My letter to Markus and Company

[cknox0723]

In all seriousness - I agree with MD's basic point, and I strongly believe that Markus should allow for the community's help when it involves the minutia that the supposed fanboys don't see as bugs, per se. Things like:

-the play-by-play
-the scouting reports
-the news stories

I'm sure I could continue, but I don't want to appear overly negative. OOTP has provided me far more bang for my buck than most anything I've purchased. But it can be greatly improved quite easily, and envisioning that is exactly what drives someone like Malleus Dei to make such a post. (Mal, if I've misstated your intentions, my apologies - I couldn't quite articulate that previous sentence as I wanted to.) Hopefully, this <b>will</b> lead to some action on Markus's part.

Craig

[Malleus Dei]

Originally posted by cknox0723
But it can be greatly improved quite easily, and envisioning that is exactly what drives someone like Malleus Dei to make such a post. (Mal, if I've misstated your intentions, my apologies - I couldn't quite articulate that previous sentence as I wanted to.)

No, you got it right. I'm trying to help make sure that the game goes in the right direction, keeps its customer base happy, and keeps getting better.

Unfortunately there are some here who seem quite opposed to that.

[Dargone]

Guuuhhh...

[MrWorkrate]

Originally posted by And1pg2
I ain't even going to complain. All of the people wanted the game out so quick and everything. But now that it's out you are all mad about the game. Maybe next time you should just shut up and wait until the game is out instead of begging for it.

Careful where the fingers are pointed.

I think that you'll find that most of the people with valid, well-thought criticisms about the game weren't the ones who rushed the board hourly asking why the game hadn't been released, despite the fact no set due date was given.

[rem]

Well you got to admire DAED for taking on, like, the entire world even if he is completely wrong.

I certainly think that in this case the community has the right to whine. Aside from the customer aspect, without the rosters, face packs, etc. sales would probably be a fifth of what they’ve been. I apologize in advance, if being the relative “newbie” that I am, I am unaware of some sort of under the table settlement.

[D Love]

Why does everyone give MD the time of day? Everything he says is inflammatory. Simply the fact that he not only refers to himself as the senior member of the board (which is technically incorrect and nonetheless wholly irrelevant) should show him for what he is.

This is the same guy who actually made the statement that unless you used HIS names file, any attempt to run a historical sim using fictious players would be inaccurate. It's all nonsense.

If a friend told you about some guy who stroked his ego by tooting his horn on some simulation game's message board, wouldn't you be laughing at the poor chap? So why do you give him any respect or attention on this board?

His letter was not even a letter. It simply listed a bunch of complaints, not all of which have to even do with the game, made conclusory statements (i.e., he did not provide an explanation for how and why things were wrong) and made no attempt at constructive criticism.

Let's be honest, if your true goal is to make sure the game isn't falling off its tracks (let's not get into the fact that MD won't even acknowledge that this is HIS interpretation of where the game should go or the fact that he probably believes he knows better than Markus what OOTP should be doing), wouldn't you have written directly to Markus and then simply posted a summary of the letter OR, if you were going to post the letter, wouldn't you have made yourself sound articulate and level-headed?

You usually don't throw subtle or not-so-subtle insults and putdowns into sincere letters.

So there, give him all the attention he wants. He's not trying to do anything for the good of the game. He wants attention. The game could be flawless and you'd still hear him whining about something.

But I'll give him kudos as I don't think I can stomach going to these boards anymore. What happened to interesting discussions of how the game works and what not?

[cknox0723]

D Love, I can certainly see some of your points, though I do think you're intentionally looking at some of MD's posts the wrong way. I personally don't see him as combative unless someone else points it out, but I'm not one to argue on these boards, either. But as for your last point -- interesting discussions of the game -- my response would be that we can't have them, because we don't know how the game works. That, of course, is hyperbole, but there's some truth to it. Heck, I've played this game plenty, but I don't know the effects of or difference between stuff and movement.

As always, I don't want to sound overly negative, but it's not too hard to find big flaws in a fantastic game. MD, if nothing else, wants the game improved. Maybe he's a bit too blunt, but he says a lot of things that I agree with. <i>Someone</i>'s got to say them, or else we'll be stuck with some bugs into perpetuity.

Craig

[Bobbuttons]

Originally posted by D Love
Why does everyone give MD the time of day? Everything he says is inflammatory. Simply the fact that he not only refers to himself as the senior member of the board (which is technically incorrect and nonetheless wholly irrelevant) should show him for what he is.

This is the same guy who actually made the statement that unless you used HIS names file, any attempt to run a historical sim using fictious players would be inaccurate. It's all nonsense.

If a friend told you about some guy who stroked his ego by tooting his horn on some simulation game's message board, wouldn't you be laughing at the poor chap? So why do you give him any respect or attention on this board?

His letter was not even a letter. It simply listed a bunch of complaints, not all of which have to even do with the game, made conclusory statements (i.e., he did not provide an explanation for how and why things were wrong) and made no attempt at constructive criticism.

Let's be honest, if your true goal is to make sure the game isn't falling off its tracks (let's not get into the fact that MD won't even acknowledge that this is HIS interpretation of where the game should go or the fact that he probably believes he knows better than Markus what OOTP should be doing), wouldn't you have written directly to Markus and then simply posted a summary of the letter OR, if you were going to post the letter, wouldn't you have made yourself sound articulate and level-headed?

You usually don't throw subtle or not-so-subtle insults and putdowns into sincere letters.

So there, give him all the attention he wants. He's not trying to do anything for the good of the game. He wants attention. The game could be flawless and you'd still hear him whining about something.

But I'll give him kudos as I don't think I can stomach going to these boards anymore. What happened to interesting discussions of how the game works and what not?

As much as it pains me to defend Mal.....

In this case he was mentioning problems that not only have to do with version 6 but other endeavors of the company, which is why he directed it to not only Markus, but the company.

[Malleus Dei]

Congratulations, D Love! Once again, you got everything completely wrong.

[Eugene Church]

Originally posted by D Love
Why does everyone give MD the time of day? Everything he says is inflammatory.


What happened to interesting discussions of how the game works and what not?

You are right, that MD is inflammatory...he is at times...but I disagree that everything he says is inflammatory. He knows the game well and He often make very knowledgeable observations about the game. He often responds to those of us on the board who need help or information. He can be inflammatory when he is attacked in an ungentlemanly fashion. If the discussion is kept at a reasonable level of decorum, MD usually is no problem. He does have what seems like a quick temper. I have been tempted at times to gently suggest that he be a little more tolerant of our ignorance of the game and our seemingly ignorant questions.

You are right, it is nice to have discussions of how the game works. It is also a good thing when someone has something of importance that Markus needs to know. There seems to be quite a few of us that agree with MD in this thread. I have always been willing to wait until the game is ready to be released. I don't want it until it has been thoroughly tested. I have been requesting since OOTP3 for inclusion of the many normal, everyday plays and game strategies that are missing from the game...and expected to see them in OOTP4 or maybe OOTP5. This hasn't happened and I think it is time for Markus to fix the things he can fix or tell us it is not possible to fix them. He should not add new features when he has so many things from previous versions that he needs to address. New features just add to the problem by creating more things that have to be fixed. Take one version and get it as close to perfect as is possible. I would gladly pay another $35 to get my favorites in the game: realistic play-by-play results in the game where players drop throws, drop foul balls and infield flies, allow the poor hard-charging rightfielder or leftfielder catch one of those many foul flies, allow the SS and 2B catch a foul fly, have errors on bunts, be able to steal with two strikes, occasionally get thrown out at second stretching a single (it almost never happens...players get thrown out more often at third than second in the game), steal home, allow infielders to throw the ball away at second, third and home and quite a few other plays that are missing. It can't be a realistic baseball game without these basic plays. These should have been in OOTP4 or OOTP5 and definitely in OOTP6. I have politely asked for these in the last two years. Sorry for the long, rambling tirade...I am just frustrated now and would like for Markus to answer the many inquiries from the dedicated lovers of this marvelous game he has created. We just want some communication. I'm sure each one of us has our own personal desires for the game and he needs to know them. That's why Malleus Dei posted this thread...because he is like a lot of us...loves the game...and wants to see it make even better. Nothing more...nothing less.

You can disagree with him, but do it in a courteous manner...and don't degrade each other with personal attacks. We don't need that on this board. Both of you are wrong when this happens.

[Oliman37]

mal had 100 good points, but the comments like the following destroy all credibility:

"Dale and Eli's Alleged Dad..."

what kind of an ass has to go after a man's family? then go after him for starting a flame war. that's where you come off as a complete jerk, mal.

[Bobbuttons]

Originally posted by Oliman37
mal had 100 good points, but the comments like the following destroy all credibility:

"Dale and Eli's Alleged Dad..."

what kind of an ass has to go after a man's family? then go after him for starting a flame war. that's where you come off as a complete jerk, mal.

Because Mal has a habit of starting threads or posting in them with a good point or two, and then should somebody reply with an opposing view he resorts to personal attacks and name calling.

[Treches]

Originally posted by Dale And Eli's Dad
No, if you were trying to get the game improved you would be contacting Markus and the rest of the development team in person instead of posting on a public board to make yourself look good. You're trying to fan the flames of adoration by the people who believe it's fashionable to try and slam the game because in their perverse logic they think publicly pointing out flaws will enhance the image of OOTP.

Now, if you want to help, take your own suggestions to Markus and quit trying to make yourself look good on this board you arrogant egomaniac.

It would convenient if once for all people focused on the posts and not the poster, post counts or supposed motivations. That's all irrelevant; it's the post what matters. And truth is that is difficult to disagree with the original post. Contacting Markus in person? This game has improved over the years in no small part due to people voicing their discontent with the game (or how things were handled) on the boards. There may be too many threads regarding the same subject, but maybe is because people feel they are not being paid enough attention lately.

[phinne]

Aside from the ad-hominem attacks, this has been an interesting discussion. Mr Dei made some cogent points in his original posts, but I think his first point about ITP is weak at best.

If you go by the premise that the "core business" of this company is sports simulations rather than one game called OOTP then you can see where a game like ITP makes sense. Mr Dei certainly is entitled to his opinion, but I would guess that Markus et. al. would not agree with the characterization that OOTP is their "core business". Perhaps at one time it was, but I am pretty sure they would like to move beyond that one program.

Further, unless Mr Dei is privvy to sales records from the company, I doubt he can support his claim that ITP is costing the company customers and customer loyalty. He's still here and I see no evidence that anyone is giving up OOTP just because v6 is a bit fubared. In addition, there are certainly going to be some new customers generated by ITP that perhaps will then buy OOTP. I see no reason to assume customers are leaving, though clearly many are unhappy with some things.



I wonder why I assume Malleus Dei is a he? Hrm...

[holyroller]

Well, I can only speak for myself, but I will be leaving if the next release is on a par with v6. In the past I have been very forgiving because the vast majority of my concerns have been addressed quickly, but that does not appear to be the case at present. Maybe you are correct in assuming that ITP will have brought in new customers, but the customers like myself who are being driven away are the customers Markus should be most keen to please. Those would be the die-hards. New customers are all well and good, but if you bring them in at the expense of those who have been loyal and supportive for a long time, what do you gain? As I stated in another thread on this topic, my main worry here is that the priority is being changed from pleasing those who will buy the game every single year to bringing in new throngs. If that is the case, I can see no other possible outcome but the game suffering as a result.

[JPWagner]

Before this gets locked, I just want to point out that I agree with Mal's point on ITP....ITP was so poorly thought out, and has been ignored for so long, that it has become quite embarassing over at the ITP forum....there is a small core group of people who actually like ITP and their questions and pleas go unoticed (except a rare visit from Henry) by Markus and Co.....I have spent more time over at the ITP forum, watching these people try to get answers than I have playing the lousy game....so, I hope that someone from the team gets over to the ITP board and start providing the customers there with some attention...not for my sake, because I already removed the game from my hard drive, but for those who still want to get something decent for their 20 bucks...it's damn shameful!

[adventureran]

Overall this has been a very good thread, personal attacks aside, and I would hope it is not locked. No one is making derrogatory comments towards OOTPD or its employees.

There have been some well thought out posts, by some very well-respected members of this community. And it is the members of this community that really drive the sales of OOTP, or have in the past.

It is the members who create the add-ons, the face packs, logos, etc. It is the members who spend hours and hours creating, running and playing in online leagues.

And it is these same members who should be permitted to speak. If we don't agree with a post, we should also have the right to post a rebuttal.

This thread has been an excellent summarization of the many threads already in existance regarding the dissactisfaction by a number of members of this community and reported "bugs."

If the personal attacks can cease, this thread should not be locked. Let's not look at WHO is doing the posting or what their signature is. Rather let's concentrate on what is being said.

[Hank Greenberg]

A few things:

1) What was the delay for release for, the game has not been fully tested and found to be ready. The "patch's" havn't been fully tested either I assume.

They ran too small of a Beta program IMHO, they couldn't test nearly enough platforms or different scenarios and thus, many bugs were left.

2) Too many obvious bugs were left, the news section not giving the right team names, DH bug, ejection bug, control import bug, how can they not notice these right away, unless they didn't have enough Betas of course.

3) Things have needed work since v. 4...hell maybe even 3, that havn't been fixed, PbP needs work, awards voting, all-star selection, news section...still unaddressed.

4) No H2H, at some point it was a week or two after release, its been how long now?

5) No manual...we have all these new features but a lot cant use them since they dont know how.

I really think ITP and or the new engine was a mistake. I really like the new engine, however, Markus obviously did not have enough time to develop it for one reason or another. With V.6 it seems as if he bit off more then he could chew and many things appear to be half done....it'll take a lot of patch's that make the game work right (including PbP and news section enhancements before along with already promised stuff) before I go and buy V.7 blindly like I have been.

[cshigh]

Originally posted by adventureran
Overall this has been a very good thread, personal attacks aside, and I would hope it is not locked. No one is making derrogatory comments towards OOTPD or its employees.

There have been some well thought out posts, by some very well-respected members of this community. And it is the members of this community that really drive the sales of OOTP, or have in the past.

It is the members who create the add-ons, the face packs, logos, etc. It is the members who spend hours and hours creating, running and playing in online leagues.

And it is these same members who should be permitted to speak. If we don't agree with a post, we should also have the right to post a rebuttal.

This thread has been an excellent summarization of the many threads already in existance regarding the dissactisfaction by a number of members of this community and reported "bugs."

If the personal attacks can cease, this thread should not be locked. Let's not look at WHO is doing the posting or what their signature is. Rather let's concentrate on what is being said.

Good post adventuran. The personal attacks will not cease from those that disagree with what others have to say, especially those that like the game. Those that like the game are accused of being either a newbie, a fanboy, or other things. The people that like the game are put down, attacked in threads, and are exposed by those that seek attention and get there thrills on from a message board.

As far as the game is concerned. Version 6 may not be what others hoped it would be. It works great for me, but I am not concerned about H2H, etc. like some others are. I like the new engine, and the added financials part of the game. I know improvements to this part of the game are needed.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally posted by Oliman37
that's where you come off as a complete jerk, mal.

http://www.foundingfathers.info/stor...dsden-flap.gif