My letter to Markus and Company - Page 7

Malleus Dei · 06-06-2004, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by phinne
I would guess that Markus et. al. would not agree with the characterization that OOTP is their "core business".

If so, then they're wrong, and that's exactly the kind of mistake that leads to a lot of software companies go broke. The core OOTP customer is not a generic sports game customer; he is, specifically, a fan of hardcore computer baseball simulations - not a role-player, not a soccer/basketball/rugby guy, but someone who buys and plays hardcore computer baseball simulations

Quote:

doubt he can support his claim that ITP is costing the company customers and customer loyalty.

I don't have to claim anything; the evidence supporting my statements is posted all over this board. Go look it up and read it yourself. heck, some of it is even posted here in this thread.

Quote:

I see no evidence that anyone is giving up OOTP just because v6 is a bit fubared.

Read the board; a lot of people are very frustrated right with OOTP6 and are worried about the future direction of OOTP right now. A lot of people are indeed ready to leave.

Quote:

I see no reason to assume customers are leaving, though clearly many are unhappy with some things.

Some people haven't bought OOTP6; some have bought it and have gone back to playing OOTP5; some have said that unless things change for the better then they are not going to buy OOTP7. Thease are bad signs, and the frustration level is very high right now; if you don't think so, then read the board more.

Bottom line: I'm not claiming anything about OOTP users that a person with open eyes can't clearly see if they spend some time reading this board.

EJ · 06-06-2004, 12:54 PM

Just to throw in my $.02US. I purchased v6 on Day 1, just like previous versions. However, like others, it is sitting idle, due to many of the issues detailed by MD and others in this thread. Apparently, v7 will be a long wait. For me, it will an even longer wait. I am 50 now and so much more patient than I was at 49. When I'm 51, with moss growing on my eyelids, I should have no trouble awaiting a trouble-free version of OOTP.

Silverbullet · 06-06-2004, 01:36 PM

I have been playing OOTP for awhile and I have found things that I like and things that I don't. OOTP6 is a fine game with some flaws and bugs to be addressed. I also have played Pure Sim for some time also. Both games have positives and negatives. The main difference for me is that the developer Shaun is always in contact with the Pure Sim community, therego not only making us feel like part of the development process (which we are) but establishing an excellent relationship. You will very rarely see posts like this one on the Pure Sim board turn inflamatory as this one has. "Simmers" become very passionate about their hobby and if a "company" wishes to keep there loyalty and business they should be in contact with them so they do not feel "left out".
Just my 02 cents.
Thank You for "listening".

Malleus Dei · 06-06-2004, 01:57 PM

Shaun is a nice guy, but not perfect by any means, and Markus used to be on this board a lot more than he is now.

Cooleyvol · 06-06-2004, 02:03 PM

I can honestly say that this is the first version of OOTP since I've been around (v2) that I havent bought on opening day of availability. I did test two versions, but v3 was bought on the first day.

I still don't have v6 and its mainly b/c of all the problems expressed on this board about it.

I'm happy with v5 until I hear that v6 is working as it should.

I'll have to agree with Mal on the ITP point; I feel it detracted from Markus' time/work on v6 and, thusly, HAD to detract from v6 overall.

Now the whole SIG situation makes me also think that once v7 comes out, it will be somewhat different from what I'm used to.

Time will tell, I guess, but until then, v5 for me.

JPWagner · 06-06-2004, 02:30 PM

I'm sure ITP took up time which could have been spent on OOTP, but the way ITP is now neglected, that reason doesn't carry much weight anymore and has not for quite some time....

Malleus Dei · 06-06-2004, 02:36 PM

ITP was a mistake because took away a lot of focus from OOTP, which has clearly suffered accordingly.

That's the point and the issue.

wireman · 06-06-2004, 03:28 PM

I guess somewhere there's an alternate universe in which there was no ITP and, as a result, OOTP6 was much better. I haven't yet been able to gain entry to that universe, so I have no way of knowing for sure.

Although, I concede, it's an obvious assumption that ITP has disrupted the flow of OOTP development. It's quite possible.

In any event, Mal made some excellent points in his initial post and expressed them well. And it just might light a fire under Markus, et al.

Now if I could just find some way to convince him that "STHU, newbie" is not a witty -- or effective -- rejoinder. (Yeah, Mal, you didn't start it; I know, I know).

DiMaggio5CF · 06-06-2004, 03:29 PM

I agree that OOTP 6 is a disappointment.

The game was released with bugs. And now, with the RL baseball season more than 1/3 over, I still can't pinch-hit for my DH properly.

I probably won't buy OOTP7, especially if it comes out toward the end of the RL baseball season.

OOTP6 has a lot of great features, but what's the point if none of them work?

I was hoping to see a few patches to fix these bugs in a timely manner, but there seems to be no rush by the team.

So if there's no rush to give us a bug-free game, then there's no rush on my part to buy any future versions of OOTP.

OOTP6 disappointed me; it proved that it wasn't worth my money. Now OOTP7 will have to do much more than normal; it will have to prove that it is worth the money.

I took it on blind faith that the team would put out a quality product and I got burned. No more will I buy the game right away. It will now have to prove to me that it is near perfect for me to buy it at all.

And if OOTP7 isn't good enough, I probably won't even check for OOTP8.

Malleus Dei · 06-06-2004, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wireman
Now if I could just find some way to convince him that "STHU, newbie" is not a witty -- or effective -- rejoinder. (Yeah, Mal, you didn't start it; I know, I know).

http://www.almost-leet.com/duxpics/stfu.jpg

Malleus Dei · 06-06-2004, 03:39 PM

I just got a PM that essentially blames all of OOTP6's problems on very poor beta testing. I didn't mention that in my letter because I have no evidence to support that argument, but it certainly could have been a contributing factor.

wireman · 06-06-2004, 03:40 PM

I take that to mean you're not convinced.

yabanci · 06-06-2004, 03:42 PM

I agree with the initial post in this thread, but my impression is they are making enough money and have enough sychophants around that constructive criticism like this is simply irrelevant.

phinne · 06-06-2004, 05:26 PM

A lot of this sounds like the old-timers getting riled up because things are changing in their little corner of the world and they don't like it. All this bashing of n00bs (which is the correct spelling by the way) and worry about new products hurting the products they have come to love. Things change and businesses grow. That is the way it will always be and I'm not sure it is worth the aggravation to rail against it.

Okay, I have nothing to lose and no one to impress so let's dance.

1. Neither Mr Dei or anyone else that has posted here has the slightest bit of factual evidence to support the claim that ITP hurt v6. None. The mere fact there are bugs in v6 proves nothing as there have been bugs in every release of OOTP. I have been playing since version 2 and find version 6 as playable as the others. Granted, I am not importing leagues or doing much fancy with it, but aside from minor bugs it works.

Plus, how do you even know how long it took to produce ITP or whether they hired another programmer for the task? You don't. You have not clue how much time Markus et al spent on ITP or on v6. Isn't it just possible that the new engine took time and attention from the other little details moreso than ITP? Isn't it just possible that weak beta testing allowed v6 to get published with more bugs than usual? Why the need to blame it on ITP?

2. I have read the boards. I have seen unhappy people like Mr Dei. However, ready to leave and leaving are two different things. Imho, a customer is not lost until they stop playing any product of the company. As long as you and others play v5, you are still customers. If you said, "I hate version 6 and I think ITP is to blame so I will never play OOTP again!" THEN I would say maybe their strategy has cost them a customer.

3. I did not realize Mr Dei was a marketing guru. I did not know he had done indepth studies of the OOTP buyers to be able to conclude with certainty who their customer base was. I'm sure you have all the statistics to back up your claim that the core OOTP customer is a hardcore baseball simulator fanatic that don't want anything else. I guess it is just not posslbe that the majority of the customers are casual gamers looking for some fun like me and don't really mind if it's not baseball.

4. Even if it IS correct that the core of the business is currently hardcore baseball guys, that does not mean it has to stay that way. Look, Markus et al are in this for the money, not to make you happy Mr Dei. To make more money and grow your business, you HAVE to expland your customer base. That means offering different products OTHER than OOTP. It worked just fine for Microsoft (yeah, let's get THAT debate going to!

). ITP was an attempt to grow as is their recent merger. I'm afraid more of the same will probably be coming whether you like it or not. You are the one who is wrong Mr Dei if you expect the company to be happy with just a small "core" of customers loyal to one specific game.

(dons his flame-******ant suit)

06-06-2004, 01:36 PM	#123
Silverbullet Minors (Single A) Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: New Jersey, USA Posts: 88	Interesting I have been playing OOTP for awhile and I have found things that I like and things that I don't. OOTP6 is a fine game with some flaws and bugs to be addressed. I also have played Pure Sim for some time also. Both games have positives and negatives. The main difference for me is that the developer Shaun is always in contact with the Pure Sim community, therego not only making us feel like part of the development process (which we are) but establishing an excellent relationship. You will very rarely see posts like this one on the Pure Sim board turn inflamatory as this one has. "Simmers" become very passionate about their hobby and if a "company" wishes to keep there loyalty and business they should be in contact with them so they do not feel "left out". Just my 02 cents. Thank You for "listening".

06-06-2004, 02:30 PM	#126
JPWagner Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 200	I'm sure ITP took up time which could have been spent on OOTP, but the way ITP is now neglected, that reason doesn't carry much weight anymore and has not for quite some time.... __________________ Formerly J P Falcon....changing screen names is what happens when you do not write down your password, forget it, and then change your email address!

06-06-2004, 03:28 PM	#128
wireman All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Harrisonburg VA Posts: 765	I guess somewhere there's an alternate universe in which there was no ITP and, as a result, OOTP6 was much better. I haven't yet been able to gain entry to that universe, so I have no way of knowing for sure. Although, I concede, it's an obvious assumption that ITP has disrupted the flow of OOTP development. It's quite possible. In any event, Mal made some excellent points in his initial post and expressed them well. And it just might light a fire under Markus, et al. Now if I could just find some way to convince him that "STHU, newbie" is not a witty -- or effective -- rejoinder. (Yeah, Mal, you didn't start it; I know, I know). __________________ "Sometimes the magic works and sometimes it doesn't."

06-06-2004, 03:40 PM	#132
wireman All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Harrisonburg VA Posts: 765	I take that to mean you're not convinced. __________________ "Sometimes the magic works and sometimes it doesn't."

06-06-2004, 12:54 PM	#122
EJ Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Pacific NW, USA Posts: 145	Just to throw in my $.02US. I purchased v6 on Day 1, just like previous versions. However, like others, it is sitting idle, due to many of the issues detailed by MD and others in this thread. Apparently, v7 will be a long wait. For me, it will an even longer wait. I am 50 now and so much more patient than I was at 49. When I'm 51, with moss growing on my eyelids, I should have no trouble awaiting a trouble-free version of OOTP.

06-06-2004, 02:03 PM	#125
Cooleyvol Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Union City, TN Posts: 6,383	I can honestly say that this is the first version of OOTP since I've been around (v2) that I havent bought on opening day of availability. I did test two versions, but v3 was bought on the first day. I still don't have v6 and its mainly b/c of all the problems expressed on this board about it. I'm happy with v5 until I hear that v6 is working as it should. I'll have to agree with Mal on the ITP point; I feel it detracted from Markus' time/work on v6 and, thusly, HAD to detract from v6 overall. Now the whole SIG situation makes me also think that once v7 comes out, it will be somewhat different from what I'm used to. Time will tell, I guess, but until then, v5 for me.

06-06-2004, 03:29 PM	#129
DiMaggio5CF All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 921	I agree that OOTP 6 is a disappointment. The game was released with bugs. And now, with the RL baseball season more than 1/3 over, I still can't pinch-hit for my DH properly. I probably won't buy OOTP7, especially if it comes out toward the end of the RL baseball season. OOTP6 has a lot of great features, but what's the point if none of them work? I was hoping to see a few patches to fix these bugs in a timely manner, but there seems to be no rush by the team. So if there's no rush to give us a bug-free game, then there's no rush on my part to buy any future versions of OOTP. OOTP6 disappointed me; it proved that it wasn't worth my money. Now OOTP7 will have to do much more than normal; it will have to prove that it is worth the money. I took it on blind faith that the team would put out a quality product and I got burned. No more will I buy the game right away. It will now have to prove to me that it is near perfect for me to buy it at all. And if OOTP7 isn't good enough, I probably won't even check for OOTP8.

06-06-2004, 03:42 PM	#133
yabanci Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 304	I agree with the initial post in this thread, but my impression is they are making enough money and have enough sychophants around that constructive criticism like this is simply irrelevant.

06-06-2004, 05:26 PM	#134
phinne Bat Boy Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 6	A lot of this sounds like the old-timers getting riled up because things are changing in their little corner of the world and they don't like it. All this bashing of n00bs (which is the correct spelling by the way) and worry about new products hurting the products they have come to love. Things change and businesses grow. That is the way it will always be and I'm not sure it is worth the aggravation to rail against it. Okay, I have nothing to lose and no one to impress so let's dance. 1. Neither Mr Dei or anyone else that has posted here has the slightest bit of factual evidence to support the claim that ITP hurt v6. None. The mere fact there are bugs in v6 proves nothing as there have been bugs in every release of OOTP. I have been playing since version 2 and find version 6 as playable as the others. Granted, I am not importing leagues or doing much fancy with it, but aside from minor bugs it works. Plus, how do you even know how long it took to produce ITP or whether they hired another programmer for the task? You don't. You have not clue how much time Markus et al spent on ITP or on v6. Isn't it just possible that the new engine took time and attention from the other little details moreso than ITP? Isn't it just possible that weak beta testing allowed v6 to get published with more bugs than usual? Why the need to blame it on ITP? 2. I have read the boards. I have seen unhappy people like Mr Dei. However, ready to leave and leaving are two different things. Imho, a customer is not lost until they stop playing any product of the company. As long as you and others play v5, you are still customers. If you said, "I hate version 6 and I think ITP is to blame so I will never play OOTP again!" THEN I would say maybe their strategy has cost them a customer. 3. I did not realize Mr Dei was a marketing guru. I did not know he had done indepth studies of the OOTP buyers to be able to conclude with certainty who their customer base was. I'm sure you have all the statistics to back up your claim that the core OOTP customer is a hardcore baseball simulator fanatic that don't want anything else. I guess it is just not posslbe that the majority of the customers are casual gamers looking for some fun like me and don't really mind if it's not baseball. 4. Even if it IS correct that the core of the business is currently hardcore baseball guys, that does not mean it has to stay that way. Look, Markus et al are in this for the money, not to make you happy Mr Dei. To make more money and grow your business, you HAVE to expland your customer base. That means offering different products OTHER than OOTP. It worked just fine for Microsoft (yeah, let's get THAT debate going to! ). ITP was an attempt to grow as is their recent merger. I'm afraid more of the same will probably be coming whether you like it or not. You are the one who is wrong Mr Dei if you expect the company to be happy with just a small "core" of customers loyal to one specific game. (dons his flame-******ant suit)