Ethical or Fair? - Page 2

tward13 · 04-30-2004, 04:43 PM

But there are ML rules against this. Also in the majors players will negotiate no trade clauses to prevent their being traded to teams they don't like. OOTP desn't have this yet.

Tekneek · 04-30-2004, 04:48 PM

If you have an agreement with another team for them to sign this unhappy free agent and then trade him back to you, then you are in conflict with the game. It's as simple as that. The problem is with the arrangement of the deal before the guy even signs. If someone signs him and you have to make a REAL trade for him, involving meeting his real market value, then you may have a point to dispute.

Still, needing to keep players through at least the first 1/3 of the new season is a good rule.

obaslg · 05-01-2004, 09:20 AM

We have a rule prohibiting trading any FA until July of the year he's signed. It stops things like this, as well as stopping general sign-and-trade strategies.

Ol'Drippy · 05-01-2004, 02:05 PM

Offtopic again, but the only reason that the Chargers picked Manning as opposed to picking Gallery or Fitzgerald was to keep Manning from the Raiders. If the Chargers picked up someone else, or even traded the pick to another team, there was the chance that the Raiders would pick Manning.

Crapshoot · 05-01-2004, 02:46 PM

Well, Im going to disagree- in an online league, you're competing with people. If being a middleman means that I pick up an extra prospect and I consider that worth you retaining your player, its just another example of negotiation...

Go Tribe · 05-01-2004, 03:01 PM

actually you ARE in conflict with the game. the GAME decides who a UFA will talk to, not the owners. if a guy doesn't want to talk to your team for whatever reason, that should be the end of it - doing a sign and trade is exploiting a loophole that your online league hasn't closed yet

Tekneek · 05-01-2004, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Go Tribe
actually you ARE in conflict with the game. the GAME decides who a UFA will talk to, not the owners. if a guy doesn't want to talk to your team for whatever reason, that should be the end of it - doing a sign and trade is exploiting a loophole that your online league hasn't closed yet

Exploiting a loophole in the game. A player who did not want to sign with you, but through owner collusion has been sent back, will be very unhappy. The rest of the players will be very unhappy. The union will be outraged. The owner/GM responsible for it will create labor unrest and problems for the entire league.

Of course, I can see how you can make the case if this is an historical league (but then you would not have free agents during the time that owners controlled everything), or a fictional league where there is no union (but again, why would you have free agents then?).

obaslg · 05-01-2004, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Well, Im going to disagree- in an online league, you're competing with people. If being a middleman means that I pick up an extra prospect and I consider that worth you retaining your player, its just another example of negotiation...

I don't think there's anything unethical about it if there's no league rule about it, but I think there should be a league rule, b/c it's unrealistic for a team to trade players right after signing them and then face no repercussions in later years when trying to sign other players.

JDOldSchool · 05-01-2004, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Go Tribe
actually i'm pretty sure it's actually a rule in MLB that you can't do this - i think you have to hold onto a newly signed FA til at least june 1st

June 15th, actually...

And the player has the right to waive the automatic no trade clause if he wishes.

Godard · 05-01-2004, 05:54 PM

Not oreos, but can the game be redesigned so that each player carries a "cookie" that says which teams he won't play for -- something like a no-trade clause.

Maybe the cookie could last for 6 months, or a year, or many years.

But it would prevent problems like the sign & trade deals, as well as add quite a bit more flavor to the game.

drprestwood · 05-01-2004, 08:01 PM

The Manning situation is different. That's the draft. He's talking about FAs.

DaveJstice · 05-01-2004, 08:11 PM

That's why MLB has a rule about this sort of thing, saying that you can't trade him until June 15th. And this just might be me, but if you have a player that doesn't want to sign for you, then don't sign him. Find another strategy, or another player to fit your needs. That's the fun of it, is to have a plan B or a plan C for all this stuff.

Ragnar · 05-01-2004, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jonzard
If there is a player in your online league that does not like your organization, do you consider it fair to make a deal where another team where they sign him and trade him to you for some token payment.

I don't see any problem with this. If I were the middle man I would certainly ask for something nice in return or i'd never do it.

I don't see what the big deal is.

crackpott · 05-02-2004, 04:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JDOldSchool
June 15th, actually...

And the player has the right to waive the automatic no trade clause if he wishes.

Do you have a link to this? I know it exists, but it's one of the harder things I've ever tried proving...

crackpott · 05-02-2004, 04:06 AM

ah ha!!! Never mind! got one. I'm so proud.

http://groups.msn.com/BaseballForum/...tionrules.msnw

Very last line, people.

Jonzard · 05-02-2004, 04:19 AM

Good find

Artermis · 05-02-2004, 01:21 PM

What is wrong with exploiting a loophole? It is done all the time in all the major sports. It is the job of the union or baseball to close the loopholes next time around.

I am not saying I am for doing this because some people will have morals and some will not (for instance tanking...it happens all the time in sports) and if you think someone has no morals then dont make any deals with them and/or take it to the league presidents/commishs office about this.

How many of you are in leagues where you can trade draft picks? You cannot in real baseball....so morally by trading them you are exploiting a loophole in the "computer" game because the "computer" game does not allow the trading of picks.

Just my thought on this whole thing.

Art

I Am The Game · 05-02-2004, 02:48 PM

Let's also remember that it's been said it's quite random whether a player like your organization or not. The reason Roger Clemens wouldn't like the Red Sox in MLB when he hit the market (the first time) is because Duquette was a douchebag. We don't have those elements here in OOTP. And if you're making a fair trade based on that, I don't see anything wrong with it.

Tekneek · 05-02-2004, 02:49 PM

How can you be exploiting a loophole in the computer game if it does not let you do it? The league has decided to work around a computer loophole by authorizing the trading of draft picks. Exploiting a loophole in the computer game is finding a way around an intended aspect of the computer game (ie, "I don't want to play for you" and convincing someone else to sign them and trade them to you to cheat that aspect of the computer's player "AI").

05-01-2004, 09:20 AM	#23
obaslg All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 887	We have a rule prohibiting trading any FA until July of the year he's signed. It stops things like this, as well as stopping general sign-and-trade strategies. __________________ Realy good musition of many insterments, including the hyperbolic vitriol.

05-01-2004, 02:05 PM	#24
Ol'Drippy Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 190	Offtopic again, but the only reason that the Chargers picked Manning as opposed to picking Gallery or Fitzgerald was to keep Manning from the Raiders. If the Chargers picked up someone else, or even traded the pick to another team, there was the chance that the Raiders would pick Manning. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Ben Franklin

05-01-2004, 02:46 PM	#25
Crapshoot Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: watching: DArwin's missing link in action Posts: 3,112	Well, Im going to disagree- in an online league, you're competing with people. If being a middleman means that I pick up an extra prospect and I consider that worth you retaining your player, its just another example of negotiation... __________________ Senior Senor Member of the OOTP Boards Pittsburgh Playmates- OTBL

05-01-2004, 05:54 PM	#30
Godard Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 48	Can we give cookies to the players? Not oreos, but can the game be redesigned so that each player carries a "cookie" that says which teams he won't play for -- something like a no-trade clause. Maybe the cookie could last for 6 months, or a year, or many years. But it would prevent problems like the sign & trade deals, as well as add quite a bit more flavor to the game. __________________ David Gorgos Nick Punto!

05-02-2004, 04:06 AM	#35
crackpott Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Toronto Posts: 2,961	ah ha!!! Never mind! got one. I'm so proud. http://groups.msn.com/BaseballForum/...tionrules.msnw Very last line, people. __________________ Abandoned Planet - Check it out. The photos don't suck anymore.

04-30-2004, 04:43 PM	#21
tward13 All Star Starter Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,965	But there are ML rules against this. Also in the majors players will negotiate no trade clauses to prevent their being traded to teams they don't like. OOTP desn't have this yet.

04-30-2004, 04:48 PM	#22
Tekneek Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: GA, USA Posts: 455	If you have an agreement with another team for them to sign this unhappy free agent and then trade him back to you, then you are in conflict with the game. It's as simple as that. The problem is with the arrangement of the deal before the guy even signs. If someone signs him and you have to make a REAL trade for him, involving meeting his real market value, then you may have a point to dispute. Still, needing to keep players through at least the first 1/3 of the new season is a good rule.

05-01-2004, 03:01 PM	#26
Go Tribe All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 1,534 Infractions: 1/0 (0)	actually you ARE in conflict with the game. the GAME decides who a UFA will talk to, not the owners. if a guy doesn't want to talk to your team for whatever reason, that should be the end of it - doing a sign and trade is exploiting a loophole that your online league hasn't closed yet

05-01-2004, 08:01 PM	#31
drprestwood All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 1,501	The Manning situation is different. That's the draft. He's talking about FAs.

05-01-2004, 08:11 PM	#32
DaveJstice Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: May 2003 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 26	That's why MLB has a rule about this sort of thing, saying that you can't trade him until June 15th. And this just might be me, but if you have a player that doesn't want to sign for you, then don't sign him. Find another strategy, or another player to fit your needs. That's the fun of it, is to have a plan B or a plan C for all this stuff.

05-02-2004, 04:19 AM	#36
Jonzard Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,647	Good find __________________ For a scientist must indeed be freely imaginative and yet skeptical, creative and yet a critic. There is a sense in which he must be free, but another in which his thought must be very precisely regimented; there is poetry in science, but also a lot of bookkeeping. — Sir Peter B. Medawar FTB

05-02-2004, 01:21 PM	#37
Artermis Minors (Single A) Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 57	What is wrong with exploiting a loophole? It is done all the time in all the major sports. It is the job of the union or baseball to close the loopholes next time around. I am not saying I am for doing this because some people will have morals and some will not (for instance tanking...it happens all the time in sports) and if you think someone has no morals then dont make any deals with them and/or take it to the league presidents/commishs office about this. How many of you are in leagues where you can trade draft picks? You cannot in real baseball....so morally by trading them you are exploiting a loophole in the "computer" game because the "computer" game does not allow the trading of picks. Just my thought on this whole thing. Art

05-02-2004, 02:48 PM	#38
I Am The Game All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Red Sox Nation Posts: 691	Let's also remember that it's been said it's quite random whether a player like your organization or not. The reason Roger Clemens wouldn't like the Red Sox in MLB when he hit the market (the first time) is because Duquette was a douchebag. We don't have those elements here in OOTP. And if you're making a fair trade based on that, I don't see anything wrong with it.

05-02-2004, 02:49 PM	#39
Tekneek Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: GA, USA Posts: 455	How can you be exploiting a loophole in the computer game if it does not let you do it? The league has decided to work around a computer loophole by authorizing the trading of draft picks. Exploiting a loophole in the computer game is finding a way around an intended aspect of the computer game (ie, "I don't want to play for you" and convincing someone else to sign them and trade them to you to cheat that aspect of the computer's player "AI").