My letter to Markus and Company

[Malleus Dei]

Markus & Company:

1. ITP was a mistake, and never should have been even considered. In the business world, Rule One is NEVER LOSE YOUR FOCUS ON YOUR CORE BUSINESS. Your core business, OOTP, is noticeably worse off for ITP having been made. This is costing you customers and customer loyalty.

2. The board is screwed up beyond belief and doesn't work more often than it does work. Someone is simply not doing his job; it's not that difficult to run a message board properly with all features on. Take care of this ASAP.

3. New features should not have been introduced during the OOTP6 beta testing period. As a long-time OOTP beta tester (who was gone when 6 was tested) I know just how hard it is to figure out if things are working right in a beta test. Adding new features into the mix while beta testing is active is not wise. New feature introduction should be frozen during beta testing; sure, you can develop them, but don't add them to the test version until the beta testing of the current version is completed and you have a rock-solid and stable version to add them to.

4. OOTP6 needs work. There are not only annoying new bugs but there are a whole lot of annoying and well-known unaddressed long-term bugs, and there are a lot of features that needed to be added around version 4 (dollar figures vanishing when financials are off, for example; there are lots of others). Instead of adding a new engine - and I like the new engine, don't get me wrong - OOTP6 should have been devoted to getting all the bugs squashed and all the long-requested game features added, and then OOTP 6.2 or OOTP7 should have been the version with the new engine.

5. I don't need a manual, or even think that one is important, but I'm at one end of the OOTP user bell curve and the newbies are at the other. Reading the cries here has forced me to reluctantly conclude that the game really does, indeed, need a manual, and needs one fairly quickly.

Bottom line: fix the message board, release a manual, and freeze further OOTP6 development until you have squashed all the new bugs, and, more importantly, ALL of the unaddressed long-term bugs (there's a list, make sure that you cross all of them off before going on), and then after that go back and add the features that we have been lobbying for and that have needed to be added to the game since version 4. Yes, futher game development is fun and great, but squashing bugs is much more important and much more necessary, and after that you need to add the features that we have been yelling about for years. THEN move on. I know, that sounds a lot like real work, but your choices are either to do that or have a lot of angry customers with long-term grievances on your hands. The latter is a terrible business practice; in business, your customers are your lifeblood. If they aren't happy, then you're doing things wrong - and right now, they aren't happy, which should tell you everything that you need to know.

Summary bottom line: you need to pay more attention to your customers. Less flash, less other products, more bug fixing, more focus.

On the postive side, OOTP overall is nothing less than brilliant, and your work over the years has been outstanding - but that doesn't change the bottom line one bit.

Sincerely,

The senior member of this board

[Chappy]

I agree with everything except point #1.

Focusing on a side project for a period of time can have several good side effects (preventing burn-out, you get to see the primary project from a different perspective which can lead to new ideas), and the primary project doesn't necessarily have to suffer (from a quality standpoint; delays should be expected).

But I agree with the rest. Now let's get playoffs in a one league, two division setup already!

[jazzrack]

i disagree with basicly the whole thing, and frankly i am in no mood to explain why again


edit: ok i do agree with the manual thing, that should have been done a long time ago

[darkhorse]

Originally posted by Malleus Dei
Markus & Company:

1. ITP was a mistake, and never should have been even considered.

2. The board is screwed up beyond belief

3. New features should not have been introduced during the OOTP6 beta testing period.

4. OOTP6 needs work.

5. Reading the cries here has forced me to reluctantly conclude that the game really does, indeed, need a manual, and needs one fairly quickly.

Bottom line: fix the message board, release a manual, and freeze further OOTP6 development until you have squashed all the new bugs, and, more importantly, ALL of the unaddressed long-term bugs

Summary bottom line: you need to pay more attention to your customers. Less flash, less other products, more bug fixing, more focus.

On the postive side, OOTP overall is nothing less than brilliant, and your work over the years has been outstanding - but that doesn't change the bottom line one bit.

Sincerely,

The senior member of this board

Deja vu all over again.

[Joshv02]

Not worth it...

[Eugene Church]

Great post MD.

Markus needs to read this thread and respond to it.

It is the sentiment of a lot of people who love his creation.

Fix the things that need to be fixed first, then and only then, add new features.

And don't release a game until it is basically free of major flaws.

[Ragnar]

Just add H2H and then do whatever you want with the game.

[D Love]

I think you need to learn how to write a letter.

Also, using conclusory language doesn't help at all.

[Goodsox]

Good job Malleus and well said.

[cameronbelldina]

Waiting to see if we get any response from the "team"...

[redranger]

I agree with all that was said. Maybe not quite as harshly, but none the less agree. I have been an OOTP supporter since version 1 and have purchased every version. This is the first version that is still sitting on my computer untouched and unplayed due to the concerns I have about importing a long standing solo fictional league I have (11 years). Last thing I want to do is corrupt or ruin my league. These guys have almost become human to me. But until I know I can import cleanly with all the new features, I will continue to play ver5. If this never happens before ver7 rolls around, I probably will not purchase and continue with ver5.

[Dan Theman]

Originally posted by cameronbelldina
Waiting to see if we get any response from the "team"...

Isn't the team in Toledo, right now?

[cshigh]

If you are unhappy with the game, then don't play it, don't buy it, and don't bash those that enjoy the game.

[Applecorey]

Just when you thought OOTP took a giant step forward in the baseball simulation race Puresim has an opening...........

[PurdueBrad]

Originally posted by cshigh
If you are unhappy with the game, then don't play it, don't buy it, and don't bash those that enjoy the game.

CSHigh-

A couple quick things even though I don't know Malleus other than just having seen him around the boards. First, I don't recall in reading and re-reading his letter that he ever "bash[ed] those that enjoy the game." In fact, he was arguing that there needs to be a manual for those newer to the game.

Secondly, and perhaps most importantly, I think Malleus' frustration is in regards to various promises that were made about the readiness of the program. The group put a lot of effort into both ITP and OOTP6 and now, it looks painfully clear, that the time would've been better spent on their franchise product, v6.

Malleus as well as some of the others that you hear making valid complaints and posing important questions have been long-time defenders of the franchise since I can remember (I started with v4) and now the tables seem to have turned some. The newer members, who haven't experienced the greatness of v4 and v5 are defending v6 whereas some of the continuing problems from those two programs and some new ones have finally frustrated some of the staunchest defenders.

I'll admit, I have very few problems with the game right now and I know these things will be patched in the (hopeful: near) future. My three key problems/concerns:
1. Waivers in solo mode- For an on-line league, it'll work as is. In a solo league though it is brutal.

2. The control conversion bug- Yeah, it can't be anything but a bug that is converting so many pitchers and, more importantly, good pitchers and prospects to a '1' in control.

3. Some of the little loopy things that should've been caught, the DH sub bug and the dual player ejection bug during a brawl where, although both players are ejected, only one actually stays ejected.

The sim speed and everything else is fine to me but that is because I typically play out my solo games. Overall, the game is a decent effort but it does still need some work in major areas that were said to be ready/tested at release. I understand Malleus' frustration and CSHigh, don't take it as shots at you or the game, it is a long-time member expressing the frustration that many long-time players have in comparison to the fairly ease of release that v4 and v5 had.

[MrWorkrate]

I still don't understand the defensiveness of people on this board in regards to criticism of the game. There will always be people who have issues with a product, even if it was the most perfect game imaginable. People want different things from a product, and getting pissed off at people who show dislike for some reason is just as bad as ripping on someone for being a "fanboy" and saying how great the product is.

That being said, there are issues with the game, and whether it happens with a certain percentage of the population or not, the point is still that bugs (for the things that are bugs) are an issue. If you can't pinch run for the DH or you can't click on a player on the trade screen without the game crashing, that's a bug. That's a problem with the game, and no matter how good it plays for those who don't have this happen to them, it's a good policy to fix something that is, for lack of better terms, "broken" for a percentage of the paying public.

For those who aren't having any problems with the game, please don't criticise those who do. Just enjoy the game, and if you wish to leave your comments to Markus and the developing team that you enjoy the game, please continue to do so. If I were a developer, I'd love to hear those comments all the time, especially if the usual comments that I hear are "why doesn't this work" or "you know what you should do to make the game better?"

As for Malleus' curt comments (although "curt" probably isn't the best word), it's a sign of frustration from one of the senior members of the community and a longtime OOTP player. We're not talking about someone who picked up OOTP6 out of nowhere and started to complain. I've found that some of the strongest criticisms of the game have come from longtime OOTP veterans who are seeing the same problems recur from one edition to the next. I've been an OOTP player since version 4, and at first, I used to get mad at people who criticised the game because I loved the game (and I still do). But when certain things (that seem to be simple enough to be fixed, or at least addressed) seem to go ignored, then frustration sets in. Patches are great - but patches should fix problems without causing more in the process.

Don't tell people not to buy the game if they don't like it. If people are having trouble with the game, they already bought the thing, and in a large percentage of the cases, they like the game, but it's not working for them the way that it should.

I honestly don't know what the best solution would be to handle the bugs and the errors. Maybe a larger beta testing team. I don't see the harm in having a large beta test team, considering the minimal cost involved (make beta testers pay for the product - which they may do already, I don't know). A larger volume of beta testers would allow for a greater variety of bugs to be found.

In short, don't think that Markus one day is going to read the message boards, find too many threads complaining about the game, and just quit. That seems to be the feeling of some people. Markus is a professional, and has dealt with heavy criticism for many years now regarding this series.

If people have a complaint, let them complain. If you're not having the same problem, be thankful, and continue to enjoy the product.

[PurdueBrad]

Originally posted by MrWorkrate
I still don't understand the defensiveness of people on this board in regards to criticism of the game. There will always be people who have issues with a product, even if it was the most perfect game imaginable. People want different things from a product, and getting pissed off at people who show dislike for some reason is just as bad as ripping on someone for being a "fanboy" and saying how great the product is.

That being said, there are issues with the game, and whether it happens with a certain percentage of the population or not, the point is still that bugs (for the things that are bugs) are an issue. If you can't pinch run for the DH or you can't click on a player on the trade screen without the game crashing, that's a bug. That's a problem with the game, and no matter how good it plays for those who don't have this happen to them, it's a good policy to fix something that is, for lack of better terms, "broken" for a percentage of the paying public.

For those who aren't having any problems with the game, please don't criticise those who do. Just enjoy the game, and if you wish to leave your comments to Markus and the developing team that you enjoy the game, please continue to do so. If I were a developer, I'd love to hear those comments all the time, especially if the usual comments that I hear are "why doesn't this work" or "you know what you should do to make the game better?"

As for Malleus' curt comments (although "curt" probably isn't the best word), it's a sign of frustration from one of the senior members of the community and a longtime OOTP player. We're not talking about someone who picked up OOTP6 out of nowhere and started to complain. I've found that some of the strongest criticisms of the game have come from longtime OOTP veterans who are seeing the same problems recur from one edition to the next. I've been an OOTP player since version 4, and at first, I used to get mad at people who criticised the game because I loved the game (and I still do). But when certain things (that seem to be simple enough to be fixed, or at least addressed) seem to go ignored, then frustration sets in. Patches are great - but patches should fix problems without causing more in the process.

Don't tell people not to buy the game if they don't like it. If people are having trouble with the game, they already bought the thing, and in a large percentage of the cases, they like the game, but it's not working for them the way that it should.

I honestly don't know what the best solution would be to handle the bugs and the errors. Maybe a larger beta testing team. I don't see the harm in having a large beta test team, considering the minimal cost involved (make beta testers pay for the product - which they may do already, I don't know). A larger volume of beta testers would allow for a greater variety of bugs to be found.

In short, don't think that Markus one day is going to read the message boards, find too many threads complaining about the game, and just quit. That seems to be the feeling of some people. Markus is a professional, and has dealt with heavy criticism for many years now regarding this series.

If people have a complaint, let them complain. If you're not having the same problem, be thankful, and continue to enjoy the product.

[Jason]

Originally posted by MrWorkrate
If people have a complaint, let them complain. If you're not having the same problem, be thankful, and continue to enjoy the product.

OK...will do.

Likewise, those of us who enjoy the game and would like to say good things about the game should be free to make those posts without those who are continually griping slamming them as "homers" or "butt kissers" or "company men" or "fanboys."

You shut up, we'll shut up.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Malleus Dei
Sincerely,

The senior member of this board

Um...according to the list of when members joined, you're not even one of the first 100 to join. How are you the senior member? Are you speaking in terms of your age?

[Chappy]

Originally posted by Dale And Eli's Dad
You shut up, we'll shut up.

I don't think anyone should shut up; give praise where necessary and suggest improvements where there is room. Is that not the purpose of this board?