Why are teams and players still missing for 1884?

BaseballMan · 04-02-2024, 01:51 AM

Why can we not have the actual teams for every year before 1900?
What is the point of the fictional historical setup when the game doesnt have historical transactions before 1900 anyway?
Why not let the player set up a fictional league structure?
How hard would it be to delete or move teams if you don't want them where they are?
Why not just use no playoffs for years in which only the NL league existed and have 1st place team playing 2nd place team?

The easy setup really makes unnecessary work for players who prefer historical accuracy.
I'm guessing that most players probably prefer starting in the modern era so whats the point of the fictional setup?
I can understand not spending much time on the early baseball era but at least give us all the players and teams.
If we were given the teams and the actual real expansion and league structure then the rookies would import to the correct teams and the
rest would be our choice of whether to manually do historical transactions or just have fictional transactions.

swampdragon · 04-03-2024, 09:56 PM

Second the motion.

LansdowneSt · 04-07-2024, 01:18 PM

It's because the game can't contract a team once created.

What players are missing in your play through from 1871?

thehef · 04-07-2024, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LansdowneSt

It's because the game can't contract a team once created.

But is this really true? OOTP's minor league module handles both team contractions and leagues folding just fine.

Personally, I think historical pre-1901 majors will happen. I have no inside information on this, but the way minors currently work shows that it's doable, so I'm guessing it's just a matter of time, that the number of 1800's OOTP gamers vs the (presumed) massive effort in the recoding of OOTP's MLB module makes it low priority for the time being... That's just me speculating

LansdowneSt · 04-07-2024, 05:22 PM

Yes, for the MLB, it is true. Each of those 1800 teams is tied to a current MLB team. Not in real life but to make the game work. You can see which team in the team Settings page.

thehef · 04-07-2024, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LansdowneSt

Yes, for the MLB, it is true. Each of those 1800 teams is tied to a current MLB team. Not in real life but to make the game work. You can see which team in the team Settings page.

Well yeah, it's true based upon how OOTP's programming for MLB works. What I meant is that it's not really true that OOTP can't handle contraction. It's not currently programmed to handle it for MLB, but it could handle it just fine - the proof being how it works with OOTP's minors.

I'm guessing there are several dozen minor leagues in OOTP that fold (over the span of 1919 to current times). There's got to be literally hundreds of minor league teams that contract. No significant issues that I'm aware of. OOTP can even track a minor league franchise as it moves from city to city, changes nicknames, even as it goes from league to league, and maybe even shuts down for a year and then restarts. Thanks to yours truly

BaseballMan · 04-08-2024, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LansdowneSt

It's because the game can't contract a team once created.

What players are missing in your play through from 1871?

1884 is still missing teams from 1884.
Richmond Virginias is missing.
Their rookies show up as rookies in 1885 with no stats for 1884.

OOTP could handle contraction.
When teams fold their players get released.
The problem is they can't go to their new teams unless their transactions were added to the historical transactions.

I think there may be a few of us that could share the transaction files we've made.
Sure there will be some estimates where there's no data but having the correct players on the correct teams is the important part.

If the teams are correct then the rookies should import to their teams
and be released when teams fold.

You can use real schedules and disable playoffs, or have 1st vs 2nd place in single league years. Or you could adjust playoffs and league setup to what you prefer but you would have the real team rosters and expansion if you chose to follow the historical path.

I cant speak for others but having the correct teams so rookies could go to correct teams would be a great help instead of having to use a work around.
Then a historical transaction file could be made. After that other adjustments could be made.

If the real teams were able to play all their games then shouldn't it be the same for ootp? Unless you have injuries set at max but that would be the same for the setup we have now.
If you can have fictional expansion with a fantasy draft and fictional trades,
why not just use the real teams?

thehef · 04-08-2024, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

The problem is they can't go to their new teams unless their transactions were added to the historical transactions.

I think there may be a few of us that could share the transaction files we've made.
Sure there will be some estimates where there's no data but having the correct players on the correct teams is the important part.

Then a historical transaction file could be made. After that other adjustments could be made.

If the real teams were able to play all their games then shouldn't it be the same for ootp? Unless you have injuries set at max but that would be the same for the setup we have now.

If you can have fictional expansion with a fantasy draft and fictional trades,
why not just use the real teams?

The historical transactions are most-likely the easiest part of this. After all around 7,000 pre-1901 transactions are already known.

LansdowneSt · 04-08-2024, 10:03 PM

I have the Virginians, Hoosiers of 1884, Kelly’s Killers and two Toledo teams I am fixing in the database as we speak. You’ll still need to manually add those teams but my goal is to get the players in the game on-time and with the correct stat lines. After that I will go through the PL and UA to audit them. One year each… but lots of players. If I can get it fixed up in the next couple weeks, thank AESP_Pres who was kind enough to get me a succinct list of the teams with issues so I could trial and error some fixes before starting on the arduous task of going through it all.

BaseballMan · 04-08-2024, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LansdowneSt

I have the Virginians, Hoosiers of 1884, Kelly’s Killers and two Toledo teams I am fixing in the database as we speak. You’ll still need to manually add those teams but my goal is to get the players in the game on-time and with the correct stat lines. After that I will go through the PL and UA to audit them. One year each… but lots of players. If I can get it fixed up in the next couple weeks, thank AESP_Pres who was kind enough to get me a succinct list of the teams with issues so I could trial and error some fixes before starting on the arduous task of going through it all.

I appreciate the work from all.

Pelican · 04-09-2024, 02:41 PM

1884 is tough because the Union Association was considered a major league, making three total, and with too many franchises, teams moved, folded, and players jumped to new teams.

Or, you have the case of my home town, Wilmington, Delaware, which had a minor league team dominate the [today's AAA equivalent] Eastern League, and then, in August replace a failed team in the Union Association. Their home field, Union Park, is my current neighborhood, built later in 1918 (the field is long-gone; but I live in Union Park Gardens). When the players realized they were not gettin raises, or more pay, for the additional games, many of them jumped ship. Which is sad, as they could have been a competitive team (based on how the players performed for other teams).

Awhile back I started a laborious project of recreating the Union Association teams, based on the available players in the game (guys who played in the so-called major leagues, before, after, or during 1884), and what stats I could find for others. I got as far as the Quicksteps, Wilmington's team. Maybe some day, when I'm fully retired, I will attempt the other teams.

thehef · 04-09-2024, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pelican

Awhile back I started a laborious project of recreating the Union Association teams, based on the available players in the game (guys who played in the so-called major leagues, before, after, or during 1884), and what stats I could find for others. I got as far as the Quicksteps, Wilmington's team. Maybe some day, when I'm fully retired, I will attempt the other teams.

Not suggesting you try that again

, but just in case, it may be worth nothing that up until v24 there was an issue that affected the timing of when players players imported. Long story (and I'll point you towards the discussion in beta; you may have already been aware of it), but I was trying to do some 1930 minor leagues with accurate (by hand) rosters for the PCL & Int'l Lg. It lead me down a path to where not only were a few guys missing who played in those leagues in 1930, but a lot of guys were missing from American Association teams. IOW, teams that were in leagues that were not yet in OOTP (the AA didn't have it's first affiliated-with-an-MLB-franchise team until 1932, so that's when the AA first appears in OOTP); a lot of those guys (who were on AA teams in 1930) were not importing into OOTP until their MLB debut year.

Anyways, that bug has been fixed. And so I would image that in order to have access to guys who played in 1884 UA, you'd need to have minor leagues enabled (minors won't be in OOTP, but enabling them would give you access to those players). And so I'm guessing that if you were try that project now, you'd have more - maybe close to all - of those guys available to you.

BaseballMan · 04-09-2024, 04:30 PM

I think i did use the Union Association and Players League for a simulation in one ootp version. Maybe 16 or 17.
Don't remember for sure.
I was able to play the season but if i recall correctly, the leaderboard couldnt be combined.
Plus none of the other teams really had a shot at the Maroons in the UA.
I would not mind having the leagues but if a league cant play at least 5 years im not too bothered by it.
Deciding whether i should just make that personal rule a 10 year minimum
and start in 1876.
Theres still debate over whether the National Association should be considered a Major League or not.
Not sure i would like having the early greats like George Wright, Ross Barnes and Al Spalding without much chance of making the Hall.

LansdowneSt · 04-09-2024, 04:43 PM

OOTP treats AA, UA and PL as major leagues. The 1884 and other players fell off in OOTP24 during the database upgrade because while their stats are there, their team isn’t and the mismatch blocked them from coming in. In testing work arounds to this dilemma, I think I found a way to get those players back in the game with their historical stat lines getting them to appear when they should and recalc assessing the line properly. Because for 19th c game players, that’s the important thing. … It’s just a slog to do. I’ll post here when it is done. Then, whatever patch comes after the post (as that patch would have an updated database pull), we can see if the fix worked for all those players.

AESP_pres · 04-09-2024, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

The problem is they can't go to their new teams unless their transactions were added to the historical transactions.

As I said before... all the transactions for the 19th century are in the trade database. Only thing different is that you must check the use historical transaction before the end process of creating your league or you will have to wait 1901 to see the option show up in the league option.

Only thing I must do when I play the 19th century as it was is assign the rookies to the teams who aren't created by the game... of course I do my league structure manually the first day of the off season every years so all the trades are done and all the rookies are assign to the correct team (if the team exist in the game for that season).

BaseballMan · 04-09-2024, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AESP_pres

As I said before... all the transactions for the 19th century are in the trade database. Only thing different is that you must check the use historical transaction before the end process of creating your league or you will have to wait 1901 to see the option show up in the league option.

Only thing I must do when I play the 19th century as it was is assign the rookies to the teams who aren't created by the game... of course I do my league structure manually the first day of the off season every years so all the trades are done and all the rookies are assign to the correct team (if the team doesn't exist in the game for that season).

It worked.
Thats a tremendous help.
I was checking those boxes but didnt see any transactions in the historical transaction and the automatic league expansion box being uncheckable had me confused.
Guess i had to sim a season to see the transactions.
I will still have to use the database from ootp23 to get teams to have correct team history.
It will work till hopefully that problem gets corrected.

AESP_pres · 04-09-2024, 11:21 PM

Yeah it's because it load only in 1872 (january first)... one advice that will make your life simple: at the end of the 1871 season (first day of the off season) set all the AI teams to not do any move or they will start signing the release players as free agent, you only need to do this that season because there is no trade database loaded yet in the game. You can uncheck it january first since the teams won't do unwanted transaction anymore.

BaseballMan · 04-11-2024, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AESP_pres

Yeah it's because it load only in 1872 (january first)... one advice that will make your life simple: at the end of the 1871 season (first day of the off season) set all the AI teams to not do any move or they will start signing the release players as free agent, you only need to do this that season because there is no trade database loaded yet in the game. You can uncheck it january first since the teams won't do unwanted transaction anymore.

I set AI to not allow any moves but i was still seeing the players moving
on first day of offseason to the expansion teams.
Then i saw that if you sim to Jan 2nd the players that were signed that didnt play for that team were released and signed to correct teams.
One thing that might help is if the game didn't automatically sign players
the first day of the off season and gave you a chance to assign a manager to a team to prevent these moves.

AESP_pres · 04-11-2024, 07:08 PM

I forgot that you use a file you created yourself to have the good teams each seasons this is why the "expansion" team signed the free agent. I do all that manually so it never happened to me since those teams doesn't exist the first day of the off season (I create the teams and build the new structure that day... except for the team removal that is done january first).

BaseballMan · 04-11-2024, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AESP_pres

I forgot that you use a file you created yourself to have the good teams each seasons this is why the "expansion" team signed the free agent. I do all that manually so it never happened to me since those teams doesn't exist the first day of the off season (I create the teams and build the new structure that day... except for the team removal that is done january first).

Yeah i cant use historical transactions by importing a league so ill just deal with the team history being off for the first season.
I did find that some players didn't go to the correct teams but it may be the 23 version i'm using. It wasnt to hard to sign the players to the correct teams by using retrosheet.
It sure does make it a lot easier as now i can concentrate on the starting pitchers, managers and owner changes.

I finished 1872 and i am very pleased with the results.
The team wins were pretty close to the real NA 1872 season.
Not perfect but i don't want an exact copy of a season just put the team in the ballpark.of what it did and didn't do.
If the real expansion gets fixed and the team histories are correct then
this may be the best version i've bought.

04-02-2024, 01:51 AM	#1
BaseballMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,415	Why are teams and players still missing for 1884? Why can we not have the actual teams for every year before 1900? What is the point of the fictional historical setup when the game doesnt have historical transactions before 1900 anyway? Why not let the player set up a fictional league structure? How hard would it be to delete or move teams if you don't want them where they are? Why not just use no playoffs for years in which only the NL league existed and have 1st place team playing 2nd place team? The easy setup really makes unnecessary work for players who prefer historical accuracy. I'm guessing that most players probably prefer starting in the modern era so whats the point of the fictional setup? I can understand not spending much time on the early baseball era but at least give us all the players and teams. If we were given the teams and the actual real expansion and league structure then the rookies would import to the correct teams and the rest would be our choice of whether to manually do historical transactions or just have fictional transactions. Last edited by BaseballMan; 04-04-2024 at 03:04 PM.

04-03-2024, 09:56 PM	#2
swampdragon Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Lonely Mountain Posts: 2,509	Second the motion. __________________ “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies." -- C.S. Lewis

04-07-2024, 01:18 PM	#3
LansdowneSt Global Moderator Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: From Duxbury, Mass residing Baltimore Posts: 7,020	It's because the game can't contract a team once created. What players are missing in your play through from 1871? __________________ Complete Universe Facegen Pack 2.0 (mine included) https://www.mediafire.com/file_premi...k_2.0.zip/file Just my Facegen Pack: https://www.mediafire.com/file_premi..._Pack.zip/file

04-07-2024, 05:22 PM	#5
LansdowneSt Global Moderator Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: From Duxbury, Mass residing Baltimore Posts: 7,020	Yes, for the MLB, it is true. Each of those 1800 teams is tied to a current MLB team. Not in real life but to make the game work. You can see which team in the team Settings page. __________________ Complete Universe Facegen Pack 2.0 (mine included) https://www.mediafire.com/file_premi...k_2.0.zip/file Just my Facegen Pack: https://www.mediafire.com/file_premi..._Pack.zip/file

04-08-2024, 10:03 PM	#9
LansdowneSt Global Moderator Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: From Duxbury, Mass residing Baltimore Posts: 7,020	I have the Virginians, Hoosiers of 1884, Kelly’s Killers and two Toledo teams I am fixing in the database as we speak. You’ll still need to manually add those teams but my goal is to get the players in the game on-time and with the correct stat lines. After that I will go through the PL and UA to audit them. One year each… but lots of players. If I can get it fixed up in the next couple weeks, thank AESP_Pres who was kind enough to get me a succinct list of the teams with issues so I could trial and error some fixes before starting on the arduous task of going through it all. __________________ Complete Universe Facegen Pack 2.0 (mine included) https://www.mediafire.com/file_premi...k_2.0.zip/file Just my Facegen Pack: https://www.mediafire.com/file_premi..._Pack.zip/file

04-09-2024, 02:41 PM	#11
Pelican Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2021 Location: Wilmington, Delaware Posts: 2,870	1884 is tough because the Union Association was considered a major league, making three total, and with too many franchises, teams moved, folded, and players jumped to new teams. Or, you have the case of my home town, Wilmington, Delaware, which had a minor league team dominate the [today's AAA equivalent] Eastern League, and then, in August replace a failed team in the Union Association. Their home field, Union Park, is my current neighborhood, built later in 1918 (the field is long-gone; but I live in Union Park Gardens). When the players realized they were not gettin raises, or more pay, for the additional games, many of them jumped ship. Which is sad, as they could have been a competitive team (based on how the players performed for other teams). Awhile back I started a laborious project of recreating the Union Association teams, based on the available players in the game (guys who played in the so-called major leagues, before, after, or during 1884), and what stats I could find for others. I got as far as the Quicksteps, Wilmington's team. Maybe some day, when I'm fully retired, I will attempt the other teams. __________________ Pelican OOTP 2020-? ”Hard to believe, Harry.” Last edited by Pelican; 04-09-2024 at 02:48 PM.

04-09-2024, 04:30 PM	#13
BaseballMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,415	I think i did use the Union Association and Players League for a simulation in one ootp version. Maybe 16 or 17. Don't remember for sure. I was able to play the season but if i recall correctly, the leaderboard couldnt be combined. Plus none of the other teams really had a shot at the Maroons in the UA. I would not mind having the leagues but if a league cant play at least 5 years im not too bothered by it. Deciding whether i should just make that personal rule a 10 year minimum and start in 1876. Theres still debate over whether the National Association should be considered a Major League or not. Not sure i would like having the early greats like George Wright, Ross Barnes and Al Spalding without much chance of making the Hall.

04-09-2024, 04:43 PM	#14
LansdowneSt Global Moderator Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: From Duxbury, Mass residing Baltimore Posts: 7,020	OOTP treats AA, UA and PL as major leagues. The 1884 and other players fell off in OOTP24 during the database upgrade because while their stats are there, their team isn’t and the mismatch blocked them from coming in. In testing work arounds to this dilemma, I think I found a way to get those players back in the game with their historical stat lines getting them to appear when they should and recalc assessing the line properly. Because for 19th c game players, that’s the important thing. … It’s just a slog to do. I’ll post here when it is done. Then, whatever patch comes after the post (as that patch would have an updated database pull), we can see if the fix worked for all those players. __________________ Complete Universe Facegen Pack 2.0 (mine included) https://www.mediafire.com/file_premi...k_2.0.zip/file Just my Facegen Pack: https://www.mediafire.com/file_premi..._Pack.zip/file Last edited by LansdowneSt; 04-09-2024 at 04:49 PM.

04-09-2024, 11:21 PM	#17
AESP_pres Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Province of Quebec Posts: 4,000	Yeah it's because it load only in 1872 (january first)... one advice that will make your life simple: at the end of the 1871 season (first day of the off season) set all the AI teams to not do any move or they will start signing the release players as free agent, you only need to do this that season because there is no trade database loaded yet in the game. You can uncheck it january first since the teams won't do unwanted transaction anymore. __________________ The FGs I did for the Universe Facegen pack if you don't want to download the complete file everytime the pack is updated. The complete set (1871 to 1978) Just the update. Last edited by AESP_pres; 04-09-2024 at 11:23 PM.

04-11-2024, 07:08 PM	#19
AESP_pres Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Province of Quebec Posts: 4,000	I forgot that you use a file you created yourself to have the good teams each seasons this is why the "expansion" team signed the free agent. I do all that manually so it never happened to me since those teams doesn't exist the first day of the off season (I create the teams and build the new structure that day... except for the team removal that is done january first). __________________ The FGs I did for the Universe Facegen pack if you don't want to download the complete file everytime the pack is updated. The complete set (1871 to 1978) Just the update.