Ibragimov gets brave at any time during those first 6 rounds.....I'll be happy guy!

Reality is Holyfield is a shell of his former self.....and that includes his chin. Lou Saverese hurt Holy with an uppercut in the 3rd round of their fight.....That a younger Holyfield would have laughed off , he woudl have walked right through it and not missed a beat, returning his own 3 punch combo on Saverese ........But he was stunned by Lou's uppercut.....

That doesn't bode well for him - He can still take a good shot better shot than most......but at his age....his chin is on the decline as well.....

maxx · 08-02-2007, 06:28 PM

If thebadguy & tysonfan weren't the same person (which I, too, suspect they were), at the very least they were separated at birth.

Anyway, there have been plenty of guys less deserving or who have paid less dues than Holyfield who have received title shots, but that doesn't make it right when crap like this happens.

That said, my biggest problem with this fight being made is the additional long term damage to Holyfield's brain. Now, I'm no doctor, but I've watched too many boxers develop neurological problems over the years (Ali, the Quarrys, Bobby Chacon, Meldrick Taylor, Freddie Roach, Iran Barkley, etc., etc.) not to see the obvious signs in Holyfield. Given his style and his toughness, you know Evander will keep absorbing lots of head shots as long as he continues to fight.

Normally, I probably would not watch the fight but be pulling for the old guy to win. However, in this case, you know if he wins he'll just keep trying to unify the title. Ordinarily that would be a positive thing . . . but not in this case.

So, when this fight takes place, I won't be watching but I will be hoping Holyfield loses by DQ or a cut with the first punch thrown and then hangs them up for good.

a87star · 08-02-2007, 06:38 PM

I give Holyfield a chance too in the first half of the fight but the question is how many combinations will get through to do significant damage to Ibragimov? I'm not saying it is unlikely but Sultan has way better defense than say a Maddalone or Savarese and with his speed and ability to move away from a righthanders punch and make Holyfield miss looms very large in this fight.

If Ibragimov is able to avoid punches and make Holyfield expend energy early, he will be able to get a late stoppage because as you mentioned meade, his chin is not what it was in his prime. Best chance for Vander is to hope Sultan starts trading bombs with him and get a stoppage within the first part of the fight. If the fight goes rounds, it moves into Ibragimov's favor.

mh2365 · 08-02-2007, 11:49 PM

For some odd reason I just see Holyfield winning this fight and boxing taking a huge step backwards.

We had great momentum going with the fights this fall. Since Holyfield is involved in this one it will take away from every other fight. Where were the news updates on ESPN when the Taylor-Pavlik fight was made? Where wer the cut-in's for Kessler-Calzaghe? Where are the cut-ins for Cotto-Mosley?

It is too bad this fight is garnering attention

Syd Thrift · 08-03-2007, 01:08 AM

I don't think Ibramigov is that good but I still can't see Holyfield do much more than forget how to walk after the fight is over. Seriously... who was the boxing commission that decided that Holyfield was ready to fight Butterbean let alone this guy?

I hope Holyfield doesn't somehow pull this out, not just because of the horrible effect this would have on the game but also because that would convince The Real Deal to lace them up in another matchup against a guy who could knock the few remaining brain cells out of his ears. I've always thought that even in his prime he was damn lucky to not get badly, badly hurt the way he fights.

BigFiasco · 08-03-2007, 01:23 AM

Holyfield wins this, and inspires even more dusties to come out of retirement. (Sigh)

I think Id rather see fat and stoned Lennox Lewis come back at this point. This division sucks.

Romultiltus · 08-03-2007, 01:39 AM

After Holyfield head-butts his way to victory, the stage will be set for the fight that will put an end to heavyweight boxing forever...

Holyfield vs. Bowe IV

mh2365 · 08-03-2007, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigFiasco

Holyfield wins this, and inspires even more dusties to come out of retirement. (Sigh)

I think Id rather see fat and stoned Lennox Lewis come back at this point. This division sucks.

That's the problem with Holyfield getting a title shot ... the perception that the division sucks. It doesn't. If Holyfield had fought anyone with a pulse in his comeback he would have been beaten and no one would be talking about him.

I hope Sultan embarrasses him.

Thunder · 08-03-2007, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mh2365

If a completely shot fighter like Holyfield wins the title, they might as well fold the HW division.

I know what you mean, but this isn't the "real" heavyweight championship.

The rest isn't directed at you, but I had nowhere else to go with it! (edit: having actually read most of the thread now, I see you'll probably agree!)

By my count, there are 23 active (more or less) fighters who have been a "World champion"

Akinwande, Botha, Brewster, Briggs, Byrd, Chagaev, Hide, Holyfield, Ibragimov, Jones, Klitschko(x2), Liakovich, Maskaev, McCall, Moorer, Morrison, Rahman, Ruiz, Sanders, Seldon, Toney, Valuev

I think a lot of people when they make comparisons about today’s fighters vs. "The Old Days" look at some of these guys and say that scrub was a heavyweight champion?? He’d have never done squat if he came along a little earlier.

But really, if there was one governing body today and the rankings were halfway decent, this list of guys would have one champion and 22 contenders, and not necessarily Nos. 1-22 . . probably some guys would be much deeper, maybe even to No. 30 or 35, but at some point most would have been in the Top 20 in the past decade.

Flashback to the 1970s, generally regarded as a good heavyweight era.

Duane Bobick
Jack Bodell
Oscar Bonavena
Johnny Boudreaux
Joe Bugner
George Chuvalo
Henry Clark
Henry Cooper
Gerry Cooney
Domino D’Elia
Alfredo Evangelista
Mac Foster
Jose Luis Garcia
Leroy Jones
Kallie Knoetzee
Scott LeDoux
Ron Lyle
Larry Middleton
Randy Neumann
Ozzie Ocasio
Jerry Quarry
Jose Roman
Ernie Shavers
Howard Smith
Ernie Terrell
Jose Ibar Urtain
Stan Ward
Chuck Wepner
Jimmy Young
Lorenzo Zanon

What do these guys have in common? They were all in Ring Magazine's year-end top 10 from 1970-79. If today's list of champs goes 20-deep then its reasonable to presume in a four or six-belt world, it would have 30 years ago and most of that list would have been heavyweight "champs". And while there may not be an Ali-Foreman-Frazier-Holmes out there right now, if Jose Roman and Howard Smith once upon a time held the WBO belt, I'm not sure today's dudes would be bashed quite so much.

BigFiasco · 08-03-2007, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mh2365

That's the problem with Holyfield getting a title shot ... the perception that the division sucks. It doesn't. If Holyfield had fought anyone with a pulse in his comeback he would have been beaten and no one would be talking about him.

I hope Sultan embarrasses him.

yea that was pretty much my point. As long as this division has 4 champions, its a joke, and sucks.

CONN CHRIS · 08-03-2007, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunder

Scott LeDoux

Saw him referee a wrastlin' match at the local high school a long time ago; that's gotta count for something.

meade95 · 08-03-2007, 01:29 PM

The notion that Holyfield winning this fight....is bad for boxing is just flat out wrong - Most PR is good PR and that goes for boxing -

If Holyfield puts on a good performance and scores a solid win......it is a hell of a story and boxing gets tremendous positive PR - (trying to say that would be bad, is just foolishness).

Furthermore the HW's today are down - Some can say that isn't so all they want......But I just don't agree. The HW division is down - I've already listed the conteners and fringe contenders of the recent 90's on another thread......and they are certainly a class above todays IMO -

I mean come on - People at like Sam Peter is the biggest (real) threat to Wald....and Peter's biggest win of note....is over a fat, old, truly 'blown up with food" SMW....James Toney.... (and I'm a big james toney fan!).

As I said above......Holyfield is clearly a shell of his former self, we all know that.......He is clealry the underdog going into this fight, not only physically but he is fighting in Moscow to boot......BUT if he pulls this fight out.....it is a big story and tremendous positive PR for the sport of boxing.

Thunder · 08-03-2007, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CONN CHRIS

Saw him referee a wrastlin' match at the local high school a long time ago; that's gotta count for something.

Absolutely!!

I wonder what it would be like if the history of boxing governance had happened in reverse. . . that is to say, becuase of travel restrictions or politics if there were 4-6 belts "back in the day" and one now.

My guess is there is a John Ruiz fan who would say: He never gets the credit he deserves, because he didn't win the title. But if he fought 40 years ago, he'd have been a champion and now be looked at more favorably. (Ditto for Scott LeDoux, Herbie Hide, Oscar Bonavena, etc.)

CONN CHRIS · 08-03-2007, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunder

Absolutely!!

I wonder what it would be like if the history of boxing governance had happened in reverse. . . that is to say, becuase of travel restrictions or politics if there were 4-6 belts "back in the day" and one now.

My guess is there is a John Ruiz fan who would say: He never gets the credit he deserves, because he didn't win the title. But if he fought 40 years ago, he'd have been a champion and now be looked at more favorably. (Ditto for Scott LeDoux, Herbie Hide, Oscar Bonavena, etc.)

Good point. And how about that Scott LeDoux!

mh2365 · 08-03-2007, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigFiasco

yea that was pretty much my point. As long as this division has 4 champions, its a joke, and sucks.

Then you can say that about every division. But since we no longer live in the 80's 4 world champions is what we have to deal with.

Thunder · 08-03-2007, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CONN CHRIS

Good point. And how about that Scott LeDoux!

Scott LeDoux W12 Marty Monroe
(for vacant IBF heavyweight championship)

mh2365 · 08-03-2007, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by meade95

The notion that Holyfield winning this fight....is bad for boxing is just flat out wrong - Most PR is good PR and that goes for boxing -

If Holyfield puts on a good performance and scores a solid win......it is a hell of a story and boxing gets tremendous positive PR - (trying to say that would be bad, is just foolishness).

Furthermore the HW's today are down - Some can say that isn't so all tehy want......But I just don't agree. The HW division is down - I've already listed the conteners and fringe contenders of the recent 90's on another thread......and they are certainly a class above todays IMO -

I mean come on - People at like Sam Peter is the biggest (real) threat to Wald....and Peter's biggest win of note....is over a fat, old, truly 'blown up with food" SMW....James Toney.... (and I'm a big james toney fan!).

As I said above......Holyfield is clearly a shell of his former self, we all know that.......He is clealry the underdog going into this fight, not only physically but he is fighting in Moscow to boot......BUT if he pulls this fight out.....it is a big story and tremendous positive PR for the sport of boxing.

The notion that bad PR is good PR is outdated. If he wins this fight the PR will be HW's suck so much that brain dead Holyfield can win the title. How can that be spun as good for boxing?

It's also not good PR because now that is all anyone in the press will talk about, they won't even bother mentioning Kessler vs. Calzaghe or Taylor vs. Pavlik or Mosley vs. Cotto.

So once again real fighters in real fights will get pushed to the back for a dog and pony show.

meade95 · 08-03-2007, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mh2365

Then you can say that about every division. But since we no longer live in the 80's 4 world champions is what we have to deal with.

Agreed - Reality is I personally don't mind the 3 world champions (now 4) per division - It creates debate, allows for big unification fights, etc.

With that said, I don't particularly understand how (make that more why) the WBO jumped up to be on par with the other "Big three" (WBC, IBF, WBA).

mh2365 · 08-03-2007, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by meade95

Agreed - Reality is I personally don't mind the 3 world champions (now 4) per division - It creates debate, allows for big unification fights, etc.

With that said, I don't particularly understand how (make that more why) the WBO jumped up to be on par with the other "Big three" (WBC, IBF, WBA).

That confused the heck out of me too. Was it when Wlad won the WBO title back in 2000 that it kind of went mainstream?

08-03-2007, 01:39 AM	#28
Romultiltus Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: East Haven, CT Posts: 19,016	After Holyfield head-butts his way to victory, the stage will be set for the fight that will put an end to heavyweight boxing forever... Holyfield vs. Bowe IV __________________ Season 4 Rosters Link Page Waiver/Free Agent Page UTBA-II Season 4 Standings Season 4 Schedule Season 3 Rosters Link Page

08-03-2007, 01:29 PM	#33
meade95 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 2,095	The notion that Holyfield winning this fight....is bad for boxing is just flat out wrong - Most PR is good PR and that goes for boxing - If Holyfield puts on a good performance and scores a solid win......it is a hell of a story and boxing gets tremendous positive PR - (trying to say that would be bad, is just foolishness). Furthermore the HW's today are down - Some can say that isn't so all they want......But I just don't agree. The HW division is down - I've already listed the conteners and fringe contenders of the recent 90's on another thread......and they are certainly a class above todays IMO - I mean come on - People at like Sam Peter is the biggest (real) threat to Wald....and Peter's biggest win of note....is over a fat, old, truly 'blown up with food" SMW....James Toney.... (and I'm a big james toney fan!). As I said above......Holyfield is clearly a shell of his former self, we all know that.......He is clealry the underdog going into this fight, not only physically but he is fighting in Moscow to boot......BUT if he pulls this fight out.....it is a big story and tremendous positive PR for the sport of boxing. Last edited by meade95; 08-03-2007 at 02:45 PM.

08-02-2007, 06:28 PM	#23
maxx All Star Reserve Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 716	If thebadguy & tysonfan weren't the same person (which I, too, suspect they were), at the very least they were separated at birth. Anyway, there have been plenty of guys less deserving or who have paid less dues than Holyfield who have received title shots, but that doesn't make it right when crap like this happens. That said, my biggest problem with this fight being made is the additional long term damage to Holyfield's brain. Now, I'm no doctor, but I've watched too many boxers develop neurological problems over the years (Ali, the Quarrys, Bobby Chacon, Meldrick Taylor, Freddie Roach, Iran Barkley, etc., etc.) not to see the obvious signs in Holyfield. Given his style and his toughness, you know Evander will keep absorbing lots of head shots as long as he continues to fight. Normally, I probably would not watch the fight but be pulling for the old guy to win. However, in this case, you know if he wins he'll just keep trying to unify the title. Ordinarily that would be a positive thing . . . but not in this case. So, when this fight takes place, I won't be watching but I will be hoping Holyfield loses by DQ or a cut with the first punch thrown and then hangs them up for good.

08-02-2007, 06:38 PM	#24
a87star Hall Of Famer Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Staten Island, NY Posts: 4,850	I give Holyfield a chance too in the first half of the fight but the question is how many combinations will get through to do significant damage to Ibragimov? I'm not saying it is unlikely but Sultan has way better defense than say a Maddalone or Savarese and with his speed and ability to move away from a righthanders punch and make Holyfield miss looms very large in this fight. If Ibragimov is able to avoid punches and make Holyfield expend energy early, he will be able to get a late stoppage because as you mentioned meade, his chin is not what it was in his prime. Best chance for Vander is to hope Sultan starts trading bombs with him and get a stoppage within the first part of the fight. If the fight goes rounds, it moves into Ibragimov's favor.

08-02-2007, 11:49 PM	#25
mh2365 Banned Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: louisville Posts: 14,941 Infractions: 0/2 (101)	For some odd reason I just see Holyfield winning this fight and boxing taking a huge step backwards. We had great momentum going with the fights this fall. Since Holyfield is involved in this one it will take away from every other fight. Where were the news updates on ESPN when the Taylor-Pavlik fight was made? Where wer the cut-in's for Kessler-Calzaghe? Where are the cut-ins for Cotto-Mosley? It is too bad this fight is garnering attention

08-03-2007, 01:23 AM	#27
BigFiasco Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 213	Holyfield wins this, and inspires even more dusties to come out of retirement. (Sigh) I think Id rather see fat and stoned Lennox Lewis come back at this point. This division sucks.