Why are teams and players still missing for 1884?

[BaseballMan]

Hers the standings from my simulated 1872 season.
sim standings vs real standings and difference.
Of course it was a far shorter season but still the team wins
are pretty close.


Boston Red Stockings 33 15 39 8 -6
Baltimore Canaries 38 20 35 19 -3
Philadelphia Athletics 28 19 30 14 -2
Troy Haymakers 14 11 15 10 -1
New York Mutuals 29 27 34 20 -5
Washington Olympics 4 5 2 7 -2
Middletown Mansfields 10 14 5 19 +5
Brooklyn Eckfords 9 20 3 26 +6
Cleveland Forest Citys 6 16 6 16 Even
Washington Nationals 3 8 0 11 +3
Brooklyn Atlantics 9 28 9 28 Even

[BaseballMan]

Historical transactions are working great.
Haven't ran into any not enough players issues.
I'm using the actual starting pitchers and have not ran into a game
where the pitcher wasn't on the team.
Folding teams are releasing players after their last game.
Which is the way it should work.
The team history is a little bit off for the first year due to the fictional history
but once i got to 1872 opening day evertyhing seems to be fine.
I did have to fire and rehire all managers after 1871 due to the expansion teams hiring managers before i could when i switched to the 23 database.
I'm using 23 till 1900 unless the real team history gets added back in 25.
However the stats are pretty good so far.
Havent seen any 23 error games with the first baseman missing 5 catches in a row.
Do see catchers just standing when they can throw the runner out.
But that seems more an animation not matching the play.
I do see a lot of wild pitches but that doesn't seem far fetch.
As long as the errors and wild pitches are not like 10 in a row i'm ok with it.

But now the elephant in the room.
Why are players still running like they are trying to keep it all in before they get to the bathroom?

[AESP_pres]

The thing I usually do to make my simulations even more realist but it's a little bit over the top is to manually put the players on the rooster the day they began their career and fire them after their last real life game because those information aren't in the database for the 19th century (TBH it's the case for the modern days too but less)... I just find it annoying when a pitcher is on a team a complete season getting games as a reliever when in reality he only came to start a game or two before vanishing from the history book.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by AESP_pres

The thing I usually do to make my simulations even more realist but it's a little bit over the top is to manually put the players on the rooster the day they began their career and fire them after their last real life game because those information aren't in the database for the 19th century (TBH it's the case for the modern days too but less)... I just find it annoying when a pitcher is on a team a complete season getting games as a reliever when in reality he only came to start a game or two before vanishing from the history book.

I hear you. The flip side to this is that a player may have only gotten into a handful of Sept-callup games in real life. But in OOTP maybe due to injuries he was needed more...

In fact, that's one reason - and I'm getting a little off track here because I'm talking about post-1900 - I like to play with minors. IRL a team might've been locked in a tight pennant race and didn't even call up its top shortstop prospect (or veteran who is really only there for insurance). But in OOTP without minors, if your veteran SS gets injured your only options are going to be other guys who appeared on the big club that year - and depending upon circumstances, those options could be pretty thin - when in reality the major league team would've called up the guy from AAA...

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

1884 is still missing teams from 1884.
Richmond Virginias is missing.
Their rookies show up as rookies in 1885 with no stats for 1884.

OOTP could handle contraction.
When teams fold their players get released.
The problem is they can't go to their new teams unless their transactions were added to the historical transactions.

I think there may be a few of us that could share the transaction files we've made.
Sure there will be some estimates where there's no data but having the correct players on the correct teams is the important part.

If the teams are correct then the rookies should import to their teams
and be released when teams fold.

You can use real schedules and disable playoffs, or have 1st vs 2nd place in single league years. Or you could adjust playoffs and league setup to what you prefer but you would have the real team rosters and expansion if you chose to follow the historical path.

I cant speak for others but having the correct teams so rookies could go to correct teams would be a great help instead of having to use a work around.
Then a historical transaction file could be made. After that other adjustments could be made.

If the real teams were able to play all their games then shouldn't it be the same for ootp? Unless you have injuries set at max but that would be the same for the setup we have now.
If you can have fictional expansion with a fantasy draft and fictional trades,
why not just use the real teams?

The Virginians are a really specific issue, as they essentially started the season as the Washington Nationals, who went 12-51 before folding in early August. The Richmond "team" then took over a few of the players and played out the Nationals' remaining schedule. I remember playing through that on a fictional basis and it is... hard with the schedules as written, which do treat both teams as separate teams even though they never overlapped in scheduling. I think there's one other team that relocated midseason in the 19th century (the Indianapolis Hoosiers?) and, frankly, it's not going to be so easy for OOTP to do.

[BaseballMan]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

The Virginians are a really specific issue, as they essentially started the season as the Washington Nationals, who went 12-51 before folding in early August. The Richmond "team" then took over a few of the players and played out the Nationals' remaining schedule. I remember playing through that on a fictional basis and it is... hard with the schedules as written, which do treat both teams as separate teams even though they never overlapped in scheduling. I think there's one other team that relocated midseason in the 19th century (the Indianapolis Hoosiers?) and, frankly, it's not going to be so easy for OOTP to do.

Just use as played schedules for pre 1900.
Import all teams.
You shouldn't have to worry about Richmond's roster till their schedule starts.
All the teams should have correct players when they play their scheduled games.
Playing full schedules just leads to unrealistic results for 19th century.
A guy hitting 20 Homer's in 1871?

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

Just use as played schedules for pre 1900.
Import all teams.
You shouldn't have to worry about Richmond's roster till their schedule starts.
All the teams should have correct players when they play their scheduled games.
Playing full schedules just leads to unrealistic results for 19th century.
A guy hitting 20 Homer's in 1871?

You don’t but OOTP flat out doesn’t know how to deal with a team that drops after X games and has its schedule picked up by someone later. A lot of those players on Richmond were on Washington and I guess you could push them over with transactions but the game will still consider Washington a team. I know there are workarounds. If I’m being honest… the 19th century probably isn’t a place the game is going to want to spend a lot of time fixing…

[BaseballMan]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

You don’t but OOTP flat out doesn’t know how to deal with a team that drops after X games and has its schedule picked up by someone later. A lot of those players on Richmond were on Washington and I guess you could push them over with transactions but the game will still consider Washington a team. I know there are workarounds. If I’m being honest… the 19th century probably isn’t a place the game is going to want to spend a lot of time fixing…

Its not really that big of a problem.
We see Richmond as replacing Washington and taking over its schedule.
The game just sees them as two different teams.
That is if you use as played schedules.

Washington played its last game on August 2nd.
So release all Washington players on August 3rd.
Richmond didn't platy its first game till August 5th.
So the historical transactions can have them all signed by August 4th.
Washington folding will not matter as the game will only care about the scheduled games.
Which is why the as played schedules are so important.
A team can fold after 1 game and another team replace them plays 90 games.
Doesn't matter as long as they are not scheduled to play games while the other one still has scheduled games.

At the end of the year the standings will show Washington played its
amount of games and Richmond theirs.
All players will be on the correct teams.

Now if you use the actual schedule then i agree you have a problem because the actual schedule doesn't match what happened.
The stats are from what really happened and not the actual schedule.
So if you use an actual real schedule then im not sure it matters as you are back to more of a fictional side of simming.

[AESP_pres]

Exactly as long as both teams are there to start the season and both teams games are in the schedule this is easy to do everything manually... the second team will have its players to start its schedule (if the transaction database was loaded at the game creation). It's the same thing that will happened in 1890 with Brooklyn and Baltimore.

Just need to be sure that your schedule is 100% as it was played before starting the season and everything is fine... anyway you should always check if the schedule is correct every seasons because an error can mess everything and if you didn't do a backup you will have to start all over again (I learned this the hard way some years ago when I had an error in the 1890 schedule without a backup).

[BaseballMan]

That's why I did three backups.
Offseason or opening day, end of season and end of year.
With historical transactions working I've gone down to 2 saves a year.

[LansdowneSt]

The stat lines from the missing 1884 Union Association, 1890 Players Association, and select other teams (all the ones you gave me, AESP) are now restored. Players from these teams will find their stats as MLB and the game, now being able to see them, will create the players based on those years, as appropriate. This had been an outstanding issue from the database consolidation effort going from OOTP23 to OOTP24 but it is, at last, done. If you see an issue, post in the Historical Database thread under Bugs and I'll tackle it there.

Thanks to all the loyal 19th c. gamers that pushed for this to get addressed. It was a multi-month effort to get through it all.

If the team is not in the game, you'll still need to create the team but at least as you move the players around, they'll play as they should in those years now.